Garmin just dropped a bomb on the avionics market...

MBDiagMan said:
Yes, if it is only a little more, your logic is sound. But you will have to add an indicator and a more expensive installation cost to your sheet before making that decision.

Folks, I am not defending the L3 products. I am just trying to make sure you’re not comparing oranges to apples.
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Even if you add another $1500 for an indicator, it's still a great deal compared to what we've had to pay for a WAAS GPS in the past.

And dang, those indicator prices make a G5 HSI look like the way to go. :eek:

Of course, this is how I spend all my money on avionics. "For just little more... While we're in there..." and next thing you know, I've bought another airplane's worth of avionics. :eek:
 
The way I see it, these were designed for the multitudes of us who have the old "Gold Standard" Apollo stack. An MX/GMX, a GX 50/55, two SL30's and an SL 70 Fits in the GX hole. If you haven't done the ADS-B thing, you can check that box too in one fell swoop.

Very appreciative they did this. Solves a lot of problems.
 
Chip Sylverne said:
The way I see it, these were designed for the multitudes of us who have the old "Gold Standard" Apollo stack. An MX/GMX, a GX 50/55, two SL30's and an SL 70 Fits in the GX hole. If you haven't done the ADS-B thing, you can check that box too in one fell swoop.

Very appreciative they did this. Solves a lot of problems.
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That’s pretty much my set up... Gmx 200, 480, sl 30 and sl 70
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Even if you add another $1500 for an indicator, it's still a great deal compared to what we've had to pay for a WAAS GPS in the past.

And dang, those indicator prices make a G5 HSI look like the way to go. :eek:

Of course, this is how I spend all my money on avionics. "For just little more... While we're in there..." and next thing you know, I've bought another airplane's worth of avionics. :eek:
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CDIs are not cheap, but installing a G5 HSI is pretty expensive too. I think used CDIs are still pulling around $1500, I think I'd let mine go for $1200.
 
We need ADS-B for the new airplane, and we were going to do a GTX345 and FlightStream 210 combo. For not a lot more money, seems like the GNX375 will do the same things as a GTX345 and FS210, but give us a 2nd GPS and the benefits that a GTN series navigator would give us, like airways and visual approaches. I assume that the GNX and the 530W that we have will be able to talk to each other.
 
I'm definitely intrigued. We need ADSB still, and have no WAAS GPS. Crap NAV/COM radios, although they still work.
 
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Chip Sylverne said:
The way I see it, these were designed for the multitudes of us who have the old "Gold Standard" Apollo stack. An MX/GMX, a GX 50/55, two SL30's and an SL 70 Fits in the GX hole. If you haven't done the ADS-B thing, you can check that box too in one fell swoop.
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I think they were also targeting the restart (>1998) steam gauge Cessna 172/182. Owners of a 172R or 172S or 182S would have started with a KLN89 or KLN94 and a KT76C and there's probably a good number of those around.
 
Morgan3820 said:
Avidyne, wifi and BT built in.
(Look Ma, no wires!)
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Both of these new products announced by Garmin have built-in wireless. Tho to get the database concierge they require the $1k+ FS510 purchased separately.

The FS510 must have an insane profit margin because they have yet to build a radio with it built-in
 
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OK, here's the debrief from this morning's webinar. A couple additional things they announced first, and answers to the questions are below:

First, the 36-series Bonanzas have been added to the list of aircraft that will be supported on the GFC 500, and the certification work on that is currently in progress. Even though I think their initial certification on the GFC 600 was done in the A36, it's still an awful lot of $$$ for a single. The other planes they're certifying the GFC 600 for are twins and turbines. I can't believe it took them this long. The A36 crowd has been rightfully pretty angry about this, but I'm glad Garmin got their head on straight here.

There was one other thing Garmin introduced yesterday that nobody noticed: The GTX 335D and 345D transponders with antenna diversity. It sounds like this might be a requirement in Canada once they require ADS-B, so it's good that it's finally available - I think these might be the first. I believe the root of the reason Canada is wanting antenna diversity is that they have vast swaths of land up there without even any radar coverage, and they don't want to implement the extensive land-based network that we have here in the US. Using satellites instead of the ground-based system, or having airplanes flying above and below potentially means that the bottom-antenna-only installations most of us have wouldn't work well in Canada. No word yet on an upgrade path, and these suckers are pretty expensive: $7995 for the 345D, which is an extra $3K over the regular 345.

