G5 broke, can I (owner) swap it?

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stevensun

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Stevensun
Certified aircraft, old G5 is installed using STC. Magically broke somehow. Can I buy a G5 and swap (single screw, pitot/static, and power?) as an owner without A&P?

If I can do that, can I swap with a non-certified version of G5? (Experimental?)
 
I presume the real question is "Can I legally do this?" Certified no.

Second question no, it's a certified airplane.
 
bflynn said:
I presume the real question is "Can I legally do this?" Certified no.

Second question no, it's a certified airplane.
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What about a GPS? GTN650 or 430W?

Part 43, apdx A: owner can do.
(31) Removing and replacing self-contained, front instrument panel-mounted navigation and communication devices that employ tray-mounted connectors that connect the unit when the unit is installed into the instrument panel, (excluding automatic flight control systems, transponders, and microwave frequency distance measuring equipment (DME)). The approved unit must be designed to be readily and repeatedly removed and replaced, and pertinent instructions must be provided. Prior to the unit's intended use, and operational check must be performed in accordance with the applicable sections of part 91 of this chapter.
 
stevensun said:
What about a GPS? GTN650 or 430W?

Part 43, apdx A: owner can do.
(31) Removing and replacing self-contained, front instrument panel-mounted navigation and communication devices that employ tray-mounted connectors that connect the unit when the unit is installed into the instrument panel, (excluding automatic flight control systems, transponders, and microwave frequency distance measuring equipment (DME)). The approved unit must be designed to be readily and repeatedly removed and replaced, and pertinent instructions must be provided. Prior to the unit's intended use, and operational check must be performed in accordance with the applicable sections of part 91 of this chapter.
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You said you had to hook up the pitot system. Is that a tray mounted connector? I thought it required a wrench.

Regardless, you cannot use experimental equipment in a certified aircraft.
 
Tom-D said:
yes these are slide in trays, that qualify for owner maintenance.
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Just trying to put out more facts here.
So from
. (I know it's youtube). That as owners, you can do maintenance but not any alteration (even minor ones). So you can change the light bulbs but not change them to LED ones that requires STC(alteration). You can change ones that's PMA.
https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/practice_areas/regulations/interpretations/data/interps/2009/Coleal - (2009) Legal Interpretation.pdf
From FAA's letter, preventive maintenance list is not exhaustive so simple maintenance that similar to the listed 31 items can be performed. And according to 43.A.31, if you can remove a pannel-mounted navigation, then you should be able to swap G5 (I assume the difference is there is a pitot/static line to disconnect and reconnect).

If I can do that, why can't I swap a G5 that's non certified. (Same part number presumably?) And with PS-ACE-23-08, you can install G5 even it's not certified (nothing on the paper about PMA/STC...).
https://backcountrypilot.org/forum/experimental-gizmo-in-a-certified-panel-22447

So I guess I can do that legally and log in the logbook.
 
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bflynn said:
You said you had to hook up the pitot system. Is that a tray mounted connector? I thought it required a wrench.

Regardless, you cannot use experimental equipment in a certified aircraft.
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From what I heard, no experimental equipment in certified aircraft is definitely wrong.

I assume you can just hook the pitot/static with hand.
 
So you don't have the instructions available to you? That is a barrier too, although I assume you'd get the install instructions with the unit.

I would be amazed if a critical system like the pitot was a hand plug in connector unless it is electrical. There are too many ways for that to come disconnected.

The FAA has given limited authority for certain non TSO systems to be installed, but it is not a blanket authorization. Installing a non-TSO version of a system in place of a TSO certified system is certainly out.
 
bflynn said:
So you don't have the instructions available to you? That is a barrier too, although I assume you'd get the install instructions with the unit.

I would be amazed if a critical system like the pitot was a hand plug in connector unless it is electrical. There are too many ways for that to come disconnected.

The FAA has given limited authority for certain non TSO systems to be installed, but it is not a blanket authorization. Installing a non-TSO version of a system in place of a TSO certified system is certainly out.
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G5 has installation manual online:
http://static.garmin.com/pumac/190-01112-10_09.pdf
4.1.4 Pneumatic Connections
Use appropriate tubing and fittings to connect the pitot and static lines to the unit. Avoid sharp bends in the tubing and route hoses clear of aircraft control cables
Refer to 14 CFR Part 43, Appendix E and AC43.13-1B, Chapter 12, Section 4 for approved practices while installing hoses and connections. If this static source had an alternate static source selector switch, it must be retained.
I don't see AC43.13-1B, Chapter 12, Section 4 say anything about how to torque the connector.
 
