GA Boom or Bust

brien23

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Brien
Are the good times over and GA is in the direction of the economy. I am sure some will say things are in great shape and the economy is rebounding, I am not so sure of that. I might be a little pessimistic, I just do not see the light at the end of the tunnel.
 
not directly on point (but, hey, this is the interweb)...

sometimes the light at the end of the tunnel is an approaching train... or a muzzle flash.
 
Are the good times over and GA is in the direction of the economy. I am sure some will say things are in great shape and the economy is rebounding, I am not so sure of that. I might be a little pessimistic, I just do not see the light at the end of the tunnel.

The reality is that GA is on a long term decline because little airplanes are no longer sexy to most adults with discretionary income. Aviation hasn't been sexy since the days of the Apollo program, so most of today's sub-50 crowd doesn't give a rip. They would rather have a vacation house at the beach.

The economy? Heck if I know. I would have predicted cheap oil would have stimulated the other 90% (or whatever) of the economy, but it sure doesn't seem that way.
 
GA is slowly strangling under the mountain of rules, regulations and laws. These make it bizarrely expensive to build a plane, to own a plane, to maintain a plane, and to fly a plane.
Thousands of dollars of insurance just to leave the ground.
The threat of being persecuted for infraction of even one of a byzantine labyrinth of regulations - costing you money and agony based on the whims of some bureaucrat who might be mad at the world because he didn't get any last night.
Look at the 'angels dancing on the head of a pin' arguments we get on here over whether two pilots in a cockpit can log this or that. Or can a passenger pay for the gas; Yadda yadda.
Look at the persecution of Bob Hoover by two inspectors who felt they had been 'disrespected' at a time when Bob was focused on mentally preparing for an impending airshow routine.
Look at the plunging value of your dollar making aviation one of the most expensive hobbies we have.
A Boom it ain't.
 
Compared to days of yore? Not doing so well.

Compared to all of the other things that compete for our time? Doing okay. At least around my airport.
 
Are the good times over and GA is in the direction of the economy. I am sure some will say things are in great shape and the economy is rebounding, I am not so sure of that. I might be a little pessimistic, I just do not see the light at the end of the tunnel.

The good thing about the Chinese takeover is that the Chinese leadership are fans of GA. GA may become cheaper and more accessible.
 
So that's why there are so many of those young pups at the local part 141 school. I keep wondering just how many pilot jobs there are over there.
 
I think back to the 1970s when my dad got his PPL and many of his friends and acquaintances either were in training or already were flying their own planes. Our local airport was thriving. The hangars and tie-downs were full. We're an oil economy out here, so when the bust of 1986 came, my dad tightened his belt, sold his Dakota, and quit flying. So did lots of others. It's never been the same since. Oh, the hangars are still full these days, but with too many planes that haven't seen the light of day in years. Their only function is to collect dust and black widows.
 
I am sure some will say things are in great shape and the economy is rebounding, I am not so sure of that.


The economy has already rebounded for those with good, marketable skills in areas of the country that are more robust. Nursing, IT, etc. You can't find enough employees.

Those who refuse to re-skill and/or relocate from Podunkville are often the ones bitching the loudest.

The heyday for GA is over. The barrier to entry is high, and younger generations don't have the drive and/or attention span to give it the focus it needs to earn the reward. Not enough instant gratification.


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$30.00 wing nuts and $600,000.00 new singles have a lot to do with it.

Courtesy of your FAA.
 
$30.00 wing nuts and $600,000.00 new singles have a lot to do with it.



Courtesy of your FAA.


Got to see one of, if not the only, Glassair with fully enclosed gear wells/doors last night in person and met the re-builder.

Holy hell that thing is fast. It even just looks fast sitting on the ground. Made me want to learn how to lay up fiberglass.

Personal aviation is moving toward "experimentals" because the traditional manufacturers have failed the market. Cirrus is the closest and their stuff isn't as good as what I saw last night.

That was one damned nice personal travel machine.
 
So that's why there are so many of those young pups at the local part 141 school. I keep wondering just how many pilot jobs there are over there.

