Frontier Jet strikes person on takeoff in Denver, fatal, 5/9/26

Jim K said:
People are weird. We had a call a couple years ago...an old guy who had gotten a cancer diagnosis downloaded the Amtrak schedule, drove out to a rural crossing in our district, and laid down in front of the train. We got the call to help the coroner pick up the pieces of him and hose off the train. Ruined a bunch of people's day. Wouldn't be surprised if this turns out to be the same deal. At least the train idea didn't do millions of dollars worth of damage.
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A friend of mine was a welder for Amtrak. He said usually what they hit are cows, for whatever reason. Said that they hose off the train, but it doesn't do all that much good, there are still bits and goo stuck in everywhere, and they have to weld and repair around it, it's a PITA and it smells terrible. I'd guess it might be similar for people in trains and maybe people and airplanes. Partially tossing this out in case anyone thinks it's a clean way to go...it is not. Doesn't slow the train down any, though.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Where did you get that definition?
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Well this is one for the books. I tried search for the definition I posted and nothing came up. Stuck FAA in front of it and I found it...
https://www.faasafety.gov/files/events/SO/SO15/2023/SO15120971/V_speeds_-_Wikipedia.pdf

Note that up front it shows faa.safety.gov... so I never really looked past that since it was an real FAA site. BUT, look at the end! It's a Wiki page that the FAA has on their site! My only guess is that it is an old definition, but I don't see a date anywhere so I really don't know.
 
asicer said:
"That was an explosion!"
"Smoke in the cabin!"
"The plane's on fire!"
"Emergency evacuation!"
"We're going to die!"
"Let me grab my carry-on from the overhead bin." o_O
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The thing with people grabbing their bags during evac has been in the news after the last couple of incidents.

Last night I read an account of a woman with newborn on the Frontier flight in Denver. She didn't get any of her bags as she was carrying her child. The passengers were kept in the terminal building in an isolated area while they were accounted for. Then they had to make arrangements for overnight stays, alternate flights, etc. Apparently, getting peoples carry on bags off the plane is a low priority when this happens. This woman had none of the supplies which are normally carried by new parents carrying infants. She claims at one point she asked a Frontier rep about where she could obtain diapers, and the other things she needed and was told by the rep that she "should have brought that with her when she left the plane". If this were true and happened to me, there would most likely be an assault charge pending. ;)

But this begs the question; What if you have meds or some equipment or item that you must have to survive? I have some meds that if I go a couple days without, it's going to be bad. When I travel, I always carry 7 days extra beyond what I need for the trip and they always are in my small backpack that goes under the seat. So if I have to evac an aircraft in a situation like this, is it okay to be "that guy" and grab my small day pack? Or open up the pack and get out the meds before deplaneing? Or plan on a hospital visit to try and get restocked until I either get home or have someone mail me the meds from home?
 
If it doesn’t slow you down, or more importantly, someone behind you… no problem.

Seems rare grabbing a bag at your feet would be “that guy”, bravo for thinking ahead and keeping them there instead of the overhead.

Sitting on an aisle, near an exit with people outboard of you while you root through that bag at your feet… “that guy”.
 
M20K said:
Well this is one for the books. I tried search for the definition I posted and nothing came up. Stuck FAA in front of it and I found it...
https://www.faasafety.gov/files/events/SO/SO15/2023/SO15120971/V_speeds_-_Wikipedia.pdf

Note that up front it shows faa.safety.gov... so I never really looked past that since it was an real FAA site. BUT, look at the end! It's a Wiki page that the FAA has on their site! My only guess is that it is an old definition, but I don't see a date anywhere so I really don't know.
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Well, the current definition is buried in that page, but there’s a lot of bad information surrounding it. V1 only accounts for accelerate-stop and accelerate-go distances in the event of an engine failure. It may or may not limit the ability to stop. It may or may not limit the ability to stop on the runway. It definitely doesn’t address aborting with a blown tire.

And while the words in the definition have changed over the years, the meaning really hasn’t.

Kinda looks like somebody pulled the Wiki for a presentation to make themselves look more photosynthesis.
 
Unless the runway is at the minimum length for your takeoff, there is a range in which V1 can be. V1min to V1max. A V1 anywhere in that range will provide the ability to accelerate-go or accelerate-stop at V1. The V1 that you'll use is based on a number of factors including runway condition and terrain/obstacles. i.e. on a slippery runway, you'll be closer to V1min. When terrain requires a better second-segment climb, you'll be closer to V1max.

