MAKG1
Touchdown! Greaser!
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MAKG
I understand your feelings, but part of being PIC is taking responsibility for your own actions. 14 CFR 91.3(a).
frustrated.. please advise!!
- Thread starter einepilotin
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midcap
Pattern Altitude
I am the odd ball....when I am learning somthing I need the teacher to tell me black and white what I did wrong and what I did right.
My instructor is really good at that.
Graueradler
Pattern Altitude
If you use force on the yoke/stick to get and hold the attitude that you want, then adjust trim until no force is needed, there should be no lag.
FlySince9
En-Route
okay... I'll say it.... Maybe you'll never get it... Most people (but not everybody) has the aptitude... You come across as kinda spastic... 50 hours without solo is ridiculous. Your instructor stopped talking to you during the lesson? He's given up... might be the case where you need to as well... I saw a guy go thru the same thing a few years ago... He finally got his license, bought a plane and killed his family (and himself) about six months later...
I know I'm gonna get slammed for this post after all the encouraging going on in the thread... but it had to be said...
I know I'm gonna get slammed for this post after all the encouraging going on in the thread... but it had to be said...
hockeyrcks9901
Pre-takeoff checklist
That could be the case but he should try another instructor. Could be he has a bad instructor, the pendulum swings both ways.
midcap
Pattern Altitude
I got that down now...lol
OkieAviator
Pattern Altitude
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OkieAviator
300 some odd hours, I still don't know how to land...
Dan Thomas
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Dan Thomas
Which is what I suspected when, in your first post, you said this: I believed that I was scanning the pitch attitude before, but apparently I wasn't.
Get your eyeballs outside. This is a PPL course, not an IFR course. I had some students who would fixate on the panel, and it took them longer to learn to fly, with much more discouragement and frustration. I think computer sims do that to a lot of newbies.
Back in the old days a lot of people learned to fly in Cubs and Champs, with an absolute minimum of instrumentation. Many of them soloed at 7 or 8 hours, although things were simpler back then, with no radios to learn to work and so on.
denverpilot
Tied Down
Arghhhhhhhh. I want to beat those types with a stick. Instructors must give something positive to each student or the student will not want to come back.
Sometimes the only positive thing you can find to say is that they actually found the airplane on the ramp and brought the keys with them, but SOMETHING. Sheesh.
That's the only way to give effective instruction. Never critique the person, critique the performance against a standard. Everyone knows they're not Mozart yet, and they know Mozart needed practice too.
Obviously later on, students themselves will say things like "that sucked" without prompting, without an explanation but the instructor had to give the explanation in clear concise terms before that for the student to know what "sucked" means.
Slang in instruction was a pet peeve of my DPE for the CFI ride. "Firewall it"... (What does the firewall have to do with this?)... "Add power..." (How? How much?)...
Try this one sometime. Try to tell someone who's never touched a control in their life how to fly "straight and level" in the least number of words possible including how to accomplish it, how to measure it, and how to maintain it.
Remember, they're 90% saturated from the time the propeller started turning until it stops at the end of the flight. They have only 10% of their brain listening to you.
It's a very interesting thought process. I'm looking forward to working with real students... who will still misunderstand me because I wasn't clear and then try to kill me.
jordane93
Touchdown! Greaser!
Either this or try a new instructor. Most of the time it's the student-instrcutor combo that doesn't get along but in the very rare case, the student is just not up for flying.
WannFly
Final Approach
I don't think that's ridiculous, some people are born genius, for others it's 10% genius and the rest is practice. So what if someone takes 70 hrs to solo or 120 hrs? I am new, so may be I don't get it, but does the hrs matter? $$ aside of cource. I am sure there are pilots out there who soloed at 10 and still managed to kill themselves
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jordane93
Touchdown! Greaser!
Hours don't matter but if someone is flying consistently and not soloing with 70-100+ hours, there may be an issue. Personally, if I can't solo a student by 30 hours, I send them up with another instructor. I'm not going to milk him/her. It's probably because I wasn't teaching them something correctly or the student just doesn't get it, which happens on rare occasions. In your case, it sounds like you just need to try another CFI.
danhagan
En-Route
It's been years, but I had some problems between 10-20 hours. Cure was to make an effort at startup to make sure the seat is in the EXACT same position EVERYTIME including vertical. So in the 152 I was always 4 fingers from the roof and I believe it was a couple of clicks forward of max rear seat position. Makes the site picture identical every flight so you don't "chase the picture" each flight.