Why do you think they bought Cirrus, Mooney, and TCM and developed the Diesel program? You can thank the GA response hauling formula, water, diapers, and TP between Ontario and Long Beach after the Northridge ridge quake. They had a similar logistic issue post quake that cost a lot of needless suffering and lives, and were seriously impressed how GA could immediately be coordinated to provide local and regional relief with all spontaneously coordinated volunteer effort.
 
GA is dying
Its just that aviation nowdays offers very little value. You spend 5-8 grand getting your license fly a few x-c's then what? Spend 400 a month flying every other weekend in a 30-40 year old cessna/piper to stay current. Realize you cant use it for travel on the east coast unless your plans are very flexible.(sorry honey we have to leave a day early looks like weather tomorrow) Also not cost effective or that much faster for a lot of flights.

Theres nothing fun for rent nearby. I can't quite front 20-30 grand to partner with something fun or the 20% down on a rv8 or something. I enjoy flying but after 150 hours its not 100$ an hour fun to bore holes in the sky in a 172.

Theres no social scene, no pilots been super welcoming. I had to practically beg to get 1 of the 3 local flying clubs to even get me info to join. My first time at an airport walk into the FBO right by a Learn2fly here sign. Ignored by everyone so I walked around and eventually left.


For piston GA to grow it should focus on image if they want to attract people. Look at the ICON A5 people love it despite it being a mediocre plane. More guys with Breitling, Raybans, and sexy Ladies, with Glassairs,Diamonds, RVs, or Taildraggers in beautiful sunsets and exotic locations. Flying should be sex, speed, adventure. Sell the lifestyle and people spend the money. Aviation coverage and advertising nowdays is more AARP with boring photos and content.
 
I don't think it will ever die, flight is a ubiquitous desire among mankind, if not densly popular. GA also has practical application in Disaster relief which is why China bought Cirrus, Mooney, and TCM engines. The scale will adjust as technology and society adjusts and in the end be as popular as it can manage to be useful, which is the same primary issue it has now.

You can reduce the cost, you can waive the medical, you can do what you want, but you won't affect the growth/popularity of GA until you make it more useful, or at least more beneficial by adding a social aspect to it. Anyone that can afford a pleasure boat bigger than a dinghy can afford flying, so why do so many more guys spend that money on boats than planes? Because boats bring them two things that planes don't, fishing and sex.
 
Got to see one of, if not the only, Glassair with fully enclosed gear wells/doors last night in person and met the re-builder.

Holy hell that thing is fast. It even just looks fast sitting on the ground. Made me want to learn how to lay up fiberglass.

Personal aviation is moving toward "experimentals" because the traditional manufacturers have failed the market. Cirrus is the closest and their stuff isn't as good as what I saw last night.

That was one damned nice personal travel machine.



I love our 180, but if I had to do it over again knowing what I know, EX class is very attractive.

The liability issue is a hard pill to swallow however. I would not want to be the builder. The builder is liable even after the grave. His heirs can be held liable.

That's why we saw the story of a perfectly good RV-8 being ripped apart. I think we're going to be seeing more stories like that.
 
Are the good times over and GA is in the direction of the economy. I am sure some will say things are in great shape and the economy is rebounding, I am not so sure of that. I might be a little pessimistic, I just do not see the light at the end of the tunnel.


What metrics do you use for the direction the economy is going?

The last 6-7 years of the economy have been very good.

We should hope GA is following the economy.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
The good thing about the Chinese takeover is that the Chinese leadership are fans of GA. GA may become cheaper and more accessible.


Have you looked at reports about China's economy lately?

Remember in the 80's when Japan was going to own the US?

And when the Arabs were?

And then the Russians?

And then Texans?

And then the Chinese?

Lots of resource rich countries have booms and then busts. It happens.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Got to see one of, if not the only, Glassair with fully enclosed gear wells/doors last night in person and met the re-builder.

Holy hell that thing is fast. It even just looks fast sitting on the ground. Made me want to learn how to lay up fiberglass.

