Gas goes below $3.00

mikea said:
$2.89 on the corner in Taxinois but I think that's after some kind of rebate scam. $3.05 next door at the supermarket, where it was $3.17 just last Wednesday.
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As low as $2.779 today in Brunswick, Maine.

HR
 
mikea said:
:rofl: That's like my rant that I need help to make my airplane payments.
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I wasn't ranting, I was just celebrating the lower prices. If you note in my other post, I pointed out that the higher cost of gas didn't affect me any. :)
 
Ted,

I understand where you're coming from. It's not in anyone's interest to prevent people with lower incomes from driving and being productive members of society - to support those people will just cost the government, and thus us, more and our overall output will decline.

That said, you've got it exactly backwards. People with lower incomes need the tax increase _now_. They won't be able to drive if we let the market self regulate because the development of true alternatives will take a lot of time. On the other hand, those people who can afford $8 gasoline _don't_ need to worry about increasing gasoline taxes.

We need to raise gasoline prices by taxing the heck out of it, and we need to do that now. This doesn't mean that we have to price people out of the market. With smart price discrimination, you can tax fuel inefficient vehicles more and you can give tax credits to folks who have lower incomes. It's all been done before.

Here's the reason we need to do that now:

Ted DuPuis said:
Let the markets do their thing with gas prices. That's how the prices got higher and now how they've gotten lower.
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This is a misconception. Let me say that again - as someone who generally thinks that the market does a much better job than the government, I can't ignore the overwhelming evidence, both in theory and practice, that markets are _not_ good at foresight, at least not when it comes to the long term. Market forces drive new developments if the time horizon is restricted to a few years. Beyond that, however, there is a general consensus that the influence of market forces declines sharply.

The current situation is a good example. As someone who can afford $8 gasoline, I would be in a position to just wait for prices to rise enough so that people will be forced to change their driving habits. Ironically, the people you're worried about, however, would be better served if we _didn't_ let that happen and instead increased the price of fuel now by a smaller margin to prevent very large increases in the future.

Had we done that 20 years ago, we would have been paying $2/gallon instead of $1/gallon. Yes, that's more expensive, but compared to what's going on now, it's not significant. And we could have used that extra money to develop alternatives, not to speak of deterring people from buying SUVs that they don't need.

No personal attacks here, but econ is one of my passions :)

-Felix
 
sba55 said:
That said, you've got it exactly backwards. People with lower incomes need the tax increase _now_. They won't be able to drive if we let the market self regulate because the development of true alternatives will take a lot of time. On the other hand, those people who can afford $8 gasoline _don't_ need to worry about increasing gasoline taxes.
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What you are still talking about is something that punnishes the lower income brackets (who in my observations are frequently the ones who drive gas guzzlers out of necessity). Usage taxes only serve to discourage use of a product or service, which ultimately hurts the economy because the use of those products/services are what generates income for everybody. Don't get me wrong, the WalMart philosophy has hurt us as well, but artificially increasing the prices of goods doesn't help anybody but the government.

We need to raise gasoline prices by taxing the heck out of it, and we need to do that now. This doesn't mean that we have to price people out of the market. With smart price discrimination, you can tax fuel inefficient vehicles more and you can give tax credits to folks who have lower incomes. It's all been done before.
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So we are then going to identify low income people with gas guzzlers and give them credits? This is an excessively complex method that has lots of room for abuse, will most likely not get taken advantage of by those who need it (I can't tell you the number of homeless people I've known who can't get welfare because they have no address to mail the checks to), etc.

This is a misconception. Let me say that again - as someone who generally thinks that the market does a much better job than the government, I can't ignore the overwhelming evidence, both in theory and practice, that markets are _not_ good at foresight, at least not when it comes to the long term. Market forces drive new developments if the time horizon is restricted to a few years. Beyond that, however, there is a general consensus that the influence of market forces declines sharply.
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I agree with you that markets are not good at foresight. But what you are talking about is hurting people in order to generate a market, which may work to some degree, but ultimately still hurts the people who can't afford it. You are exactly in the category of people I list who can afford these taxes, and as such it is very easy for you to talk about this sort of punishment on the lower income brackets.

