GG status after Epstein death

Discussion in 'Hangar Talk' started by denverpilot, Aug 15, 2019.

  1. denverpilot

    denverpilot Taxi to Parking

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    Long ago a thread here was closed out of concern her lawyers wouldn’t like our speculations.

    Turns out they’re true and becoming more well documented by the day. Go figure.

    https://www.wired.com/story/global-girl-jeffrey-epstein-and-the-lolita-express/

    Posted without other commentary other than the warning below.

    Private jets with location privacy can be a good thing used for good purposes, or a bad thing used to hurt people and make them disappear. Especially weaker people with no options.

    I’m sure y’all will figure out how to get this thread closed too... but the facts are coming out on this one.
     
  2. WannFly

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  3. hindsight2020

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    As I've said before, she got off easy. Don't know why it's so controversial.

    Actually I do know => The problem is all these white knights/beta cuckolds/Capts-save-a-... will always be averse to calling out female predators for what they are. Aviation is riddled with nerdy beta men, their relative apologist tendencies within the demographic is not surprising. At any rate, that kind of sex-weaponizing defensive notching is part and parcel of the conniving and survival playbook of the female predator. A true exemplification of the "hate the game not the playa" shtick in action if I ever saw one.

    I doubt the NY DA will have enough political capital to go after these female facilitators, demographic which she belongs dead smack in the middle of. I do hope they pursue it though. My only dog in the fight is to keep her public persona from cementing any king of legitimate credibility as an aviation professional, especially given the outright blood diamonds that are her flight training and type ratings.

    She's a sideshow in the Epstein saga though, like the Nascar wife and the other female handlers of this "Eyes Wide Shut" international cabal. They will likely escape the fallout, run back into the incognito fog of the upper class, and into the arms (and wallets) of their new male benefactor Capt-Save-a-...s. Maybe one day karma will catch up with them. Perhaps when they finally lose their sexual market value, as it tends to be the only chink in the armor for these types.

    I ain't hatin', I'm just statin'.... :cool::D
     
  4. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Seems like you're doing a little white-knighting of your own.
     
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  5. PaulS

    PaulS Final Approach

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    You've put way to much thought into that statement.
     
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  6. GRG55

    GRG55 Final Approach

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    So...how about those switches instead of a key for magneto control? :p
    Just askin'
     
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  7. DavidWhite

    DavidWhite Final Approach

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    IBTL!

    Also.....Damn it feels good to be right!

    The original thread here is actually what spurred the trademark infringement suit from Gulfstream - a former participant who was/is an engineer at Gulfstream took it to the legal department and they slapped her with the suit. Apparently they were able to connect the dots better than the apologist fanboys on this forum.
     
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  8. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

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    What does her trademark infringement have to do with the merits of the sex-trafficking case against her?
     
  9. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Are you saying I’m responsible for GG’s name change? ;)

    https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/gulfstream-girl.57332/
     
  10. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    #bandozer
    The whole story is one that is very interesting to me. My mom's apartment growing up (she still lives there) is about a mile from Epstein's Manhattan residence. I literally took the bus by his NYC home every day going to and from school for K-8th grade. Keep in mind there are lot of people with 9+ figure net worths in that neighborhood so it's nothing special or out of the ordinary there. I don't know most of their names, and while I know Epstein's name had come up in the GG threads before, but not a name that I followed. Of course I don't follow gossip or people whose names are well known just because they're well known. Rich dude who has his own 727? Whatever, Trump was doing that in the 80s. Every time I flew in and out of LGA I remember seeing the "TRUMP" 727 parked at the FBO, parked specifically such that every airplane landing and taking off out of LGA in those days saw it.

    And when you read back through the posts, gossip is largely what a lot of it sounded like not unlike some threads we see today - a lot of negative posts by people whining about how they didn't get the break that the pretty girl got, or how she only got the break because she was a pretty girl (ignoring those of us who were not pretty girls and got a break somehow). We all see people get jealous, and at least some of us like to assume innocent until proven guilty, especially when looking at such egregious crimes and accusations as what were going around.

    And based on what's coming out now, it's obvious there was a lot of very wrong things occurring in broad daylight.

    That said, Nate, I'm not convinced this demonstrates an issue with hiding tracking of tail numbers from the public. If you take a look on FlightAware at tail numbers that aren't hidden you'll find all kinds of aircraft traveling all over the country and the world. And just like in our world of small aircraft the vast majority of those people are traveling for whatever legitimate personal or business reason, and some are doing it for various illegal or nefarious purposes. Ultimately the governments still have knowledge of these trips (moreso at the Gulfstream/727 level than they do at our bug smasher level) and as individuals we don't have the ability to prosecute anyway.

