Getting near the end of training, trying to work out a few bugs.

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drotto

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drotto
So here is where I stand. I have all of my required hood and some actual IMC needed to take the check ride, I am a few hours short of the PIC XC requirement, but that is a matter of just finding time to fly. I have had a few unfortunate interruptions in training where my plane went into annual and was unavailable for like 3 weeks, as well as my original CFI trying to finish my training while transitioning to a full time charter pilot job. That lead to an about 2 month period of almost no flying. At which point we agreed to part ways, and I have had a new CFI for about 3 months now.

I am training in a Saratoga SP, with a G500, G750, and a G650. All my primary training was steam. I got my complex and high performance in this plane, and have about 70 hours in it now.

So this is my problem, and I think it just comes down to practice and experience. I have no real issues flying the plane. My holds and approaches are nice, and I can do them all well by hand. I am OK using the glass, but certainly do not take full advantage of it yet. My main problem is transitioning from cruise to approach especially when ATC is throwing in multiple vectors. I will sometimes miss a call or not hear it correctly, which will then put me behind the plane.

As an example. I was flying in actual into a Charlie yesterday. The tower was vectoring me around the long way to the ILS. I miss heard a call and was late intercepting the radial. I managed to correct, but it was by no means smooth, and the CFI gave me a little nudge. Once established I flew it by hand and was fine breaking out about 300 feet above minimums.

On the return trip into a uncontrolled field, I flew the route with no issues, including several changes in routing due to weather. ATC did a great job keeping me somewhat clear of a moderate band of storms, but did request a Pirep from us. This time we broke out only about 50 feet above minimums. On this leg I was comlimented by my CFI.

Other than practice and repetition, anyone have suggestions on hearing ATC better and smoothing over the transition from cruise to approach?

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Practice and practice in the system as it sounds like you have everything else covered. Maybe anticipate the approach coming up and slow the plane down?
 
You are selectively missing the radio calls because you brain is task saturated flying the plane. Turn the volume up so your brain can't filter out the radio. Also are you using noise canceling headsets?
 
Clip4 said:
You are selectively missing the radio calls because you brain is task saturated flying the plane. Turn the volume up so your brain can't filter out the radio. Also are you using noise canceling headsets?
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I believe this is what is happening. My brain is getting saturated by getting everything set up correctly. When I am in less busy airspace, and ATC does not need to change things around, I have much fewer issues. My new CFI is really stressing setting everything up including backups. His philosophy is you have all the tech and different bugs, so use them. The DEP will see the stuff in the plane and expect you to be proficient in all of it. I see his point 100%, but it does add to the workload. I know once trained it is safer.

I think my initial training is also hurting me somewhat. Since I trained at an uncontrolled field, I just have not had enough radio work. It is certainly fine for VFR flight, but in a busy charlie of bravo in real IMC, I have not done it enough.

I am not sure whether it only being my 3rd time in real IMC had any effect. We legitimately flew the second approach to minimums, and were somewhat worried about being able to get into my home field. Despite what the FAA my claims, being in the real thing with no way out is very different. I am thankful that I have flow about 3 hours in real IMC during training.

Yes, I have a noise canceling headset.
 
Clip4 said:
You are selectively missing the radio calls because you brain is task saturated flying the plane.
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I think this is spot on. It sounds like you are definitely on the right track. Just keep doing it and it will get easier for you. Allow yourself to be patient with yourself to gain the experience. I am not saying to accept mistakes. Just don't be too hard on yourself when you do. It takes time to get the experience you need.
 
drotto said:
I am training in a Saratoga SP, with a G500, G750, and a G650. All my primary training was steam. I got my complex and high performance in this plane, and have about 70 hours in it now.
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That's a lot of toys. Are you getting distracted by all the shiny glass or what is causing you to miss a call?

I took my checkride in a Cherokee 180 with a G650 and didn't have a problem.
 
Caramon13 said:
That's a lot of toys. Are you getting distracted by all the shiny glass or what is causing you to miss a call?

