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Discussion in 'Cleared for the Approach' started by benyflyguy, Dec 21, 2018.
In the case of comms loss, you are expected to fly to your filed alternate.
If comms are working you can land anywhere, even if diverting from originally intended destination, just gotta hash it out with ATC.
Thank you guys. I appreciate.
He surprised me during the oral portion by questions I never saw before like:
1. How soon do you have to put IFR goggles to be able to log the practice approach for currency?
2. If you have full scale CDI deflection during such practice approach - can you log it?
3. You are on the ground at Ukiah, CA airport (no-towered), how do you get clearance? I was looking for a phone # to departure in AF/D but could not find one. It turns out there is a frequency (RCO) where you can pick up FSS on the ground.
4. He asked me to come up with a few reasons why people run out of fuel.
5. He asked me in what kind of weather I would still take off, I replied not worse than 200 ceiling and 1/2 sm visibility, he gave me plenty of reasons why it is not conservative enough. He suggested to use the circle minima for that airport as standard.
My instructor recommended me this DPE since he is known for the fact that he not only examines you but also teaches in the process. By the way, when we approached this DPE in the beginning of December to schedule the checkride he replied - it is either 1/2 or I am fully booked till 3/27. He charges $700 and then $400 if retest is needed.
I have found many DPE's are a bit forgiving on flying "out of spec" as long as you
are not doing it constantly
quickly recognize it and fix it, **and** you verbalize what you saw and what you are doing to fix it.
Why? The pilot is paying him, not the fed gov.
My DPE gave me my instrument checkride yesterday without issue (I passed).
Apparently the only issue is I may have to hold on to my temporary airmen certificate for a while (it expires in 120 days so shouldn't be an issue) as they aren't processing any airmen certificates during the shutdown.
"How to get clearances" is an area I wish the instructors would go deeper on. Including flying out to a field new to the student and providing them a chance to practice using the RCO or calling on the phone. Also practice picking up in the air. All of these are "real world" and it will greatly help the student in the long run.
Extra points to the DPE for engaging in this discussion. While the regs talk about the fuel minimums, that often isn't conservative enough for the situations that we get ourselves into. And it is a subject I encourage all folks to continuously review. A good case study video from AOPA is this one (link).
More bonus points to the examiner for sharing wisdom that the regulations don't.
Your answer is valid per the regulations, but the examiner was introducing and/or reinforcing the concept of personal minimums.
His price is a little higher than many. But if you feel you received shipping container loads of useful information and wisdom from the experience, then your dollars were well invested.
Soo this sat I have a checkride scheduled again.
This will be the 4th or 5th time I have scheduled it if forget how many times. Weather has been a hinderance for last few. Expected in NEPA this time of year. This sat is even a little iffy. It seems hard to get “prepared” for it. I flew the approaches last week and hope to fly Friday. For oral at this point I know what I know. Looking over stuff repetitively started to instill doubt.
FOR instance. I have been studying my approaches. For the VOR-A into KSEG. I have always approached it from the North or NorthEast. So fly over VOR (IAF) then head out- do procedure turn. Easy. What were to happen if I was coming from the south. Or southwest. Line bold so without vectoring I would fly that procedure turn right? Would be weird to do so. Is it possible to get vectored to the IAF and down to altitude??. There are towers and mountains that make that difficult. Why I come up with this question now who knows??? (I know the plate is just past date)
Isn't a procedure turn just a course reversal? If you were coming from the south there would no need to do that.
True but it’s also an opportunity to drop altitude in a Safeway. I always thought that if it’s in bold you have to fly out and less otherwise directed by ATC
Remember, ask for what you need, if you want vectors to final, ask, if you want the IAF, ask for that, if they can't do it, they'll tell you, but it takes the guess work out.
For your question, I would say if you are vectored to the final approach course and told to intercept it, then you don't need the turn, but it depends on where you intercept, how high you are and how much room you have to get to the FAF, which is the VOR, and down to 1,900 as to whether you can get it done. If you are too high in that case ask for the procedure turn to get down. If you are sent to the VOR, you need to turn.
Good luck on your ride, mine is coming up too.
I don't know whether HAR Approach can vector you to final, but I'm pretty sure if you fly outbound on a PT for two minutes at less than 180 Kts GS before turning, you'll have enough time to lose the 1500' before crossing the FAF and remain within protected airspace.