For those interested in the GPS 175 and GNX 375, there is a trainer app on the iOS app store... Or, at least there will be. I don't see it yet.

Answers to the questions:

1) What differences in capability are there between the G3X Touch and the G500 TXi?
The following things are present on the TXi that are not on the G3X Touch:
  • Twin engine support
  • Pilot/Copilot PFD installations
  • HSI map
  • More modern hardware and a nicer screen - Display technology is rapidly evolving, and the G3X Touch is already 5 years old.
  • Additional third-party I/O. They showed only the GAD 29B as an option here, not the GAD 43e, so the interfacing options of the G3X Touch are similar to the G5 rather than similar to the TXi.
  • Database Concierge
  • Remote audio panel support
  • Non-Garmin attitude-based autopilot support
  • 3rd-party Nav radio support on the on-screen HSI.
  • Airborne weather radar support (not datalink, but actual radar like the BendixKing RDR-2000 and Garmin GWX series)
  • Support for the GDL 69A, GDL 88, and GSR 56 datalinks
  • Many more display configurations - Only four are certified on the G3X Touch, while something like 28 are certified on the TXi. (See question 2.)
2) With the 10" + 7" package installed, is it possible to switch the 7" display between PFD/MFD and EIS, or is it limited to being one or the other?
It actually can't do either. There are only four certified display configurations:
  • Single 7" display, either PFD-only or PFD+MFD. No EIS.
  • Dual 7" displays, one PFD, one MFD. EIS strip available on the MFD in this configuration. Dual 7" Display.PNG
  • Single 10" display, PFD+MFD with optional EIS. Single 10" Display.PNG
  • Dual displays, one 10" PFD and one 7" MFD, with optional EIS strip on either display. 10" + 7" Displays.PNG


3) Are there any options for battery backup?
Yes, third party options like the TCW.

4) What are the possible options for display backup?
Dual G3X displays have cross-check and reversionary mode similar to the G1000, where EIS will appear on the remaining display.
Also, and this is pretty cool to me: Even a G5 will function not only as a backup display, but will cross-check the AHRS from the G3X Touch.
Even cooler: If you have a G3X Touch, a G5, and a GFC 500, loss of either the G3X or the G5 does NOT take out your autopilot - Either one of them can control the GFC 500, and neither is "in charge" - They're constantly communicating, and as noted above, they share the bugs and autopilot modes. So, if you lose one of the two, the plane keeps flying along as if nothing happened, without so much as a button press necessary. This is a level of backup pretty much unheard of in GA until now.

G5 dead.PNG
G3X dead.PNG

5) Does the G3X Touch support multiple nav sources?
Yes, as long as the NAV radios are on the approved interfaces list.

6) Does adding a FlightStream 510 to the GNX 375 or GPS 175 add anything other than Database Concierge?
No.

7) Can a GMA 350c do any voice control of the G3X Touch?
No. None of the newly introduced gear (G3X Touch, GPS 175, GNX 375) supports Telligence voice commands.

8) With multiple G3X displays/G5s, do things like altimeter setting automatically flow between them?
Yes. Baro setting is sent from the G3X to the G5. Heading, altitude, and airspeed bugs sync bi-directionally. Flight director and GFC 500 mode annunciations are displayed on both.

9) Is the dual screen 10+7 configuration listed at $14,865 on the web site single or dual AHRS? Any reversionary mode?
Single AHRS. There is display reversion in the dual display configurations. If you have a G5 as backup, there is display reversion there, obviously with only the PFD if the G5 is all you have left. There is also miscompare monitoring between the G5 and G3X Touch AHRS.

10) Do the GNX 375 and GPS 175 support flight plan crossfill with GTN and GNS series navigators?
No, not currently. Only the ADS-B from the 375 will be shared.