I took my checkride in a Cherokee 180 with a G650 and didn't have a problem.
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Think part of it was the CFI switch. I did the first 30 hrs or so with the same guy that did my PPL. Kinda old school, and was not as stringent about using every gizmo, and button. As long as the primary stuff was working and set correct he was good. The current CFI is really keen on getting both primary and secondary set up for everything. Make sure all the altitude and heading bugs are set, etc. He wants me flying the plane more like an airliner since it has the capability to be used that way.

So I am having to relearn or adapt to the new CFI. Granted, I think he has a point about using the new systems to full affect. Plus from a safety and real world standpoint, I know I will be cruising on autopilot especially in MIC and flying approacches coupled when possible.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
 
drotto said:
Think part of it was the CFI switch. I did the first 30 hrs or so with the same guy that did my PPL. Kinda old school, and was not as stringent about using every gizmo, and button. As long as the primary stuff was working and set correct he was good. The current CFI is really keen on getting both primary and secondary set up for everything. Make sure all the altitude and heading bugs are set, etc. He wants me flying the plane more like an airliner since it has the capability to be used that way.

So I am having to relearn or adapt to the new CFI. Granted, I think he has a point about using the new systems to full affect. Plus from a safety and real world standpoint, I know I will be cruising on autopilot especially in MIC and flying approacches coupled when possible.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
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Gotcha, it's a good idea to have fallback's for the systems, but a Saratoga ain't an airliner. Sure a well-equipped one CAN be setup that way, but flying single pilot IFR you aren't gonna have time to do all that garbage during an approach, it should be setup beforehand..like...WAY beforehand. Once you get comfortable with the system and the CFI, try to break things into smaller chunks or "flows".

One of mine was making sure I had all the necessary items ready for the FAF such as inbound course on the HSI, correct approach loaded, frequencies set (verified by sound prior to this) and triple checking the CDI mode (GPS or VLOC).

Get everything setup prior to that "long call" you get with all the approach stuff so you can be ready to read it back and GO.

I will say that if you are idle at ANY point during an IFR flight, re-think what you are doing. I had to consciously remind myself to do something whenever I got comfortable and idle. Saying to myself "I'm idle, what could I do besides sitting here doing nothing but watch the gauges move"? Could I set a bug, set a standby frequency, prep an approach, read a plate, prep for a hold, check minimums again, check notams etc...Because when you then get to the approach you want as little to do as possible.

Learning the systems should be a ground-school activity, not something you do in the air during an approach. And trust me, when you are by yourself you will absolutely NOT have time to play with something on an approach to minimums.

Keep at it though, you'll find your groove :).
 
just sit in the back seat and let the autopilot fly it for you?
 
In addition to the G500, G650, and G750, is there anything else in the cockpit such as an iPad that you are also configuring? If so, what purpose does that "thing" serve? Also, are there CDIs for the G650 and G750? If so, where are they?

The trifecta of panel-mounted GPS units seems like overkill to me. However, I don't believe the CFI's request is unreasonable. He's not the one who chose the avionics configuration, after all, and he has a duty to make sure you are proficient in all of the units' operations. If configuring these is presenting a challenge for you, I would suggest plugging in a GPU, sitting in the airplane for a few hours, and rehearsing the following tasks:
  1. Entering an RNAV approach from a T-fix.
  2. Entering an RNAV approach with vectors to final.
  3. Selecting "direct to" an intermediate fix after previously loading an RNAV approach from a T-fix.
  4. Entering a flight plan.
  5. Entering revised routing to your original destination.
  6. Entering revised routing to a new destination.
  7. Entering a GPS hold at a waypoint along a route.
  8. Entering a GPS hold at present position (if available).
It is also worth exploring the dozens of time-saving tasks that each of those units provides, such as frequency lookups and VNAV planning. All of these are well-documented in the manufacturer's manuals, which should be onboard the aircraft. Don't look at proficiency with the units as a burden. Being able to use them well will help you tremendously down the line.