MAKG1
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MAKG
Arghhhhhhhh. I want to beat those types with a stick. Instructors must give something positive to each student or the student will not want to come back.
Sometimes the only positive thing you can find to say is that they actually found the airplane on the ramp and brought the keys with them, but SOMETHING. Sheesh.
That's the only way to give effective instruction. Never critique the person, critique the performance against a standard. Everyone knows they're not Mozart yet, and they know Mozart needed practice too.
Obviously later on, students themselves will say things like "that sucked" without prompting, without an explanation but the instructor had to give the explanation in clear concise terms before that for the student to know what "sucked" means.
Slang in instruction was a pet peeve of my DPE for the CFI ride. "Firewall it"... (What does the firewall have to do with this?)... "Add power..." (How? How much?)...
Try this one sometime. Try to tell someone who's never touched a control in their life how to fly "straight and level" in the least number of words possible including how to accomplish it, how to measure it, and how to maintain it.
Remember, they're 90% saturated from the time the propeller started turning until it stops at the end of the flight. They have only 10% of their brain listening to you.
It's a very interesting thought process. I'm looking forward to working with real students... who will still misunderstand me because I wasn't clear and then try to kill me.
It's been an interesting effort to try this with CAP cadets, particularly for the first flights.
I always have them adjust the seat (usually all the way up, and with at least one extra seat cushion), and take a sighting on the horizon before engine start. I give them boosts until they can see pavement over the nose. That's roughly what straight and level cruise looks like. I don't have them mess with throttle much if at all on a first flight. Just set it at either 20 or 23 inches (depending if we're going somewhere or not). I do teach them about trim right away, as the way to fly with precision. That doesn't work that well, since they all have death grips. I try to demonstrate one finger flying, and refer students to sighting the horizon during level turns. No climbs or descents at first.
I think at least some of the kids are 100% task saturated. Some of them don't respond to instructions at all and I have to take over from them to avoid something (usually traffic or rising terrain). Some of the kids are afraid to bank the plane because they think it will roll over, so I try to demonstrate stability in a 20 deg bank (hands off). And some of them are naturals. I had one kid dodge clouds for 25 miles and descend to 1500 AGL over the airport before I took over, on his first flight. I would have let him line up on final of CAP allowed that (rules are PIC or instructor is on controls below 1000 AGL).
German guy
Cleared for Takeoff
The OP seems to be from South Korea and apparently also trains there.
I am not sure about how the local culture and training in a country in which GA is virtually nonexistent, help a struggling student.
Since she has abandoned her thread, even though I sent her a PM, in case she didn't subscribe to it, the answer to this question is probably irrelevant anyway.
I am not sure about how the local culture and training in a country in which GA is virtually nonexistent, help a struggling student.
Since she has abandoned her thread, even though I sent her a PM, in case she didn't subscribe to it, the answer to this question is probably irrelevant anyway.
SkyDog58
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Canis Non Grata
The nerve! How dare you write what I was thinking when I typed out post #15.
I just didn't want to go all the way and put it out there. Kudos.
midcap
Pattern Altitude
I would wager that if someone takes that long to solo, then their ability to retain those skills when they take days off from flying is that much greater.
I.E. normal people solo in 10 hours and can fly once a month and stay proficient in VFR Ops.
Someone who takes 120 hours to solo, may need to fly daily just to be proficient in VFR Ops.
exncsurfer
Pattern Altitude
Yea, seems the OP has left the building.The OP seems to be from South Korea and apparently also trains there.
I am not sure about how the local culture and training in a country in which GA is virtually nonexistent, help a struggling student.
Since she has abandoned her thread, even though I sent her a PM, in case she didn't subscribe to it, the answer to this question is probably irrelevant anyway.
I wouldn't say 50 is ridiculous. I'd say it is concerning, and a red flag for you to review your situation to see what the problem is, try out a new CFI or two. Evaluate whether the frequency of lessons is going to work for you, etc. But 120 was thrown out there, at some point it gets ridiculous.
einepilotin
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einepilotin
Thank you for all the advice and help...! It really made me get out of the frustration and keep trying!!
The funny thing is I did solo flight not long after uploading this thread. And it was with another instructor, of course. The new instructor signed me up right after he flew with me once, he was encouraging, made me more confident, and the most importantly, I feel comfortable and enjoy the flight better with this new instructor.