Personal aviation is moving toward "experimentals" because the traditional manufacturers have failed the market. Cirrus is the closest and their stuff isn't as good as what I saw last night.

That was one damned nice personal travel machine.

No you don't...:lol: Actually laying up isn't bad, trimming and fitting is miserable, itchy, work, and fairing painful drudgery.;)
 
GA is dying
Its just that aviation nowdays offers very little value. You spend 5-8 grand getting your license fly a few x-c's then what? Spend 400 a month flying every other weekend in a 30-40 year old cessna/piper to stay current. Realize you cant use it for travel on the east coast unless your plans are very flexible.(sorry honey we have to leave a day early looks like weather tomorrow) Also not cost effective or that much faster for a lot of flights.

Theres nothing fun for rent nearby. I can't quite front 20-30 grand to partner with something fun or the 20% down on a rv8 or something. I enjoy flying but after 150 hours its not 100$ an hour fun to bore holes in the sky in a 172.

Theres no social scene, no pilots been super welcoming. I had to practically beg to get 1 of the 3 local flying clubs to even get me info to join. My first time at an airport walk into the FBO right by a Learn2fly here sign. Ignored by everyone so I walked around and eventually left.


For piston GA to grow it should focus on image if they want to attract people. Look at the ICON A5 people love it despite it being a mediocre plane. More guys with Breitling, Raybans, and sexy Ladies, with Glassairs,Diamonds, RVs, or Taildraggers in beautiful sunsets and exotic locations. Flying should be sex, speed, adventure. Sell the lifestyle and people spend the money. Aviation coverage and advertising nowdays is more AARP with boring photos and content.

This times a 1,000. I love to fly and I won't quit but I'm also honest with myself about the limitations of not owning a plane. If I owned a plane I'd be all in but I'm renting and don't see that changing soon.
 
Theres no social scene, no pilots been super welcoming.

Must be a regional thing.

Down here the EAA Chapters do stuff all the time - had a Xmas lunch yesterday in Blairsville, GA with that chapter and we just started Chapter 1579 out of Copperhill, TN where we plan fly-ins and lunches and meet-and-greets and the like.

Plus the folks up at the Tellico Plains, TN airport have regular monthly fly-ins as well.

Sorry you have not felt welcome - is there an EAA chapter near you?
 
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Have you looked at reports about China's economy lately?

Remember in the 80's when Japan was going to own the US?

And when the Arabs were?

And then the Russians?

And then Texans?

And then the Chinese?

Lots of resource rich countries have booms and then busts. It happens.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You don't understand China, they are still Communist; to them economy is a tool to feed people, not an imaginary product of its own. China has been taking all our dollars we hand them and buying up stock piles of mineral resources all over the globe, huge surpluses, all that big booming stuff was the debt we owe the Federal Reserve buying the Chinese raw resources globally including our own, in trade for many land fills full of crap. The Chinese understood was our weakness is our belief in a fantasy economy, and they have played that to the max. The now own the resources. When the Petrodollar switches to the PetroYuan, the Boxers, the Bolsheviks, and the Persians will have finally defeated their common historic enemy.
 
The Arabs will have no economy once Iran is done with them.

Texas got a boost when China bought the Permean.
 
The EAA segment is good because of much lower cost with home built and experimental aircraft. Thats why I joined and looking at Vans and other experimental like Yak/CJ6 for more affordable flying fun. Plus I have not been able to find a flying club that rents the fun cool stuff outside of boring Cessnas and Piper trainers. Plus One lost the S35 Bonanza and they have a Debonair and 210 but it rents for $200+ hour wet and the Cirrus for $300+ per hour.
 
You don't understand China, they are still Communist; to them economy is a tool to feed people, not an imaginary product of its own. China has been taking all our dollars we hand them and buying up stock piles of mineral resources all over the globe, huge surpluses, all that big booming stuff was the debt we owe the Federal Reserve buying the Chinese raw resources globally including our own, in trade for many land fills full of crap. The Chinese understood was our weakness is our belief in a fantasy economy, and they have played that to the max. The now own the resources. When the Petrodollar switches to the PetroYuan, the Boxers, the Bolsheviks, and the Persians will have finally defeated their common historic enemy.