Using the bugs actually frees up your mental resources. When reading back altitudes and headings to ATC, set them immediately in the altitude select window and the HSI, as appropriate. This should be habitual. There shouldn't be more than one heading bug to set unless this airplane is decked out with multiple HSIs, in which case that would honestly be a massive pain.

drotto said:
I think my initial training is also hurting me somewhat. Since I trained at an uncontrolled field, I just have not had enough radio work. It is certainly fine for VFR flight, but in a busy charlie of bravo in real IMC, I have not done it enough.
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A facility tour, if you have not already done one, would be very beneficial to you.

drotto said:
I am not sure whether it only being my 3rd time in real IMC had any effect. We legitimately flew the second approach to minimums, and were somewhat worried about being able to get into my home field. Despite what the FAA my claims, being in the real thing with no way out is very different. I am thankful that I have flow about 3 hours in real IMC during training.
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The FAA does not make any such claims. They simply provide a way for people to get IFR rated in areas where actual IMC conditions typically aren't available.
 
Harold Rutila said:
In addition to the G500, G650, and G750, is there anything else in the cockpit such as an iPad that you are also configuring? If so, what purpose does that "thing" serve? Also, are there CDIs for the G650 and G750? If so, where are they?
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The G500 has no GPS function and the 2nd screen can be set to just about anything, it gets its info from the G750. The CDI's for both the 750 and the 650 are displayed on the 500 under the attitude indicator and appear as a traditional style HSI reading. You can either toggle between them or view both on one dial. I have a good handle programming everything, and changing FP's on the 750 and using direct too are very easy. I am proficient in all the basic operations, but not all the bells and whistles. My main hangup is not in cruise, or in the approach itself. I can do both well. It is that transition between the two phases of flight, where I can get hung up on the radio calls.

The plane also has traditional backup instruments in a ASI, attitude, altitude, and an HSI (which is linked to the 650). I did not set up the panel, and it is not as complex as it sounds, but it does have a lot of redundancy.
 
drotto said:
The G500 has no GPS function and the 2nd screen can be set to just about anything, it gets its info from the G750. The CDI's for both the 750 and the 650 are displayed on the 500 under the attitude indicator and appear as a traditional style HSI reading. You can either toggle between them or view both on one dial. I have a good handle programming everything, and changing FP's on the 750 and using direct too are very easy. I am proficient in all the basic operations, but not all the bells and whistles. My main hangup is not in cruise, or in the approach itself. I can do both well. It is that transition between the two phases of flight, where I can get hung up on the radio calls.

The plane also has traditional backup instruments in a ASI, attitude, altitude, and an HSI (which is linked to the 650). I did not set up the panel, and it is not as complex as it sounds, but it does have a lot of redundancy.
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Ahh, ok. This sounds much easier than I had originally thought. I have a lot of time with the G1000 but have not used the G500. The dual configuration of the G750 and G650 makes sense now.

If I can offer a simplification of the en-route to approach phase of flight, it would be this:

You should have an idea of which approach control frequency will be working you into your destination. When you are first transferred to that controller, and after you have read back the frequency change, take a minute or two to grab the ATIS/AWOS/ASOS if you haven't already done so. Then check in with the approach controller. Give him or her your current altitude, assigned altitude (ie. descending to cross WAYPT at X,000; or descending to X,000), your approach request (if it differs from the one advertised on the ATIS, if there is an ATIS), and confirmation that you have the ATIS, AWOS, or ASOS at your destination. If a center is working your destination airport's surrounding airspace, you'll also need to confirm that you have the NOTAMs at your destination.

Examples -
"Fort Worth Center, N1234, level at 4,000. Request the RNAV Runway 17 approach at Athens with Athens weather and NOTAMs."
"Regional Approach, N1234 at 5,800 descending to cross DODJE at 5,000. Request the Localizer Runway 31 approach at Executive with Yankee."

By including all of that information on your initial call, there is no need for a perpetual back-and-forth exchange between you and the controller, as he or she will not need to extract all of this information from you. From then on, everything else that happens is a series of heading and altitude adjustments, with the occasional traffic call or precipitation advisory. At a certain point, you'll receive your approach clearance.
 