    It will be interesting to hear the continued developments.
     
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  11. denverpilot

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    At the time she was using social media heavily to “encourage young girls in aviation” but the likelihood that other things were going on, really meant (and still means) she has no place being around your or anyone else’s children. Sorry, that’s just how I see it. The standard “sexual offender” label works here. Public appearances, photo signings... way too easy to lure a youngster into that hell.

    Gulfstream realized that and wants their name nowhere near her. Can’t blame them.

    It will. And caution, I only said blocking tail numbers makes it easier. I didn’t say bad things don’t happen aboard unblocked tail numbers.

    Many international crews now undergo training for signs of human trafficking. My thoughts on that... pay attention. It’s not just another slideshow to click through to make HR happy. :(
     
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  12. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    I can say that even though I wasn't sold on her involvement at the time, were I in a position of power at Gulfstream I would've done the exact same thing as they did.

    True. I correct my statement. :)

    On that I would definitely agree. I read up some on his pilot (or I guess chief pilot, as his Gulfstreams and the 727 were multi-pilot aircraft and he had to have had FOs besides GG), who'd been flying for him for 30 years and remaining working for him after his 2009 case/conviction, and had to have been aware of what was going on to some degree.

    I would be curious about the real numbers regarding human trafficking compared with other awful things that go on in this world. It does seem like most people are sourced from third world countries rather than here, but (knock on wood) I have not known anyone who was ever kidnapped, and hope it stays that way. Obviously there are stories and you see the missing person posts all over Facebook, but by comparison in unlikely things to happen two of my friends have died in shootings in my life, and that isn't very probable.

    People who participate in human trafficking are the lowest of the low, and I'll go on record as saying no punishment is enough for them. I also wonder how much it actually goes on. This brings it to light because it was so public, high profile, and open. I think we tend to think of these sorts of criminal folks as living in the slums and not among the rest of us.
     
  13. Palmpilot

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    I don't blame them for protecting their trademark, especially in the face of the rumors and accusations, but rumors and accusations don't necessarily have anything to do with the MERITS of a case. The publicly available evidence is stronger now, but that was posted AFTER Gulfstream took action.
     
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  14. TCABM

    TCABM Cleared for Takeoff

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    Brands has to protect themselves and frankly, I’m surprised Gulfstream wasn’t more proactive about this. It seems GG started using that name sometime between 2010 and 2013, but it wasn’t until late 2013 that Gulfstream sued for infringement.


    https://www.law360.com/articles/490426
     
  15. Grum.Man

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    As long as she was a positive influence it's free advertising. Once things turn south it's infringement lol
     
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  16. cowman

    cowman En-Route PoA Supporter

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    When something like this comes to light, a whole lot of stuff that seems obvious now might not have been obvious at all to someone at the time who wasn't looking for or thinking about any trafficking going on. People who are involved at sex trafficking are absolute masters at making what they're doing seem perfectly innocent to the outside observer. They coach the victims and they know how to present the right image. I'm completely willing to give people the benefit of the doubt on this unless proven otherwise.
     
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  17. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    I agree I wonder why it didn't happen sooner, as my first thought when I saw that was that she was representing herself as an spokesman for Gulfstream, which she was not. I also wonder how many folks at Gulfstream knew about GG. I'm sure some did, but maybe not those who were in power to send an enforcement action. Such things can also be difficult as Epstein owned two Gulfstreams himself (the G-IV and the G-V), so they don't want to anger a customer.

    I'm not going to pretend to know what went on in Gulfstream, but I think their decision made sense and was obvious to make sense at the time, whether or not you believed the gossip about GG.
     
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  18. denverpilot

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    Trademarks legally have to be defended at all times, circumstances of whoever is using them, notwithstanding. But they certainly were not aware of it or thought a pretty girl could be ignored for a while at first.
     
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  19. Gerhardt

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    I'd never even heard the term until Taken came out. I too would really like to know the real-world numbers, because you'd think there would be more wide-open evidence of it. I've known hookers (there by their own free will) but never anyone involved in sex trafficking, either buying or selling. Really, you'd think at least ONE person I know would know someone involved.
     
  20. Matthew

    Matthew Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I haven't been following the news too closely. Her name come up in the last week?
     
  21. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    #bandozer
    Given the consequences of the "wrong" people finding out (i.e. people like us who would report the knowledge to the correct authorities) it's entirely possible that there's a close degree of separation like that, but the secret is just that well guarded.