11) Can the G3X Touch be used by FIKI aircraft?
No. :(

Other tidbits:
GNX 375 does NOT work with ForeFlight right now, but they are planning to support it later.
GPS 175/GNX 375 do not support VNAV like the GTN series, but they will do "VCALC" like the GTN used to do before VNAV.
G3X Touch does not support EIS streaming to an iPad the way the G500 TXi does.
G3X is about 5 years old, so screen isn't as nice as the TXi displays. Only 4 display configurations certified.
G3X Touch is mostly limited to interfacing with other Garmin products.
G3X Touch does have a GPS that can take over if your navigator fails.
G3X Touch can get XM radio and weather via the GDL 50R/51R/52R units, which are relatively cheap.
They're running a GNS to GTN upgrade program, up to $5000 credit for your GNS when buying a GTN, plus additional credit if you're buying a GTX 335/345 and/or GMA 345/350/350c.
 
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Groundpounder said:
We need ADS-B for the new airplane, and we were going to do a GTX345 and FlightStream 210 combo. For not a lot more money, seems like the GNX375 will do the same things as a GTX345 and FS210, but give us a 2nd GPS and the benefits that a GTN series navigator would give us, like airways and visual approaches. I assume that the GNX and the 530W that we have will be able to talk to each other.
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The GNX375 will provide ADS-B traffic and weather on both the GNX and the GNS. However, they will NOT do flight plan crossfill with the GNS. They will be able to pull in a flight plan from a portable, but it doesn't sound like it'll be shared to the GNS (They said for sure no crossfill, but they didn't specifically say that the Connext functionality wouldn't send a flight plan directly to other units).

asicer said:
I think they were also targeting the restart (>1998) steam gauge Cessna 172/182. Owners of a 172R or 172S or 182S would have started with a KLN89 or KLN94 and a KT76C and there's probably a good number of those around.
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For quite a while, a KLN 89B/94 and a pair of KX155 radios was the state of the art, and most new airplanes came equipped that way, including my 1997 Mooney. It wasn't just Cessna, it was everyone in that timeframe. Garmin started to take over with the GNS 430 in 1999.
 
Wonder if you can mix n match g500 w/ g3x, e.g. use G3X on copilot side...
 
Vcalc but not vnav. So does that mean the 175 will not give vertical guidance or command a GS enabled autopilot like the Stec 60-2 with gpss to fly the vertical portion of an RNAV approach, at least outside the FAF?
 
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Is there some resource to go to try to to educate oneself about avionics options so that you can tell what all this means and make an educated guess as to how to select equipment for your plane? I get most of this discussion, but there are definitely things I am missing. And I am afraid that I don't know what I don't know.
 
Chip Sylverne said:
Vcalc but not vnav. So does that mean the 175 will not command a GS enabled autopilot like the Stec 60-2 with gpss to fly the vertical portion of an RNAV approach, at least outside the FAF?
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That's a pretty specific question, the Stec won't follow any glide path unless its in approach mode correct? Then it probably doesn't matter what its hooked to it won't follow a VCALC generated glide path.

I don't think any other Stec altitude capture/intercept/hold modes have anything to with the GPS systems its connected to.
 
NoHeat said:
I'm missing something. What does flight into known icing have to do with a PFD flight display?
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they want you to look outside at the ice instead of PFD when you ice up?
 
OkieAviator said:
I now have 23 hours behind a set of G3X touches, G5 as well as a GTN 650. I really dig the setup and honestly can't think of anything I would have done different in my cockpit. I don't have any video but I take a lot of pictures in the air. The first pictures is actually the plane flying a fully coupled approach. The next three pictures are typically what I take instead of writing stuff down during the test flights. This part of the flight looks like I was running it hard at 8,500.







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Beautiful panel. The 174 TAS is impressive but schnikes that fuel bill is gonna hurt. :eek:
 
Looks like GPS 175 is a decent replacement for my Apollo 2001 NMS, if I ever get that Instrument Rating. I wish they made something like "275" version, which adds "ADS-B IN" traffic, without doing the full OUT+IN of the GTN 375. Until then though, it's GDL 39 to a tablet.
 
PPC1052 said:
Is there some resource to go to try to to educate oneself about avionics options so that you can tell what all this means and make an educated guess as to how to select equipment for your plane? I get most of this discussion, but there are definitely things I am missing. And I am afraid that I don't know what I don't know.
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The 175/375 app is on the iTunes/App website - went up minutes after the announcement on Monday. The 175/375 manual is on the Garmin website at

http://static.garmin.com/pumac/190-02207-02_a.pdf

You can download all the Garmin GA manuals at
https://support.garmin.com/support/manuals/searchManuals.faces
 
bnt83 said:
That's a pretty specific question, the Stec won't follow any glide path unless its in approach mode correct? Then it probably doesn't matter what its hooked to it won't follow a VCALC generated glide path.