Whatcha doing to prep for oral?? I’m reviewing one of the online quick print outs. Bunch of acronyms, regs, common IFR rules. Watch a vid online of a sample checkride oral. I have the king course for it- as happy as I was for the written prep- I was disappointed by the oral checkride stuff. When I first was ready to go for ride I knew my crap spot on IMO. Now feeling a bit stale. On the good side. Was a lot more nervous week leading into first date. Now after mentally prepping 4 times I’m a bit more “meh”.
They usually have me cross at or above 4000 then negotiate the procedure turn. The gotcha points I’ve had are I forget to descend from 3400 when I start my turn back towards the inbound course. I the intercept the inbound course at 3400 and gotta get down in a hurry. I’ve made about every little mistake you can safely make on it. Have flown it more in IMC then with hood fortunately. The missed comes up quick too- the factor in one of the other approaches is the RNAV 8 at N79 where the IAF is the same VOR as the above approach!!! HAR approach is very nice to work with. Understanding when you are out to practice all this stuff.
That's a mandatory minimum altitude until you intercept.
Ok, which is it you do? This is the right way. If you go out two minutes (don't exceed 180 kts GS) you'll be three minutes out when you intercept--that'll give you a 500 ft/min descent rate to lose 1500 ft.
I’m starting down when I complete my turn to intercept the final course. I’m screaming along in a 182 (lol). From what your saying I’m probably starting down a bit too early. I like to be inbound early so I have time to get down and get configured. The winds can really howl at times and make this approach keep u on you toes with a tail inbound. When into a stiff wind it’s a joy to fly.
I did the sporty's videos, it has a pretty good study guide, plus practice questions that I've gone through many times in the past few weeks. I also went through the ACS line by line and made sure I could address each requirement for the check ride. The sporty check ride video is 7 minutes 57 seconds long. I'm still prepping, completing the IACRA form and will be doing a lot of chair flying. This will be my first appointment, I'm hoping to be able to fly, but we'll see. I'm hoping nerves won't be an issue. I've put a lot of prep into this, I just need to perform now. Hopefully be able to get up a couple times before my date.
How many minutes straight outbound do you fly before commencing the PT?
One minute outbound from VOR then turn
I have been reviewing the ACS. Might get that sports thing to freshen up. I’m using the avclicks.com to review as well. Keep in mind for me I need 5000’ ceilings to do checkride and the DPE cannot start a ride they don’t intend on finishing. I wanted to go out and bang out oral and paperwork and if weather was good fly, if not fly another day. They can’t do that apparently (they used to be able to I’m told). The FAA looks at weather in area when checkride begins on the IACRA and if the weather was iffy and we didn’t finish ride due to weather the DPE gets in trouble.
Not long enough. Make sure to read these tutorials, with special attention to slides #53 to #56 of the second one (may not view well on iPads):
Thanks. That was a nice review and cleared up some confusion. I will keep reviewing your site. It has been very helpful thus far. Everything views well enough on the iPad to get the point.
Good luck Saturday. To sum up, as long as you maneuver at less than 180 kts GS, you can go out two minutes on normal PTs. You won't NEED to, though, unless you need to lose more than 1000 ft on the inbound or unless the inbound leg is shorter than the timed outbound leg. For the Cat A (5 nm) PTs, you must fly no more than 120 kts GS and no more than one minute outbound. So, for your C-182, if you have an SOP of 90 KIAS you can simply remember to use two minutes, if needed, except if the max PT leg limit is 5 nm (one minute then). That covers you for up to a 30 kt tailwind outbound on the short Cat A PTs.
Thanks. I like the extra time when I can have it. Gives me time to do checklist items and make sure everything looks good and I don’t make a stupid bustable mistake.
Cancelled earlier for today due to predicted winds for tomorrow. I told the DPE it was my example of good risk management.Going to be 20G25-30 tomorrow. Rescheduled for next week. But now got to repeat my 3 h checkride prep. -which I welcome. I always enjoy going up and working on stuff, wanted to iron out some stuff anyway. The saga continues!!!
Looks better than forecast yesterday:
Maybe you can still do it later today?
Ended up being better then forecast. I took the time to go up with my CFI and get some current experience and satisfy the 3 hour prep.
Lord works in strange ways. Checkride wasn’t meant to be but it was a great day to go up with instructor and work on winds. Planning approaches knowing what I need to think about with howling winds. Did the KSEG RNAV 17 with wind at my back. Which was fun. Then the VOR-A and did with your advice @dtuuri. In fact it was fun as I did get to approach the IAP for the VorA approach from SW.
going home had 30’ wind correction to stay on course.