I was reviewing my lessons with former instructor, by listening to the radio record and go pro video, I just couldn't keep watching it. The former instructor is so rude and very annoying right next to me, and I sounded so intimidated and timid because of his attitude. I feel so much better from this change!! thanks!!
The funny thing is I did solo flight not long after uploading this thread. And it was with another instructor, of course. The new instructor signed me up right after he flew with me once, he was encouraging, made me more confident, and the most importantly, I feel comfortable and enjoy the flight better with this new instructor.
I was reviewing my lessons with former instructor, by listening to the radio record and go pro video, I just couldn't keep watching it. The former instructor is so rude and very annoying right next to me, and I sounded so intimidated and timid because of his attitude. I feel so much better from this change!! thanks!!
denverpilot
Tied Down
Congrats @einepilotin - sometimes changes are warranted.
FlySince9
En-Route
Color me wrong! Congratulations, Really!
SkyDog58
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Canis Non Grata
Damn, your old instructor made you feel both intimidated and timid. That really sucks.
Congrats on your solo.
Congrats on your solo.
LT4247
Pre-takeoff checklist
I am sure you got lots of good advice on training. I didnt read all the post but couple of things did come to mind from your OP.
- what airplane are you training in?
- TRIM! Flying an airplane is a finesse thing, keep it set up. She'll fight you if you dont.
- Change instructors for a different perspective.
- Frustrated indeed! Relax bro, breathe. One day it will all click!
- what airplane are you training in?
- TRIM! Flying an airplane is a finesse thing, keep it set up. She'll fight you if you dont.
- Change instructors for a different perspective.
- Frustrated indeed! Relax bro, breathe. One day it will all click!
Harold Rutila
Pre-takeoff checklist
Congrats!
einepilotin
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einepilotin
Thank you so much every aviators here, i read the comments again and again even though i passed this stage of learning. You all really gave me a new prospect to handle flying and it's really precious. wish you all safe flight!
Jeff Szlauko
Pre-takeoff checklist
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ChopperJeff
First, congrats on your solo! I read this entire thread, and found it very encouraging. Unlike you though, I feel like I have a very good CFI. He's very patient, always offering good advice, and is quick to complement me what I do something correctly. However, I still feel overwhelmed with it all, and at times feel that I will never get it. All the posts here on this thread have been great, as I can see how one needs to really just relax with it all, and get the feel of the plane. Easier said than done, but it's so true. Good to see too that I am not alone in how I feel about it all.
Anyways, again, congrats on your solo! I'm looking forward to the day when I will accomplish that feat. Looks like you're doing well...I wish you the best!
Anyways, again, congrats on your solo! I'm looking forward to the day when I will accomplish that feat. Looks like you're doing well...I wish you the best!
Salty
Touchdown! Greaser!
My advice is to approach lessons with the attitude that it's an hour or two getting to fly a plane with a professionals assistance, rather than thinking of it as a "lesson". By following their directions while you fly, you'll eventually learn what you need to and have fun flying at the same time. This approach takes all the pressure off and allows you to relax, and probably even progress faster than you would if you focused on learning directly.
Said another way, at one point I was worried I may not get my medical, and people kept asking me why I'd wasted my time on 10 hours of flight lessons before even thinking about the medical. Because I approached those 10 hours of lessons as I described above, it wasn't a waste at all. I had a blast flying a plane for 10 hours. How is that a waste?
And, using that attitude, I still passed my check ride at 45 hours.
Ps> the attitude I'm describing didn't mean I didn't study or prepare for lessons, that is still necessary, i just mean, while in the airplane, enjoy it as the awesome experience it is rather than pressuring yourself to "perform".
Said another way, at one point I was worried I may not get my medical, and people kept asking me why I'd wasted my time on 10 hours of flight lessons before even thinking about the medical. Because I approached those 10 hours of lessons as I described above, it wasn't a waste at all. I had a blast flying a plane for 10 hours. How is that a waste?
And, using that attitude, I still passed my check ride at 45 hours.
Ps> the attitude I'm describing didn't mean I didn't study or prepare for lessons, that is still necessary, i just mean, while in the airplane, enjoy it as the awesome experience it is rather than pressuring yourself to "perform".
abqtj
Pre-takeoff checklist
Normal solo is in 10 hours? Or do you mean 10 lessons?
That's discouraging, I'm at 13 hours (9 lessons). Close to solo, but probably be 2-3 more flights before I solo.
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mscard88
Touchdown! Greaser!