I don't think any other Stec altitude capture/intercept/hold modes have anything to with the GPS systems its connected
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My understanding is that the Stec, in heading mode, follows the commands given to it in the form of bias voltage the gpss sends to the hsi. Certainly true for left and right turns. I believe, though will have to confirm, that it will also follow the voltages sent to the HSI GS indicator by the gpss in hdg mode. The GS capture is for vloc ILS appchs.

My question is more in regards to whether the vcalc is pre-programmed into the unit using gps and alt data when the RNAV appch is loaded for vertical guidance. I guess I need to find out the specific difference between vcalc and vnav.
 
Chip Sylverne said:
My understanding is that the Stec, in heading mode, follows the commands given to it in the form of bias voltage the gpss sends to the hsi. Certainly true for left and right turns. I believe, though will have to confirm, that it will also follow the voltages sent to the HSI GS indicator by the gpss in hdg mode. The GS capture is for vloc ILS appchs.

My question is more in regards to whether the vcalc is pre-programmed into the unit using gps and alt data when the RNAV appch is loaded for vertical guidance. I guess I need to find out the specific difference between vcalc and vnav.
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Pretty certain Stec in heading mode with altitude hold selected its following an externally mounted uncorrected barometric pressure sensor and has nothing to do with GPS or GPSS.

To recap, my understanding of Stec connected to some sort of GPSS, nothing changes in altitude hold operation, its the same as it was before the GPSS existed. You start the GPS approach in heading mode with GPSS, when established you have to select approach mode which puts the old analog CDI wires and glideslope signals in charge of the glide path, in addition to the analog course CDI wires. (even if the CDI has been removed as it would be with a G5 HSI installed)

In the Garmin G5 HSI installation, there are no vertical guidance signals coming from anything but the panel mounted GPS which is through the CDI wiring and not the HSI system. Those vertical guidance CDI wires are not in use unless the legacy autopilot is in the approach mode. The G5 HSI is only connected to the autopilot when in heading mode.
 
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So, I wonder what will be involved in getting approval to interface a G3X with an Avidyne navigator... obviously, no technical barriers, if the G3X accepts nav from the 430W/530W (and even the GNC 300XL/GPS 155XL).

If they do not actively interfere with it, should work fine (just as there are G5s working fine with IFDs already), but would require either a field approval, or perhaps Avi will do something to secure approval from their side. If the only interface was their Can Bus, it'd be different, but (obviously) that is not the case.

Pretty important, and I hope there is no silly obstruction here.
 
Chip Sylverne said:
Vcalc but not vnav. So does that mean the 175 will not give vertical guidance or command a GS enabled autopilot like the Stec 60-2 with gpss to fly the vertical portion of an RNAV approach, at least outside the FAF?
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As @bnt83 said, the 60-2 doesn't really have a vertically guided mode except for approach mode - It only has VS and altitude hold. A 175 will give you vertical guidance on an approach with the 60-2 in approach mode, though.

Chip Sylverne said:
My understanding is that the Stec, in heading mode, follows the commands given to it in the form of bias voltage the gpss sends to the hsi. Certainly true for left and right turns. I believe, though will have to confirm, that it will also follow the voltages sent to the HSI GS indicator by the gpss in hdg mode. The GS capture is for vloc ILS appchs.

My question is more in regards to whether the vcalc is pre-programmed into the unit using gps and alt data when the RNAV appch is loaded for vertical guidance. I guess I need to find out the specific difference between vcalc and vnav.
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I think you're mixing up VCALC/VNAV with approach guidance. They are completely different things.

VCALC is simply going into the "Utilities" page on the GPS, punching in that you want to be at X feet (MSL, or optionally AGL for airports) at Y miles prior to the waypoint and you want to descend at Z feet per minute, and the GPS will tell you when you're approaching top of descent. No vertical guidance is provided.

VNAV is the ability to set altitudes at multiple waypoints, display TOD on screen and provide vertical guidance to an appropriate autopilot. However, I think the only GA autopilot that does VNAV is the GFC 500, and it needs to be coupled to a GTN to do it. My King KFC150 is a really nice autopilot, complete with altitude preselect and all, but it's not capable of VNAV in my plane, and I'm not sure if it would be capable even if hooked to a G500 TXi (which takes the place of King's VS/Altitude Preselect unit, so could theoretically, maybe do it...)