You're not QUITE proficient in all the gadgets, and you're still fixating on them during the transition to approach. With proficiency, they don't take that much brain power.

Whatever you can do ahead of time to lighten the workload will help disproportionately. Load (but don't activate) the expected approach far back in the cruise phase, or even on the ground for very short training flights. Same with ATIS/AWOS and tower/advisory frequencies (put both in COM2). Flying with the AP, especially VNAV modes, is not necessarily less work than hand flying -- it just all comes in bursts.

Remember, you are going to have to be able to do this on a low altitude compressed approach hand flying partial panel, in summer thermal turbulence. If a full panel approach is giving you trouble, you need to lighten workload.
 
drotto said:
Think part of it was the CFI switch. I did the first 30 hrs or so with the same guy that did my PPL. Kinda old school, and was not as stringent about using every gizmo, and button. As long as the primary stuff was working and set correct he was good. The current CFI is really keen on getting both primary and secondary set up for everything. Make sure all the altitude and heading bugs are set, etc. He wants me flying the plane more like an airliner since it has the capability to be used that way.

So I am having to relearn or adapt to the new CFI. Granted, I think he has a point about using the new systems to full affect. Plus from a safety and real world standpoint, I know I will be cruising on autopilot especially in MIC and flying approacches coupled when possible.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
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The examiner will expect that too. (S)he may expect you to know how to use everything on the panel and test you on it.
 
Big picture. You're behind. If you realize the reason WHY the vector is being called ("I'm three miles from the FAF and slightly left, controller is going to give me a vector to intercept of runway heading plus about 20 right now...") then the calls from the controller are no longer a surprise.

You're right at the edge where it feels like it's all coming at you too fast. And it is... because you're just slightly too slow doing tasks to have a few seconds to ask yourself "Where am I on the approach and what's coming next?"

Unfortunately it's just practice and a mental "push" to do things a bit faster. Force the question into your steps, "what's next after this" so you don't slow down at all finishing setup and flying THIS leg, and haven't already decided what's happening NEXT leg.

"Never let the airplane go where your brain hasn't gone first." Great advice for single pilot IFR.

Try to speed up the tasks even though they feel impossibly fast already, so you can free up 5-10 seconds to think about what's coming next.

One thing that helps with this at your stage... just sit and watch someone else fly an entire approach, now that you know all the steps, power settings, configuration changes, and flow of how one works... while relaxed and observing. Realize it's not a freight train. There's plenty of time to get everything done if you're stating not only on top of things but thinking ahead. Speed up the tasks and then ask yourself, "what is the controller going to say next?" When they're vectoring visualize yourself on the chart and figure out why they vectored you there.

It comes with practice. During the practice forcibly speed up (it feels like it takes an effort) so you can add in "where are we? what's next?" and know before they call.
 
Believe it or not, you do get better at this sort of thing. I flew some IFR proficiency today. One of the approaches (KCCR VOR 19R with the course reversal) is notorious as the highest workload approach in the area, due to a turn at the FAF. It also has a handoff from one approach frequency to another right at the IAF, and Approach wants reports on the procedure turn AND inbound.

So I did it partial panel.

When I was an instrument student, it would have been a "no way" (and a different approach at that airport was where I first experienced getting badly behind the airplane, and the cascade of increasing-severity mistakes that implies). But it went well, to ACS standards.

If you do enough of these, you'll know how they flow, and it will all get easier.
 
I do think with. A small time window I am getting behind the plane, but it does not happen 100% of the time. Really only with vectors in C and B airspace. Simple solution is probably to slow down sooner, and work a little faster.

When being vectored and o. An approach, at what point do people really start slowing down?

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drotto said:
When being vectored and o. An approach, at what point do people really start slowing down?
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What have you and your CFI done? I was always 90 knots and flaps 10 about 1 dot above GS in a 172. It's probably going to be a little faster in your plane. I'm surprised your CFI didn't cover this with you.
 