    Remember a few years ago when those three girls who had been held captive by a man in his basement for something like 10 years finally escaped? He forgot to lock their door one day, something like that. I seem to recall when that came out his neighbors had no clue. Of course, if they did have a clue and hadn't said anything then I'm sure they wouldn't have admitted it.

    I can say I've had people I've suspected of being drug dealers (mostly in Ohio... but there were a lot of drugs there), but never anyone who I've suspected of human trafficking or the like. But again, I rode the bus past Epstein's NYC residence every day for years and here we are.
     
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  22. TCABM

    TCABM Cleared for Takeoff

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    I know an AF officer court martialed over this. His wife didn’t know what going on until Investigators showed up with a warrant.

    Missed this earlier; 40K cases via the National Human Trafficking Hotline in the US from 2007 -2017

    https://humantraffickinghotline.org/sites/default/files/2017NHTHStats (1).pdf
     
  23. jordane93

    jordane93 Final Approach

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    I don’t think she’ll be getting a new type anytime soon.
     
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  24. Gerhardt

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    With Epstein, I guess it's possible he held people captive. More likely, he just plied them and their parents with $ and everyone seemed to go along, kind of like with R. Kelley. In my twisted mind that's not really trafficking if we're talking situations where the victims are teenagers who aren't trying to escape.. It's sick, but it's not like a guy who keeps kids chained in a basement. I'm hesitant to say this out loud, but to me there's a difference. To my wife there is not.
     
  25. Matthew

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  26. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    I think the majority of the cases we have in the US are of prostitution and not sex trafficking. Trafficking definitely exists here but not as common as other parts of the world. Africa, the Balkans and SE Asia areas it’s popular. Some are sold into it by poor families in order to get by. Others are promised modeling jobs only to get sold into sex slavery, get hooked on drugs and can’t get out.

    When I was in Kosovo, they used to fly in women from Russia for sex. One businessman offered the CO of our base to build an Olympic sized pool and “stock it” with prostitutes for R&R. He politely declined the offer. You can walk down the streets of Thailand and see old white dudes holding hands with Asian boys. Of course the whole Dancing Boy thing that goes on in Afghanistan is disgusting as well.
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2019 at 3:42 PM
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  27. Ted DuPuis

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    Interesting. Looks like over a 10-year period, and those numbers are probably low, but by those ~4k per year.

    Way too high (the number should be 0), but still much smaller than, say, deaths in car crashes.

    Based on the current information we know about that does seem to be the case to some degree, although there also seemed to be some level of force in what was being done, or at least significant coercion and exercising of his position of power (or seemed power). As with anything there are a lot of details and in some cases we're seeing various terms get broader definitions to attract more attention to the plight of others.

    I will agree with you that the severity is a sliding scale impacted by age and when someone goes from 17 and 359 days to 18 years of age it's not like anything's really changed for that person other than what the law says. But there was more going on there based on the reports.
     
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  28. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    Certainly I'd expect it to be more commonplace elsewhere, especially in poorer parts of the world. In the end we are a pretty civilized nation. The more I travel the world the more I come to appreciate this.
     
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  29. DavidWhite

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    Nothing, other than it stemmed from this forum.
     
  30. denverpilot

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    First post. Link. Click. Lol.
     
  31. denverpilot

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    Technically if she loses a lawsuit or pleads guilty she’d be DQed from the ATP under the good moral character clause.

    I’ve always wondered how often that is used.
     
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  32. Lachlan

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    ...said Grum.man. ;) (Stay positive!)
     
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  33. jordane93

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    I got one. Shhhhhh!
     
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  34. Matthew

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    24E277E9-BF5D-4C2E-A944-46DEF9C90409.jpeg
     
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  35. Zeldman

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    I thought Epstien died in 2012.....



    [​IMG]
     
  36. Sluggo63

    Sluggo63 Line Up and Wait

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    Please excuse Epstein from court yesterday. Epstein hanged himself.

    Signed,

    Jeffrey Epstein's Mother
     
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  37. Weekend Warrior

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    That's the problem with trying to come up with "real-world numbers". With successful human trafficking, there is nearly ALWAYS some level of victim cooperation. When the lay-person hears the word "human trafficking", they imagine kidnapping and chains, but that isn't typically how it works. More likely, its drugs, money, citizenship, etc, or promises of the like, instead of kidnapping and chains.
     
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  38. bflynn

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  39. DavidWhite

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  40. Matthew

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    I haven't heard much since Epstein offed himself. There was a lot of chatter for a while, but it's pretty much stopped. I hope someone still plans to open up his records. I think GG was given immunity years ago, but I don't know if she's untouchable if a DA or the AG decided to make an example of someone.