I have passports filled with entry and exit stamps and Visas from going in and out of China. Not sure why you don't think I understand China.

And, if you notice, all the assets they were "buying up stock piles of mineral resources all over the globe" were all bought at much higher prices than they are worth. Their mines in Australia are money pits. Their oil is contracted at outrageous prices. Just the same as when Japan, Inc. was over buying real estate in the US, at outrageous prices.

I laugh when I hear Donald Trump and the other fear mongers worried about the Chinese, despite any knowledge of what is going on.

Chinese President Xi Jinping stated the obvious. "The Chinese economy is a concern for everyone," he said. "We will work hard to shift our growth from just expanding scale to improving its structure."

What he means is that China's economic deceleration -- the official growth rate of 6.9 percent is a six-year low -- is the sign of an economy in transition. It's moving from an over-reliance on exports and government-led investment to an economy that is more consumer-led.

So how's that going? First the bad news: The industrial goods-producing sector of the Chinese economy is in recession and likely to remain there for at least another year.

Now the good news: The domestic-oriented service sector is likely to keep growing at low, double-digit rates -- and that should result in real GDP growth of 4 percent to 5 percent.

Until recently, China's economy grew rapidly, thanks to a booming manufacturing sector that imported raw materials and equipment to produce goods that were exported to North America and Europe. Slow growth in the developed world, however, put an end to that ploy.

China's other stimulus, infrastructure investment, resulted in ghost cities and a pile of debt now totaling 208 percent of gross domestic product. Together, the debt overhang and excess capacity will limit future growth.

Now, exports are declining after decades of 20 percent annual growth. An earlier housing boom, driven by aggressive bank lending in response to the 2007-2009 recession, has been followed by a decline in construction. Growth in capital investment continues to slow. The industrial sector’s growth rate plummeted from a 22 percent annual rate in the second quarter of 2007 to a mere 0.2 percent in the third quarter of this year.


Again, fear of China is like previous fear of Japan/Arabs/Texans/Russians/Etc. that had a boom and spent money like drunken sailors. Not that the life of a drunken sailor is not a good life...
 
I've seen articles saying the middle class is shrinking, That right there is the problem, No matter the cause. The typical buyers of the middle class toys, are not buying.
 
Clearly dying. Every safety event I attend, every flyin, and every get-together all I see is gray hair. Very few young people, nor do they have an interest.

As the population ages and there is minimal upcoming youth, the future is not good, and I hate this.
 
According to wikipedia, in 1956 a new Cessna 172 would have cost $8,700.

According to this inflation calculator I found online, adjust for inflation that would be about $76,000. Imagine how many new 172s Cessna would sell if they could offer them for $76,000. Imagine how cheap an 80s or 90s vintage 172 would be if a new one was only $76k.

An airplane capable of carrying a family of four across the country is just plain unaffordable to most. For those that can afford it, it's still a huge expense for most... hard to justify that to a spouse or even yourself if there are other bills to pay.
 
According to wikipedia, in 1956 a new Cessna 172 would have cost $8,700.

According to this inflation calculator I found online, adjust for inflation that would be about $76,000. Imagine how many new 172s Cessna would sell if they could offer them for $76,000. Imagine how cheap an 80s or 90s vintage 172 would be if a new one was only $76k.

An airplane capable of carrying a family of four across the country is just plain unaffordable to most. For those that can afford it, it's still a huge expense for most... hard to justify that to a spouse or even yourself if there are other bills to pay.

Oh come on. The extra 35 hp and the glass panel easily add $200k to the value of a C-172. Not to mention you can get a beige interior these days instead of the horrendous blue, orange, and red prevalent in 1956.
 
Oh come on. The extra 35 hp and the glass panel easily add $200k to the value of a C-172. Not to mention you can get a beige interior these days instead of the horrendous blue, orange, and red prevalent in 1956.

Is my sarcasm detector INOP again?....
 
The barrier to entry is high, and younger generations don't have the drive and/or attention span to give it the focus it needs to earn the reward. Not enough instant gratification.