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drotto said:
I do think with. A small time window I am getting behind the plane, but it does not happen 100% of the time. Really only with vectors in C and B airspace. Simple solution is probably to slow down sooner, and work a little faster.

When being vectored and o. An approach, at what point do people really start slowing down?
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You probably need more time in that environment to see when the vectors will happen. They almost always follow a pattern and as long as you know WHERE you are coming up to and intercepting the approach, you'll EXPECT the vector.

Example: If they ever do forget about you, YOU should have the awareness to tell them they just vectored you off to nowhere, or through the localizer, etc. See what I mean?

The vector to the approach is usually a little above the approach altitude. Often at an acute angle to the approach. They can't let you intercept from there. That's too steep. So you know you'll get another vector to shallow it.

The vector call to get you on a shallower intercept angle will happen not long after that and say a clearance to intercept the localizer.

Now you're high and know you need to be established before descending... see how the big picture helps with this? Next call will be maybe that you're cleared for the approach if all you had was a clearance to intercept the localizer.

As far as WHEN to slow down, that's a technique thing and awareness thing also. If you're being vectored into an approach that has a 737 eight miles in trail headed for the same place, you're probably going to get asked to speed back up if you slow it up too soon. It's up to you though, and both pilot comfort/skill and aircraft configuration are ultimately controlling. Maybe you have gear and flap speeds that are limiting and you must slow to them. Maybe not. Depends on what you're flying.

Most folks will slow at the FAF. In busy airspace that can be too soon, but it's generally where you'll see students slowed and configured. Especially if they're flying an approach that needs to be timed, since changes in groundspeed from that point on, are disruptive to figuring out how long you can fly that segment.

If you're flying a non-timed approach like an ILS you can look up words like "decelerated ILS" where the profile is to start slowing at the FAF to a final approach speed while continuing to constantly adjust for the power change on the way down the glideslope.

If you're new at it, I'd prefer you're configured and gear down at the FAF and leave it alone. You're probably busy just tracking the needles and a constant airspeed from a known power setting is great. No reason to do something unstable or that you haven't practiced.

Bunch of ways to skin the approach cat (pun intended? Ha) but the visualization of the big picture and where you are on the chart serves the best of all of them. A moving map can obviously help a lot in this regard. Once you visualize where you are it becomes obvious when those vector calls are going to come.
 
Heh. On my instrument checkride, I got sequenced onto the SJC ILS with a FedEx DC-10 on my six.

Best forward speed. But I think the bullets I was sweating were faster.
 
MAKG1 said:
Heh. On my instrument checkride, I got sequenced onto the SJC ILS with a FedEx DC-10 on my six.

Best forward speed. But I think the bullets I was sweating were faster.
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I got "spun" out of my last approach on my instrument ride by a KC-135 barreling up my butt.

"Right 360 to rejoin the VOR approach."

Ohhhkey-dokey... and the DPE chuckled...
 
drotto said:
I do think with. A small time window I am getting behind the plane, but it does not happen 100% of the time. Really only with vectors in C and B airspace. Simple solution is probably to slow down sooner, and work a little faster.

When being vectored and o. An approach, at what point do people really start slowing down?

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I would slow down sooner. I am working with a new Mooney owner who is transitioning from a Cherokee. He is flying the Mooney 20 knots faster than his brain can handle. There are a lot of tasks to single pilot IFR and getting a little more time pays dividends.


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Marauder said:
He is flying the Mooney 20 knots faster than his brain can handle.
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LOL. Oh man that made me chuckle. Can apply to any airplane really, and I've done it to myself too. Haha. Sometimes you just need more time. :)
 
Clip4 said:
You are selectively missing the radio calls because you brain is task saturated flying the plane. Turn the volume up so your brain can't filter out the radio. Also are you using noise canceling headsets?
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It's all about workload. If you don't start preparing for the approach, well in advance of getting your first vector or being cleared to a fix, then your workload can get really high really fast. Properly prepped, an instrument approach should be a pretty leisurely experience. Another thing is learning to anticipate when ATC will be calling you. The last thing, already mentioned, is knowing the numbers and letting the airplane do the work for you. If you can find a copy, read Gene Hudson's book, Precision Attitude Instrument Flying.
 