The pilots rarely know V1min/V1max for their takeoff and the takeoff data program takes care of all the calculations.
 
Rick A said:
And the list grows... suicide by self, suicide by cop, and now suicide by airliner. Humans are so inventive.
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Jim K said:
People are weird. We had a call a couple years ago...an old guy who had gotten a cancer diagnosis downloaded the Amtrak schedule...
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Was going to mention that suicide by train is also fairly common. Mentally difficult for the engineers, because they have to watch and almost always nothing they can do to stop/avoid it.
 
Bob Newhart had a bit in his Air Traffic Controller routine about a pax on one plane dumping the lav contents on another plane.
Talking to the receiving plane, his reply was "Right in the fanjet, eh?"
 
DJTorrente said:
Was going to mention that suicide by train is also fairly common. Mentally difficult for the engineers, because they have to watch and almost always nothing they can do to stop/avoid it.
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Yeah, it was kind of shocking talking to the crew. The engineer said he had seen several like this. People who want to do it, will find a way to do it.
 
Tools said:
If it doesn’t slow you down, or more importantly, someone behind you… no problem.
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That's the thing, though. Even if it only slows you down by 1 second, if everybody takes an action that serially inserts a 1 second delay, that can add ~a minute-ish to the deplaning process. An emergency evacuation is supposed to be complete within 90 seconds even if only half the exits are available.

An extra minute may not sound like much--and maybe in this case it wouldn't have made a difference--but if the plane's on fire and the cabin fills with smoke, delays can kill people. And like the guy who sits still at the intersection for 10 seconds when the light turns green, it's not the guy who causes the delay who suffers from it--it's the folks behind him who do.
 
I am reminded of the Capten insulation scandal and the flashover on air Canada 797 (June 2, 1983 I think it was a DC 9).
The cabin "flashed over" with many many still aboard and no doubt some pax fumbling in the OH bins.... In an emergency evac you run RIGHT OVER such a person and get the heck out. You've got 90 seconds.

On of the reasons why all the pax survived in the recent Japanese crash with the Coast Guard AC is the pax all got off. That is a culture with inherent DISCIPLINE.
 
bbchien said:
On of the reasons why all the pax survived in the recent Japanese crash with the Coast Guard AC is the pax all got off. That is a culture with inherent DISCIPLINE.
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Our culture will be the death us. Others may die so I won't be inconvenienced.

My wife and I were just watching the documentary last night about the people on cruise ships when COVID first broke out, and that was my thought as well. Priority #1 was not cancelling trips, #2 was getting home as soon as possible when things went wrong, contributing to the world wide spread of COVID. The same scenario is playing out again today with the hantavirus outbreaks.
 
donjohnston said:
The thing with people grabbing their bags during evac has been in the news after the last couple of incidents.
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It may have been "news" after the last few events, but it's been a thing for a LONG LONG time.
 
Tools said:
If it doesn’t slow you down, or more importantly, someone behind you… no problem.
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Actually you are "that guy" if you grab anything. It may not slow you down when you grab it, but when you go to exit the plane it could mess you OR SOMEONE ELSE up trying to get out of the plane.

LEAVE IT! If you have medicine, your wallet, etc., odds are there will be plenty of time to pull it out of the bag at your feet and shove those things in your pockets. But grab the bag... NO!
 
bbchien said:
I am reminded of the Capten insulation scandal and the flashover on air Canada 797 (June 2, 1983 I think it was a DC 9).
The cabin "flashed over" with many many still aboard and no doubt some pax fumbling in the OH bins.... In an emergency evac you run RIGHT OVER such a person and get the heck out. You've got 90 seconds.

On of the reasons why all the pax survived in the recent Japanese crash with the Coast Guard AC is the pax all got off. That is a culture with inherent DISCIPLINE.
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That one killed singer Stan Rogers. It's one of the reasons I always know where the exit is from the time I board (there's been cases, Saudia if I recall, where fires have broken out before the safety briefing even starts) and convince myself I know how to operate it. If need be, I'm going over the top of the seats to get to it. Y'all can follow me out once you get your act together.

But I think you're confusing the causes. This one was fire in the aft lavatory trash bin. There were other fires where the insulation in the overhead panels caused fires.
 