The current situation is a good example. As someone who can afford $8 gasoline, I would be in a position to just wait for prices to rise enough so that people will be forced to change their driving habits. Ironically, the people you're worried about, however, would be better served if we _didn't_ let that happen and instead increased the price of fuel now by a smaller margin to prevent very large increases in the future.
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I would argue that you can not make that statement for those people, and also that you are not in a position to dictate that sort of thing for them. Look at Europe, which has a massive gas tax, and as I recall the theory there was to encourage propagation of fuel efficient cars, so basically what you are advocating. I remember paying $100 to fill up a 15 gallon tank two years ago in Switzerland. While people there do tend to drive more fuel efficient vehicles and take advantage of public transport more, in the high number of years since they've imposed it, I haven't seen any radical technologies out of them, but it has hurt their economy. Europe has engineers, too, and we aren't the only ones who can come up with these new technologies. The biggest thing is that a number of people drive drive diesel vehicles, which, while they have gotten cleaner than they used to, still emit tons of pollutants. I understand you are advocating a high gas tax which then goes directly towards development of new technologies (which I do not believe is in the European method), but it seems pretty clear to me that this method still does not work.

That said, the biggest difference I always point out between Europe and America is that in Europe people do not need to drive as much as they do in America, simply because things are not so spread out. Plus, my friends in Europe say it is much more common for things to just shut down. In two years of living in semi-rural Pennsylvania, we've had one snow day from work. Zurich shuts down a lot quicker.

Had we done that 20 years ago, we would have been paying $2/gallon instead of $1/gallon. Yes, that's more expensive, but compared to what's going on now, it's not significant. And we could have used that extra money to develop alternatives, not to speak of deterring people from buying SUVs that they don't need.
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20 years ago, $1 meant a lot more than it does now. I could potentially have seen your argument make sense about 10 years ago, when I filled up the Volvo for 98 cents/gallon due to the Russians flooding the market and driving down the cost of oil substantially, but even then I would be against it.

No personal attacks here, but econ is one of my passions :)

-Felix
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Nor any personal attacks at you. Economics is one of my passions as well. Clearly, you and I come from different schools of thought on this. Yours is typical of what I'd expect of someone who does well for himself and lives in California (not a bias or stereotype, just an observation :)). While it is a school of thought I heartily disagree with and have never seen any convincing evidence that it actually works other than on a piece of paper, I still respect your opinions.

My opinion comes from spending a lot more time around that lower 50% bracket and having a reasonable understanding of what they go through (I say reasonable, because my personal experiences at that level are minimal, at best, and I am fully aware of it). While we do need to think 5, 10, 50, 100 years down the road, it is equally important to think about today. If you can't put food on the table today, you won't be here in 5 years. The important thing to do is figure out the appropriate balance such that you invest in the future without strangling the present. I do not believe anyone who argues for "taxing the heck out of gas" today has a good idea of this balance.

I would, however, be fully in favor of imposing a policy of "No, you can't buy that item that you can't afford," since obviously a number of people can't figure that out for themselves. Were we to do that, everyone would truly be better off. People don't need $500,000 houses when a $100,000 house (or less) will suffice, nor do they need that brand new laptop and 42" television. However in a number of parts of this country, people do have a fairly pronounced need to drive.
 
Well, it's down to $2.45 for regular here now, and still dropping...

As a comparison, when I first moved to Houst in OCT /06, I was paying $1.62 locally for 87 octane (regular). And oil was reported a few minutes ago at just under $69 a barrel!

Unfortunately, the DOW is now about -330 so far today....
 
What's weird when driving around this weekend: Gas down the road at the Jewel supermarket regular really is ~$2.69, but in towns just 5 miles away in the same county it's still $3.27-$2.99. :dunno:

I guess there is some mini version of supply and demand evident.
 
colomtnflyer said:
Unfortunately, the DOW is now about -330 so far today....
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Unfortunately the drop in oil and gas prices are the symptom of the bad economy. It's not as if the supply of the oil in the ground miraculously went up or we discovered some new source of energy. I think it's interesting that people who are celebrating about paying, say, $10 less at the pump per fill-up probably lost a whole lot more in other areas of their financial life.
 