Marauder said:
I would slow down sooner. I am working with a new Mooney owner who is transitioning from a Cherokee. He is flying the Mooney 20 knots faster than his brain can handle. There are a lot of tasks to single pilot IFR and getting a little more time pays dividends.


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A friend in the DTO tower tells me he can tell at a glance of the radar scope it is a Mooney he is looking at. Zack says there are always two blips, the front being the aircraft, and the second one about a mile or two in trail is the pilot.
 
What Scott said. Use the "down time" of the 10-15 minutes before the start of the approach to get your 5-A's all done, your CRM all set up, and your initial briefing done. This is time when you aren't rushed and you can get properly prepped before the approach controller is quizzing you for your intentions.
 
drotto said:
So here is where I stand. I have all of my required hood and some actual IMC needed to take the check ride, I am a few hours short of the PIC XC requirement, but that is a matter of just finding time to fly. I have had a few unfortunate interruptions in training where my plane went into annual and was unavailable for like 3 weeks, as well as my original CFI trying to finish my training while transitioning to a full time charter pilot job. That lead to an about 2 month period of almost no flying. At which point we agreed to part ways, and I have had a new CFI for about 3 months now.

I am training in a Saratoga SP, with a G500, G750, and a G650. All my primary training was steam. I got my complex and high performance in this plane, and have about 70 hours in it now.

So this is my problem, and I think it just comes down to practice and experience. I have no real issues flying the plane. My holds and approaches are nice, and I can do them all well by hand. I am OK using the glass, but certainly do not take full advantage of it yet. My main problem is transitioning from cruise to approach especially when ATC is throwing in multiple vectors. I will sometimes miss a call or not hear it correctly, which will then put me behind the plane.

As an example. I was flying in actual into a Charlie yesterday. The tower was vectoring me around the long way to the ILS. I miss heard a call and was late intercepting the radial. I managed to correct, but it was by no means smooth, and the CFI gave me a little nudge. Once established I flew it by hand and was fine breaking out about 300 feet above minimums.

On the return trip into a uncontrolled field, I flew the route with no issues, including several changes in routing due to weather. ATC did a great job keeping me somewhat clear of a moderate band of storms, but did request a Pirep from us. This time we broke out only about 50 feet above minimums. On this leg I was comlimented by my CFI.

Other than practice and repetition, anyone have suggestions on hearing ATC better and smoothing over the transition from cruise to approach?

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
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You're fine. Do it more, do it a lot.
 
jordane93 said:
What have you and your CFI done? I was always 90 knots and flaps 10 about 1 dot above GS in a 172. It's probably going to be a little faster in your plane. I'm surprised your CFI didn't cover this with you.
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Depends on the airspace. I trained in Class B.

In the Saratoga, I liked to fly the GS at 90-100 with a notch. Sometimes, though, it had to be best forward, so that meant 150 with no flaps. I would accept this until a mile or two before DA, at which point, I needed to slow. No problem to get down to 80-90 and full flaps in that time. (Plus Class B runways are long.)

Might be a good idea to practice three scenarios and learn them well. One of the three will usually work no matter where you are.
 
I fly approaches at 100 k with one notch of flaps.

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drotto said:
I fly approaches at 100 k with one notch of flaps.

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That's pretty standard. Just to protect yourself from a DPE who wants to throw a curve (and for flexibility), try other scenarios when you feel comfy.
 
spiderweb said:
That's pretty standard. Just to protect yourself from a DPE who wants to throw a curve (and for flexibility), try other scenarios when you feel comfy.
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I did an approach th ACY a few weeks ago and was given the instruction too keep yuour speed up, faster plane behind you. So i have done it at different speeds.

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drotto said:
I did an approach th ACY a few weeks ago and was given the instruction too keep yuour speed up, faster plane behind you. So i have done it at different speeds.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
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Good
 
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