Vertical guidance on the approach is provided as a nav signal, and should be compatible with any autopilot that can fly the glideslope on an ILS approach, such as your 60-2, and having a WAAS GPS that can fly vertically-guided LPV approaches gives these autopilots the ability to fly the vertical component of an RNAV as well.

However, this brings up an interesting question: Since in this case, the GPS does NOT have a Nav radio associated with it, is it possible to hook two different glideslopes up to the autopilot? You would have to switch between your nav radio providing the signal to fly an ILS and the GPS providing the signal for an LPV. Maybe one of the avionics folks like @Jesse Saint can answer that one.

PPC1052 said:
Is there some resource to go to try to to educate oneself about avionics options so that you can tell what all this means and make an educated guess as to how to select equipment for your plane? I get most of this discussion, but there are definitely things I am missing. And I am afraid that I don't know what I don't know.
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Posting here and chatting with an avionics shop are about the best ways, though the avionics shop may have particular biases based on what incentives the manufacturers give them.

There are just so many combinations of avionics, it's hard to say what will work with what, in what airplane, etc without a human involved.

NoHeat said:
I'm missing something. What does flight into known icing have to do with a PFD flight display?
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I'm guessing it has something to do with the "Part 23 Lite" non-TSO certification process that was followed for the G5 and G3X Touch, not anything specifically having to do with FIKI.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
As @bnt83 said, the 60-2 doesn't really have a vertically guided mode except for approach mode - It only has VS and altitude hold. A 175 will give you vertical guidance on an approach with the 60-2 in approach mode, though.



I think you're mixing up VCALC/VNAV with approach guidance. They are completely different things.

VCALC is simply going into the "Utilities" page on the GPS, punching in that you want to be at X feet (MSL, or optionally AGL for airports) at Y miles prior to the waypoint and you want to descend at Z feet per minute, and the GPS will tell you when you're approaching top of descent. No vertical guidance is provided.

VNAV is the ability to set altitudes at multiple waypoints, display TOD on screen and provide vertical guidance to an appropriate autopilot. However, I think the only GA autopilot that does VNAV is the GFC 500, and it needs to be coupled to a GTN to do it. My King KFC150 is a really nice autopilot, complete with altitude preselect and all, but it's not capable of VNAV in my plane, and I'm not sure if it would be capable even if hooked to a G500 TXi (which takes the place of King's VS/Altitude Preselect unit, so could theoretically, maybe do it...)

Vertical guidance on the approach is provided as a nav signal, and should be compatible with any autopilot that can fly the glideslope on an ILS approach, such as your 60-2, and having a WAAS GPS that can fly vertically-guided LPV approaches gives these autopilots the ability to fly the vertical component of an RNAV as well.

However, this brings up an interesting question: Since in this case, the GPS does NOT have a Nav radio associated with it, is it possible to hook two different glideslopes up to the autopilot? You would have to switch between your nav radio providing the signal to fly an ILS and the GPS providing the signal for an LPV. Maybe one of the avionics folks like @Jesse Saint can answer that one.



Posting here and chatting with an avionics shop are about the best ways, though the avionics shop may have particular biases based on what incentives the manufacturers give them.

There are just so many combinations of avionics, it's hard to say what will work with what, in what airplane, etc without a human involved.



I'm guessing it has something to do with the "Part 23 Lite" non-TSO certification process that was followed for the G5 and G3X Touch, not anything specifically having to do with FIKI.
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Thanks, that clears a lot of it up. The STEC can be forced to arm the glideslope by pushing the vs button twice while still below intercept. So, my understanding operationally is that you leave the gpss engaged in hdg so the HSI (which drives the A/P) follows the gps lateral signals, and force the STEc to arm the glideslope to follow the synthetic gps vertical guidance instead of relying on automatic capture from the ils Nav signal. Kludgey, but I understand it works.

Can't wait to find out!
 