Everskyward said:
Unfortunately the drop in oil and gas prices are the symptom of the bad economy. It's not as if the supply of the oil in the ground miraculously went up or we discovered some new source of energy. I think it's interesting that people who are celebrating about paying, say, $10 less at the pump per fill-up probably lost a whole lot more in other areas of their financial life.
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Damn straight. It the same reason they didn't recognize what the adjusted payments will be: There are the payments you see every week and the payments you don't see.
 
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Lest we all forget, this also affects what we pay for oil.
Today's rate. This has recently been near $1.50. The Euro states are now fighting over which countries are going to bail out the Euro states that are in need of bailouts. The "richer" (France and Germany come to mind) states are reluctant to help out their "poorer" relations. The Brits, however are smiling, bigger than ever that they did not convert to the Euro. This from XE.com

Live rates at 2008.10.22 18:11:35 UTC 1.00 EUR=1.28383 USD

Euro United States Dollars 1 EUR = 1.28383 USD
1 USD = 0.778921 EUR​
 
Back on track...I paid $2.89 last evening. That saves me over $160/month versus the high a month or so ago. A further drop is anticipated.
 
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The QuikTrip on Lawrenceville Hwy. Pretty close in here in Atlanta was at $2.46/Gallon at lunch today. Woo Hoo! Next week they'll be giving it away with the purchase of S&H Green Stamps
 
Saw $2.31 on the north side of Des Moines last night.
 
Keith Lane said:
The Brits, however are smiling, bigger than ever that they did not convert to the Euro. This from XE.com

Live rates at 2008.10.22 18:11:35 UTC 1.00 EUR=1.28383 USD

Euro United States Dollars 1 EUR = 1.28383 USD
1 USD = 0.778921 EUR​
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So, it's coming back into line with what it should be.

It was really easy when I was in Europe several years ago - The dollar/euro conversion was pretty much 1 to 1 so I didn't have to think too hard about what things really cost.
 
$2.44/gal 87 oct today at Costco. Was paying $60+ to fill up when it was over four bucks/gal. Today cost me $35 plus change to fill up from about 15+ miles after the red low fuel light came on. I driver a 4.3 litre V8 full time four wheel drive.

Monk
 
Today I saw a sign that said $3.69 and I thought here comes the two way barbed pike again... You know, the one that looks something like this: ----->--<- Then I looked again and realized the 3 was actually a 2. :eek: That couldn't be right so I walked to the pump and sure enough $2.69. As soon as I picked myself off the ground from shock I ran for the jeep and Speed Racered it to the pump so I could fill up before someone changed their blatant screwup. Heck, the numbers on the recipt even came out right for $2.69/gallon. I mean I can now fill up the motorcycle for almost what it use to cost to fill up the jeep many many moons ago..even though the jeep holds over 7 times the amount of fuel.
I absolutely love this!! Every gas tank and container I have that's not full gets topped off tomorrow. I just wish I had a 500 or 1000 gallon tank somewhere to fill.

I'm paranoid (or is that realistic) though. Something has to give here. This is the Greed Era of the Money Age. This can't last. I'm thinking someone who is filthy rich beyond reason is going to start whining soon about inadequate income to survive and the prices will jump to $5+ if not $6+ overnight. I just hope it's the day after I fill up.
 
fgcason said:
I'm paranoid (or is that realistic) though. Something has to give here. This is the Greed Era of the Money Age. This can't last. I'm thinking someone who is filthy rich beyond reason is going to start whining soon about inadequate income to survive and the prices will jump to $5+ if not $6+ overnight. I just hope it's the day after I fill up.
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You're paranoid.

A few years ago before Katrina hit, gas prices were somewhere in the $2-2.50/gallon range for regular (I remember filling up my truck for $2.85 on diesel in California and feeling like I'd just bent over). After Katrina hit, I remember gas jumping up overnight to over $3/gallon for regular, I seem to recall right around $3.20. This was my senior year in college, and I was happy to own a motorcycle (even though it only got 35 mpg). By Christmas, prices had gone back down. Infrastructure had been rebuilt. The day I left for home for Christmas vacation that year, I saw $1.99/gallon at the truck stop where I got on the highway.