My take is that this is not an owner replaceable unit. It does not meet the criteria of tray mounted connectors because the pitot and static lines must screwed in.

I don't believe it's hard and the amount of knowledge needed is probably pretty low. If you have an A&P who will work with you on it, you're probably very capable of doing the work under supervision.
 
If you break into the P/S system it must be leak checked again. I think this is stretched pretty far to call this preventative MX.
 
A g5 is not tray mounted, therefore it can’t have tray mounted connectors.

Find an A&P willing to sign off after inspecting your work. Shouldn’t cost much, maybe even just a case of beer.
 
I can R&R the SL30 nav/com because its tray mounted and designed for push & play. But the little idiot electric clock in the panel, well, that requires A&P signoff because there’s no tray, has an electrical conntector and it must be removed from behind (unscrew 4 screws, push, it falls out the back and usually gets caught in the mess of wires and yoke shaft).
 
bflynn said:
My take is that this is not an owner replaceable unit. It does not meet the criteria of tray mounted connectors because the pitot and static lines must screwed in.

I don't believe it's hard and the amount of knowledge needed is probably pretty low. If you have an A&P who will work with you on it, you're probably very capable of doing the work under supervision.
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murphey said:
I can R&R the SL30 nav/com because its tray mounted and designed for push & play. But the little idiot electric clock in the panel, well, that requires A&P signoff because there’s no tray, has an electrical conntector and it must be removed from behind (unscrew 4 screws, push, it falls out the back and usually gets caught in the mess of wires and yoke shaft).
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Got it, thanks. Yeah I don’t know why Garmin designed G5 to be front mounted and attach to the panel with single screw. I guess they figured that out and changed the design in GI275 ( mount from behind the panel)
 
So...is it not practical to just call the local FSDO office to ask what the FAA actually thinks?
 
stevensun said:
From FAA's letter, preventive maintenance list is not exhaustive so simple maintenance that similar to the listed 31 items can be performed.
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FWIW: unfortunately one version or context of a topic can't always be broadly applied to all topics especially when it comes to LOIs. You could certainly use this letter to make your case on the G5 but you would need a separate LOI to apply that definition to your G5 install as pilot performed prevent mx. Realistically those 31 items stand on face value and when paired with the performance regulation Part 43.13 you would need something more in your hand than a LOI on checking tire pressure to install your G5 as a pilot.
stevensun said:
From what I heard, no experimental equipment in certified aircraft is definitely wrong.
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FYI: Technically there is no classification for "experimental" parts in Part 21. Vendors use that designation to keep from running afoul of Part 21 and Part 3 requirements. Can non-certified parts be installed on a type certificated aircraft? Sure. Except they can not be used as "replacement" parts and must be installed as an alteration which a pilot is not permitted to perform.
 
bflynn said:
You said you had to hook up the pitot system. Is that a tray mounted connector? I thought it required a wrench.

Regardless, you cannot use experimental equipment in a certified aircraft.
Click to expand...
here we go again..... show me the regulations.... help me weirdjim.....
 
Bell206 said:
Define practical.
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How about if I change the question to ask “is it not “possible” to call the FSDO”?

Seems odd that someone might prefer to get the opinion of SGOTI about FAA regulations when you could just call the FAA and eliminate the inevitable arguing and guesswork that goes with any question posed here.
 
In this instance, they only make one G5 unit. The experimental and the certified G5s are identical units, same part number, same PMA markings. When you buy the certified kit, it includes the card to download the STC, which you don't need, as it's already been applied to the aircraft. If you do buy the experimental version, confirm the identical part numbers and the presence of the PMA marking. This is NOT true for all the parts in a G5 install. There are non-PMA'd GAD29's and GMU11 units, which are only for non-certified aircraft, but the G5 there are not currently (however if you got a used or old stock experimental model before Garmin was granted the PMA, it would presumably be different, I've never checked that) As far as owner R&R, I'm firmly in the no camp here.
 
Ryan Klems said:
In this instance, they only make one G5 unit. The experimental and the certified G5s are identical units, same part number, same PMA markings. When you buy the certified kit, it includes the card to download the STC, which you don't need, as it's already been applied to the aircraft. If you do buy the experimental version, confirm the identical part numbers and the presence of the PMA marking. This is NOT true for all the parts in a G5 install. There are non-PMA'd GAD29's and GMU11 units, which are only for non-certified aircraft, but the G5 there are not currently (however if you got a used or old stock experimental model before Garmin was granted the PMA, it would presumably be different, I've never checked that) As far as owner R&R, I'm firmly in the no camp here.
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Thanks for the info, so just have a mechanic watch me do the swap under 30 seconds and sign off.
 