The RNAV 17 approach left both of us questions. So I was cleared to to The IAP HUTOD. My CFI asks me about a procedure turn? I said. Yes. He agrees. But on the 430w it’s not showing the procedure turn. We talk about that (had time with winds only doing 90 it’s over ground. Had bold line from HUTOD there is not a NoPT designation. I as ATC being cleared to HUTOD do they expect me to do procedure turn and they said nope.
I get that if I was cleared to EXLAV from above that I would not to PT-but that seems to be the only instance unless otherwise directed by ATC. They cleared me to HUTOD then cleared me for the practice approach. I was flying NW to HUTOD
Sorry you missed your ride, but more practice is a good thing. It seems most of my flights have been with at least a 25 knot crosswind at a couple thousand feet, wind shear and gusty crosswinds on landing. Was practicing holds with a 40 knot crosswind a few weeks ago, pretty impressive 20 degrees of correction inbound to track the radial, outbound, forget about it. Fun stuff.
The whole purpose for the "T" arrangement is to avoid having to do PTs. Check the AIM/Chart Users Guide.
(EDIT: Disregard--I should have looked closer at the chart.)
As described, without reading up on it to confirm, I say yes you need to do the PT, BUT, there is nothing stopping you from asking for straight in, no procedure turn. That said, you would need to lose 2,100 feet in 6.6 miles without the PT, but that isn't that bad. Good exercises, thanks for posting.
On closer inspection, I think the HILPT does NOT apply from HUTOD which is an IAF (initial approach fix, not IAP--initial approach procedure). The maximum NoPT intercept course to EXLAV from within the NoPT sector is the same as the right base course from HUTOD. From HUTOD, EXLAV becomes the IF part of the IF/IAF designation for HUTOD.
PTs are "initial" segments. If they wanted you to do one on the right base, they'd have put the HILPT there instead. IMO.
Reviewing the AIM about T-designed approaches I figure that either this is near “feeder routes” from airways. -looking at map with plate overlayed I can see that as a possibility. SO NoPT. I think this is likely the reason perhaps but even in the AIM example the designate NoPT.
Or if I was cleared to IF/IAF EXLAV and my angles is 90 or less then NoPT. -but I wasnt cleared to IF. Just HUTOD then for approach.
Even in the AIM one example shows feeder legs with designation NoPT.
It makes sense that I shouldn’t need to do the turn. I was at an altitude that didn’t need to loose any. If I wanted to do it I know I would need ATC clearance to.
I don’t want to rely necessarily on what makes sense.
I plan on just asking the DPE next week during oral. He’s based out of there , he can offer some insight - nothing wrong with not knowing everything!
I see we posted simultaneously. See my post above.
Thanks. What’s interesting is I reviewed some other plates I had with standard T approaches locally. With IAF listed as the feeder to the IF/IAF and the specify NoPT on the leg. Like the RNAV 29 into KZER. In fact there are a few like that. Wondering if it possible it is just not listed on the plate?
I don't have time to read it completely now, but beginning at the AIM, page 5-4-9 up to page 5-4-16 have the answer and I think you are correct.
This should settle it: https://skyvector.com/files/tpp/1902/svg/06582R8.svg
"NoPT" is missing from the initial leg segments, but so is the HILPT symbol. The holding pattern shown is just for the missed approach segment.
I don't know nuthin 'bout nothing, but isn't the top left portion saying "if you are flying a 080 heading to 260 heading to EXLAV, NoPT"? if that's the case, flying to EXLAV from either JASOG or HUTOD would indicate u do not have to do a PT?
Eman, what threw me off is that most other types of approaches will clearly say "NoPT" on the legs from the initial approach fixes. For an approach with a TAA they don't put that there because it is covered in the TAA. Around here there are no approaches with TAAs, at least that I can find, so my exposure is limited and my test prep videos didn't really cover it in that much detail, at least from what I remember, although they've updated since I took the written. This is good stuff anyhow.....
Yes, exactly. HILPTs are initial segments, so the one at EXLAV only is for when EXLAV is the IAF not when it's the IF like coming from HUTOD. When going directly to EXLAV from anyplace other than HUTOD and JASOG the HILPT would have to be done unless from the NoPT sector.
That is what sums it up best for me. I’m not flying from IAF to another IAF. I’m flying IAF to IF, hence no turn needed. If I was on a heading of 265 and for whatever reason I was cleared to EXLAV as the first part of my approach the. hILPT it is. But that is why these T routes are made the way they are. But it makes me wonder what makes approaches like the ones into KZER (see pic) with same T-config have specified NoPT on the feeder IAP to IF??? We have a lot of these, all of them that are 90deg Config have the NoPT listed on the IAF to IF. So I’m more used to having that listed then not.