There is NO normal solo. I solo a student when I feel they are safe and competent to do so. Some CFIs will solo you early, 5-10 hours, shortchanging the student I feel. Some will stress simulated forced landings, slow flight/MCA, stalls, etc, and of course T&L. I'm the latter. Everyone is different and learns at different rates. Just because someone soloed at 10 hours and another at 20 does not make one better than the other.
Don't worry about the solo. When it happens you'll be very pleased but it's just another step along the way to becoming a pilot. You'll do it, and it sounds soon. Let us know how it goes.
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murphey
Touchdown! Greaser!
There's a difference between constructive criticism and belligerence, which is what it sounds like the OP's CFI is doing. My first CFI was also a time building, had no interest in teaching. This was before POA and the flight school didn't care as long as it could bill for CFI and airplane rental time. After 3 months fired both the school and the CFI.
WannFly
Final Approach
Rt now, weather here sucks, it's always at least 15-18 kts wind gusting at 20 or more. I can probably sit out the weather, instead I am choosing to fly and get used to crosswinds. This extends the time I spend training before I solo, and shoots the average time to solo magic number through the roof, but I am learning something everyday and hoping to be a better pilot that way. Chasing a number for solo doesn't make sense to me, but again, I am new and no nothing about aviation
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murphey
Touchdown! Greaser!
I'll let others slam...As pointed out in a previous note, not everyone learns the same way nor at the same pace. I wasn't a 10 hr wonder...in fact I didn't solo until many, many hours and almost 3 years for a variety of reasons including working full-time (and often out of town), executor of my parents' estate (and often out of town), far too many CFIs (they kept leaving or the school went under).
Most people don't have the background in a related activity where they can bring that previous knowledge and apply to the new environment. Hand me any software reference manual and I'll be useful in a week, fairly proficient in about 3 weeks. But I have the background that allows me to transfer that knowledge, the concepts to the new product. But it won't help me flying. I can design and develop the code for the new avionics, but it won't help me to be a better pilot. Not only that, but the domain of flying is both mental and physical, it requires a muscle memory that takes time to learn and integrate.
To me, the #1 issue people have learning to fly is, unfortunately, how CFIs are trained and what the FAA expects of them. Reading the FOI and passing the checkride is neither adequate nor sufficient. Far too many low-time CFIs have no clue about the learning process. They don't understand how to
1) Recognize the problem
2) Understand how to solve the problem
3) Convey the solution to the student
A new student is lucky if they get a CFI who can do the first one. If they can do 2 or 3, its unexpected and the student is incredibly lucky. That's the student that will solo in a reasonable amount of time.
Unfortunately, far too many CFIs are not interested in being CFIs but it's one of the few avenues to racking up hours. I'd like to see an two-track internship approach to flying - those that are interested in teaching, train them to be better instructors, have a mentoring program for them, someone who teaches how to be a CFI. For those who want to fly but not teach, put them into a different track, second-seat on a jump plane or photo operations, perhaps the back seat of a turbine or jet (remember the flight engineer position?) where they can learn by observation, perhaps get some SIC time, learn about CRM for a living, etc. Anything other than making the student pilot suffer with someone completely uninterested or worse, doesn't want to be there.
Frankly, the solo to me was merely a testament to 1) my checkbook and 2) stubborness. I was underwhelmed about solo and really didn't considered it anything more than the checkbox to checkride.
gismo
Touchdown! Greaser!
In addition to what the student and instructor bring to the table, the time required to solo depends heavily on the goals of the pre-solo training. When I got my first training (back when Wilber and Orvile were still alive) the goal of most part 61 (and not just a few part 141) flight schools was to solo students as quickly as possible because the thinking at the time was that doing so made it more likely the student would complete the PPL training. As a result the focus was just being able to land the airplane safely in rather benign conditions. Once someone went so far as to prove they could teach a few total newbies to land an airplane in three hours or less but in real life, soloing in 5-8 hours was pretty common. Of course there were far fewer regulatory issues to master in those days as well and no "pre-solo written test" either.
These days it seems that the focus is more on getting a student to a point where they're much further along the trail to the PPL checkride before soloing and I do think that's a better approach as long as the result isn't just putting more hours in the CFI's logbook.
These days it seems that the focus is more on getting a student to a point where they're much further along the trail to the PPL checkride before soloing and I do think that's a better approach as long as the result isn't just putting more hours in the CFI's logbook.