MacFly said:
when you could just call the FAA and eliminate the inevitable arguing and guesswork that goes with any question posed here.
Click to expand...
FWIW: Don't know your experience with discussing various topics directly with the local FSDO, but it's never a guarantee once you do call the FSDO you will get an answer or worse get a different answer from several different ASIs. Sometimes it's best to work out your research online or in the FBO coffee shop before calling your local FSDO.;)
 
I could replace the radio in my old airplane, and in fact did. I could not replace the AI that went TU, as I had to disassemble the panel to do so. At least, I couldn't do so without an A&P's supervision. Thankfully the A&P watched me do it while drinking his beer. Mind you it was just a few screws, but it most certainly didn't fall under preventative maintenance.

If the thing just slides in and out, yeah you can do it legally. if you have to hook other stuff unto it you need the A&P.
 
MacFly said:
How about if I change the question to ask “is it not “possible” to call the FSDO”?

Seems odd that someone might prefer to get the opinion of SGOTI about FAA regulations when you could just call the FAA and eliminate the inevitable arguing and guesswork that goes with any question posed here.
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In some cases the answer is sooooo obvious. And it's usually "No!"
 
murphey said:
I can R&R the SL30 nav/com because its tray mounted and designed for push & play. But the little idiot electric clock in the panel, well, that requires A&P signoff because there’s no tray, has an electrical conntector and it must be removed from behind (unscrew 4 screws, push, it falls out the back and usually gets caught in the mess of wires and yoke shaft).
Click to expand...

You saying the hangar fairies don't change the battery in the idiot clock? ;)
 
chemgeek said:
You saying the hangar fairies don't change the battery in the idiot clock? ;)
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Clock wired to airplane electrical system. I had a windup....it died. Took it to the best watch repairman in town...he loved the clock but admitted the company is gone, no parts anyware. Forced to get an electric clock. I did so love that windup clock. Wakmann, IIRC.
 
murphey said:
Clock wired to airplane electrical system. I had a windup....it died. Took it to the best watch repairman in town...he loved the clock but admitted the company is gone, no parts anyware. Forced to get an electric clock. I did so love that windup clock. Wakmann, IIRC.
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I tried to get my Wakmann repaired recently and they couldn’t find a spring needed. I bought one off eBay that’s working great.
 
Bell206 said:
FWIW: Don't know your experience with discussing various topics directly with the local FSDO, but it's never a guarantee once you do call the FSDO you will get an answer or worse get a different answer from several different ASIs. Sometimes it's best to work out your research online or in the FBO coffee shop before calling your local FSDO.;)
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:yeahthat:

Calling the FSDO is a good way to get a cover their butt answer that could easily just be wrong.
 
Ryan Klems said:
In this instance, they only make one G5 unit. The experimental and the certified G5s are identical units, same part number, same PMA markings. When you buy the certified kit, it includes the card to download the STC, which you don't need, as it's already been applied to the aircraft. If you do buy the experimental version, confirm the identical part numbers and the presence of the PMA marking. This is NOT true for all the parts in a G5 install. There are non-PMA'd GAD29's and GMU11 units, which are only for non-certified aircraft, but the G5 there are not currently (however if you got a used or old stock experimental model before Garmin was granted the PMA, it would presumably be different, I've never checked that) As far as owner R&R, I'm firmly in the no camp here.
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Ryan, I was aware that the hardware for the G5 is the same, whether or not it's the experimental or certified versions, but was under the impression that the software was different, and that the certified version (or maybe both) were not field upgradeable. As I understand it, the certified version of the AI, for instance, can not be switched to an HI display, while the experimental version can. The experimental version also seems to have other functions available that the certified version does not (despite costing appreciably less for the same hardware).

IS there a path to installing the experimental versions of the G5s in a certified airplane, and, if so, is there a way that path would also allow the removal of the vacuum system, or does that 100% require the certified versions?

Thanks!
 
brcase said:
:yeahthat:

Calling the FSDO is a good way to get a cover their butt answer that could easily just be wrong.
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Well, true. Probably much better to go to PoA. Of the many answers that have been proposed in this thread....which one is correct?
 
MacFly said:
Well, true. Probably much better to go to PoA. Of the many answers that have been proposed in this thread....which one is correct?
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The one supported by the regulations.
 