We then saw our fairly stable increases over the next few years, followed by some volatility, and then the $3-4/gallon prices that we've seen since spring. Now, it's coming down again with the economy not doing as well and demand going down. Obviously other factors are involved, but my prediction is that it's going to go down and stay down through most of the winter. Starting in spring it will go up again. How high it goes up depends on what people are doing with regards to driving and the economy. If the economy has improved and people are driving more and buying inefficient SUVs and pickups again, it will go up a good sum, back to what we saw this summer. If not, it will go up a bit. We will not see the decreases in prices of diesel that we'd like to see over the winter (it will roughly remain where it is, I think), because the demand for diesel will only go down as the demand for products goes down, since everything you buy gets delivered on a truck, and heating oil is remarkably similar to diesel.

No point in going out and filling up your gas tanks now, it's going to continue going down for a bit longer yet. I'll go ahead and predict that certain areas are going to see gas go under $2/gallon. I'm not so sure mine will be one of them (in fact I highly doubt it will be), but those states that are already seeing numbers getting close to it I believe will actually see it by the end of the year.
 
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It will be interesting to see what it is down to at home by the time I get home on the 30th.

And while the dollar is gaining on the Euro, it's loosing ground here in Japan. I got just less than 100 yen to the dollar when I arrived on Tuesday.
 
Yep - filled up the car at Exxon today with Premium. I looked down at the price ... $2.92! Very nice.
 
Saw $2.55 this evening in Nashville proper!
When I left for work the local station (about 20 miles NW of Nashville) was $2.79. Fifteen minutes ago is was $2.59, a 20 cent drop in 15 hours!
 
$2.45 in Jersey and they pump it!
$2.65 in Delaware

I work just across the bridge so it's a 5 mile drive and no tolls since I work at the bridge.
 
$2.32 at the Sam's Club in Woodbridge today. That's $0.45 cheaper than the stations just down the street.
 
$2.16.9 at WalMart along Beltway 8 today... And the line to access the pumps was incredible!

(Maybe they'll not renew WalMart's business license for creating a traffic hazzard... lol)
 
They're showing $2.06 in Des Moines right now. I can't, for the life of me, figure out why it's $.50 higher here in Lincoln, just three hours away. I know that the NE/IA tax split is like $.05-.06. Somebody, somewhere, is still making some money with these prices.
 
We might need to rename this thread in a couple of days.

I left Springfield last Wednesday for business and filled up at $2.18.

Today, upon my return I filled up at $2.06.

In a few days I'm confident that in Springfield...

...gas goes below $2.00

It's amazing how much difference one month (and a tanked economy) can make.
 
Dear everyone in the lower 48,

I hate you all.

Still $3.49 here
 
AWACSEng said:
Dear everyone in the lower 48,

I hate you all.

Still $3.49 here
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It's wonderful to be hated sometimes. :yes:

If it makes you feel any better, over half the fuel I'm sitting on right now is $4.59/gallon because it was a really really good deal at the time. Now if someone would do something about the price of propane I'd be set for winterover.
 
We now can rename it "Gas goes below $2.00" this is what I paid in Monett, MO today.
 

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Went to DesMoines this evening. When I left Ames, it was $2.09. I bought gas for $2.05 in DesMoines. By the time we got back to Ames (about 20 minutes ago), gas in Ames was back at $2.19. Anybody know what happened today? Or is there anticipation of what will happen at tomorrow's opening bell?
 
The station (WalMart/ Murphy USA) I saw $2.16.9 at the night before last was at $2.06.9 yesterday. And the lines were even LONGER than the day before!

Seems we are heading for sub $2.00 here in Houston!
 
colomtnflyer said:
Seems we are heading for sub $2.00 here in Houston!
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But.....

When will we see similar reductions in the price of 100LL.
I realize it will take a while for any (higher priced) fuel in inventory now to be used, but will the AVGas prices at least drop some?
 
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