Chip Sylverne said:
Thanks, that clears a lot of it up. The STEC can be forced to arm the glideslope by pushing the vs button twice while still below intercept. So, my understanding operationally is that you leave the gpss engaged in hdg so the HSI (which drives the A/P) follows the gps lateral signals, and force the STEc to arm the glideslope to follow the synthetic gps vertical guidance instead of relying on automatic capture from the ils Nav signal. Kludgey, but I understand it works.
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It should work in plain old approach mode as well, with the difference being that it'll follow the lateral guidance as a NAV signal rather than via GPSS. That's how other autopilots without the double-push trick do it too.
 
Just saw the GPS 175 will drive a KI209. No excuse not to upgrade to /G now! Will probably have to wait until mid 2020 to get an install slot though... :-(
 
Morgan3820 said:
Sometimes a single word is sufficient. But, I will augment.
Avidyne is better
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I think the Garmin navigators are outstanding; but replacing my 430 W with a Garmin 650 would have cost me, after installation, $3000-$5000 more than upgrading to my Avidyne IFD 440, and the Avidyne has a lot of features that I like very much (of course, so does the Garmin).
 
Morgan3820 said:
Sometimes a single word is sufficient. But, I will augment.
Avidyne is better
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High wing. Low wing.
Mustard or ketchup.
Dill or sweet.
DC Universe or Marvel Universe (which really doesn't matter as of March 25, 2019 when Disney bought 20th Century Fox)
 
So what else from the experimental world would you like Garmin to bring into the certified world?

I think they pretty much emptied their catalogue of stuff in front of the panel. Only things left that I can think of are behind the panel (pitch and roll data for driving legacy 3rd party autopilots, anyone?).
 
Guys, apologies if this is a stupid question, but I'm a PPL looking at getting an instrument rating so I don't really understand all the different approach types and lingo yet.

So, I already have a KX155 nav/com and a CDI with glideslope. Can I add the 175 and have GPS instrument capability enough to complete my rating in my own plane? My home airport has LPV minimums posted, my other favorite airport only has "LNAV"?

Judging by the photos it looks like the 175 would fit right in place of my old XL250.
 
You’ll need a CDI for the 175, but then yes you can do LPV approaches.


Tom
 
Morgan3820 said:
Sometimes a single word is sufficient. But, I will augment.
Avidyne is better
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State why you think so, and you might actually find a hair of credibility.

I think Avidyne's best stuff is the IFD series navigators, and they beat Garmin at their own game by offering slide-in replacements for the 430 and 530.

But, given several reliability issues (which are, mostly, admittedly old) and the customer service experience of one friend, I wouldn't touch them myself. Again, none of this relates directly to the IFD series, but it's the same company and presumably the IFD series doesn't have their own dedicated customer service. ;)

C_Parker said:
Guys, apologies if this is a stupid question, but I'm a PPL looking at getting an instrument rating so I don't really understand all the different approach types and lingo yet.

So, I already have a KX155 nav/com and a CDI with glideslope. Can I add the 175 and have GPS instrument capability enough to complete my rating in my own plane? My home airport has LPV minimums posted, my other favorite airport only has "LNAV"?

Judging by the photos it looks like the 175 would fit right in place of my old XL250.
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You don't even need to have a GPS in the plane at all to get your instrument rating.

If you do replace your 250XL (which is a VFR-only GPS) with a GPS 175 or a GNX 375, you will be able to file and fly direct flight plans, fly GPS approaches, and fly those approaches to LPV minimums.
 
MooneyDriver78 said:
You’ll need a CDI for the 175, but then yes you can do LPV approaches.

Tom
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Thanks, so there's no way to add a switch to switch between the two sources?

flyingcheesehead said:
You don't even need to have a GPS in the plane at all to get your instrument rating.

If you do replace your 250XL (which is a VFR-only GPS) with a GPS 175 or a GNX 375, you will be able to file and fly direct flight plans, fly GPS approaches, and fly those approaches to LPV minimums.
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To clarify, I would ONLY be able to fly direct IFR? No routing through airways, VOR's, etc?

Thanks guys, and sorry for the hijack!
 
C_Parker said:
To clarify, I would ONLY be able to fly direct IFR? No routing through airways, VOR's, etc?
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I don't know why you would not be able to route through airways, or from VOR to VOR. Because it's not a NAV radio, it can't receive the signal and and let you track a particular radial. But I am pretty sure it can virtually re-create the airway to follow so you can just follow the magenta line, and can route you direct from VOR to VOR off airways, provided it's getting a GPS signal.
 
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