Ryan Klems said:
In this instance, they only make one G5 unit. The experimental and the certified G5s are identical units, same part number, same PMA markings. When you buy the certified kit, it includes the card to download the STC, which you don't need, as it's already been applied to the aircraft. If you do buy the experimental version, confirm the identical part numbers and the presence of the PMA marking. This is NOT true for all the parts in a G5 install. There are non-PMA'd GAD29's and GMU11 units, which are only for non-certified aircraft, but the G5 there are not currently (however if you got a used or old stock experimental model before Garmin was granted the PMA, it would presumably be different, I've never checked that) As far as owner R&R, I'm firmly in the no camp here.
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Interestingly, the GMU 11 cost same for experimental and certified $275 on aircraft spruce.
 
MuseChaser said:
Ryan, I was aware that the hardware for the G5 is the same, whether or not it's the experimental or certified versions, but was under the impression that the software was different, and that the certified version (or maybe both) were not field upgradeable. As I understand it, the certified version of the AI, for instance, can not be switched to an HI display, while the experimental version can. The experimental version also seems to have other functions available that the certified version does not (despite costing appreciably less for the same hardware).
Click to expand...

Software is exactly the same. If you download the same version from the experimental page and the certified page and run an md5 on it, it’s the same hash. Experimental may release different versions that aren’t released for certified, but it’s the same software. And you absolutely can turn an AI in to an HSI, it’s all just configuration of the software. When installing per STC, you follow how it says to configure it, but as far as HSI vs AI it’s literally a configuration option. The HSI kit comes with a GAD29B and a GMU11, but is otherwise the same hardware and same software as the AI kit. And the software is field upgradeable (updates G5, GMU, GAD, servos etc), drop it on a mini-SD card, slide it in to the g5 and update away. For certified, there is sometimes an AFMS update that needs to be completed as part of the update. I’m also of the opinion that it’s a firmware update, which can alter the behavior of the device (and all the other bits attached to it including the autopilot) and does require a return to service by an A&P (many will disagree I know), but I’m aware this is a task regularly performed by hangar fairies.
 
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stevensun said:
From FAA's letter, preventive maintenance list is not exhaustive so simple maintenance that similar to the listed 31 items can be performed. And according to 43.A.31, if you can remove a pannel-mounted navigation, then you should be able to swap G5 (I assume the difference is there is a pitot/static line to disconnect and reconnect).
Click to expand...

And that's the difference right there. You can't open up the pitot/static systems as owner maintenance, and even if you could you need to recertify. So ya might as well take it to an avionics shop and get it done right.

MacFly said:
How about if I change the question to ask “is it not “possible” to call the FSDO”?
Click to expand...

Possible, sure, but you'll get a very CYA answer. If you want THE answer, you need to write to the FAA Office of the Chief Counsel and ask your question. They'll give you an official legal interpretation, but be aware that you may not like the answer and if you don't like the answer at that point you're screwed because there's no higher authority to appeal to unless you manage to get Congress and the President to take up your cause (it helps if you're already a member of congress *ahem* Jim Inhofe...).
 
Yeah I see that pitot static might be a issue, even it’s just screw on and off. You would assume it’s critical and safety wired, but it’s not.
 
They should make G5’s tray mounted as they seem to fail an awful lot. That said in its current state no you cannot swap it your self. I don’t think you can even buy it your self unless second hand. They usually only sell certified units, which yours must be, to Garmin installers. And yes the static checks will need to be done again.
 
Grum.Man said:
They should make G5’s tray mounted as they seem to fail an awful lot. That said in its current state no you cannot swap it your self. I don’t think you can even buy it your self unless second hand. They usually only sell certified units, which yours must be, to Garmin installers. And yes the static checks will need to be done again.
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I thought you can just go aircraft spruce and buy them, no?
 
The actual physical work connecting hoses to instruments, filters, etc. in the pitot static system is nothing magic or complex in the least...just uncomfortable due to location usually. Working under my A&P, I've done the filters (cartridge and foam sleeve) on a couple Cherokees, replaced a vac pump, and replaced an airspeed indicator which required rerouting hoses and reconfiguring an improperly done "T" branch in the line. The system is one of those things that sounds like voodoo until you look at it and put your hands on it. Once you do, it's amazing how simple it really is. That's true of MANY things on an airplane. Even avionics are just really "connect the dots" with wires, pins, and connectors...there's just a buttload of "dots," and you have to be careful, have patience, and do it right.
Once it's done and your A&P inspects your work and signs off on it, a leak test isn't that expensive at an avionics shop, nor is it a time consuming or difficult process, usually.

Just my recent personal experience,
 
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