Actually, it is GA that has failed to live up to the promise of the super simple to operate machine that can replace the airlines and provide the luxury and ease of the common sedan, or recreational boat. Today's potential buyers, or pilots are just better educated about GA and the thrill of flight is now routine for millions as they fly the airlines regularly. Throw in flight simulators and the remotely piloted drone and there is less and less incentive to spend a load of money and invest a tremendous amount of time.
 
Clearly dying. Every safety event I attend, every flyin, and every get-together all I see is gray hair. Very few young people, nor do they have an interest.

As the population ages and there is minimal upcoming youth, the future is not good, and I hate this.
Gray hair was prevalent 30 years ago. I felt like people who attended these things were old enough to be my parents. Most of the younger people I knew, who flew recreationally, were in my college flying club. After I moved away, the only young people I knew who flew were those aiming at a career.
 
Call me pessimistic, but I think at least a little bit of the allure of aviation is dying away with the younger generation because it involves a lot of hard work and study, and in the US, that's just not valued anymore.

On the other hand, I also don't think GA will very really die away because there will always be people that look to the sky and dream big.
 
According to wikipedia, in 1956 a new Cessna 172 would have cost $8,700.

According to this inflation calculator I found online, adjust for inflation that would be about $76,000. Imagine how many new 172s Cessna would sell if they could offer them for $76,000. Imagine how cheap an 80s or 90s vintage 172 would be if a new one was only $76k.

Bingo! We've got a winnah!

New Cessna/Piper/Beech/Currus/Mooney aircraft are just laughably, stupidly overpriced for the utility they provide, and completely out of whack with their market.

It's to the point where I haven't met anyone who has actually purchased a new SEL aircraft in close to 15 years. Frankly, if I met such a person, I would question his sanity.

All the new and newer aircraft owners I know are in the experimental/Homebuilt world. That's where the technology and innovation is nowadays, and for a tiny fraction of the cost.
 
I love our 180, but if I had to do it over again knowing what I know, EX class is very attractive.



The liability issue is a hard pill to swallow however. I would not want to be the builder. The builder is liable even after the grave. His heirs can be held liable.



That's why we saw the story of a perfectly good RV-8 being ripped apart. I think we're going to be seeing more stories like that.


If companies can force customers to arbitration during a sale with a sales contract, so can an individual seller. Don't want arbitration, they won't sell to you...
 
If companies can force customers to arbitration during a sale with a sales contract, so can an individual seller. Don't want arbitration, they won't sell to you...

Well, if the sellers will accept that. Then there are issues of not being able to waive a dependant's rights. They might not be able to take you to court, but their widow or child can.

I know one guy has a collection of planes that he has built, and many of them have had components cannibalized for subsequent planes. They may fly a couple times. He doesn't care about flying, he loves to build them. I tried to buy a couple of his planes because he is a true artisan at the craft, but he will not sell one. "If someone got killed by a mistake of mine, I'd never be able to forgive myself." "Dude, I've seen your work, I'm not worried." but he won't.:dunno:
 
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I love our 180, but if I had to do it over again knowing what I know, EX class is very attractive.

The liability issue is a hard pill to swallow however. I would not want to be the builder. The builder is liable even after the grave. His heirs can be held liable.

That's why we saw the story of a perfectly good RV-8 being ripped apart. I think we're going to be seeing more stories like that.

I've heard (but can't confirm) that there haven't been individual builders getting hammered in civil litigation on planes they built and latter sold.
 
Lack of compelling lower cost fun factor is killing GA when most kids rather play video games or spend same money on their rice burner cars and stereo systems. I think shrinking middle class a big factor as well. Renting sucks and flying cool stuff requires ownership. I've never seen an Extra, Vans or Yak available for rent.
 
It's to the point where I haven't met anyone who has actually purchased a new SEL aircraft in close to 15 years. Frankly, if I met such a person, I would question his sanity.

And yet, Cirrus has sold how many thousands of aircraft over the last 15 years or so?

Maybe you just run with the wrong crowd! ;)
 
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