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Agreed. I also read and mentally rehearse how to open the exit door. I think people who sit in that row should be required to watch a FA mock open the door, instead of just asking whatever screen scrolling monkey sitting there if they feel qualified.
flyingron said:
That one killed singer Stan Rogers. It's one of the reasons I always know where the exit is from the time I board (there's been cases, Saudia if I recall, where fires have broken out before the safety briefing even starts) and convince myself I know how to operate it. If need be, I'm going over the top of the seats to get to it. Y'all can follow me out once you get your act together.

But I think you're confusing the causes. This one was fire in the aft lavatory trash bin. There were other fires where the insulation in the overhead panels caused fires.
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M20K said:
Well this is one for the books. I tried search for the definition I posted and nothing came up. Stuck FAA in front of it and I found it...
https://www.faasafety.gov/files/events/SO/SO15/2023/SO15120971/V_speeds_-_Wikipedia.pdf

Note that up front it shows faa.safety.gov... so I never really looked past that since it was an real FAA site. BUT, look at the end! It's a Wiki page that the FAA has on their site! My only guess is that it is an old definition, but I don't see a date anywhere so I really don't know.
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Ahhh, the ol' V49 list.

:biggrin:
 
Albany Tom said:
A friend of mine was a welder for Amtrak. He said usually what they hit are cows, for whatever reason. Said that they hose off the train, but it doesn't do all that much good, there are still bits and goo stuck in everywhere, and they have to weld and repair around it, it's a PITA and it smells terrible. I'd guess it might be similar for people in trains and maybe people and airplanes. Partially tossing this out in case anyone thinks it's a clean way to go...it is not. Doesn't slow the train down any, though.
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donjohnston said:
The thing with people grabbing their bags during evac has been in the news after the last couple of incidents.

Last night I read an account of a woman with newborn on the Frontier flight in Denver. She didn't get any of her bags as she was carrying her child. The passengers were kept in the terminal building in an isolated area while they were accounted for. Then they had to make arrangements for overnight stays, alternate flights, etc. Apparently, getting peoples carry on bags off the plane is a low priority when this happens. This woman had none of the supplies which are normally carried by new parents carrying infants. She claims at one point she asked a Frontier rep about where she could obtain diapers, and the other things she needed and was told by the rep that she "should have brought that with her when she left the plane". If this were true and happened to me, there would most likely be an assault charge pending. ;)

But this begs the question; What if you have meds or some equipment or item that you must have to survive? I have some meds that if I go a couple days without, it's going to be bad. When I travel, I always carry 7 days extra beyond what I need for the trip and they always are in my small backpack that goes under the seat. So if I have to evac an aircraft in a situation like this, is it okay to be "that guy" and grab my small day pack? Or open up the pack and get out the meds before deplaneing? Or plan on a hospital visit to try and get restocked until I either get home or have someone mail me the meds from home?
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So which would one prefer: be alive with dirty diapers or dead with clean diapers. Once off the plane and inside the airport you can solve problems. There's bound to be another parent in the airport that would loan a diaper.

Also it isn't just the time it takes grabbing that bag its also the space. You just added another 6" to 12" to the line exiting the aircraft now multiply times 240 if all did this.

The passengers don't know if this is a 90 second fire exit event or a simple flat tire. You can't have 240 passengers trying to make up their own mind about what's important. Just get off the aircraft.
 
Seems like stuff you need if you evacuate an airliner should be treated like survival gear in your own airplane…it needs to be on your person at all times. Fanny pack, cross body bag, whatever.

But try to convince the masses of that.
 
ionel said:
So which would one prefer: be alive with dirty diapers or dead with clean diapers. Once off the plane and inside the airport you can solve problems. There's bound to be another parent in the airport that would loan a diaper.

Also it isn't just the time it takes grabbing that bag its also the space. You just added another 6" to 12" to the line exiting the aircraft now multiply times 240 if all did this.

The passengers don't know if this is a 90 second fire exit event or a simple flat tire. You can't have 240 passengers trying to make up their own mind about what's important. Just get off the aircraft.
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I agree with you, but I have no idea what your post has to do with my post.
 
I’m not sure there’s a “fix” for this, but a lot of evacuations are… shall we say… something less than life-threateningly urgent.

Not that it’s an excuse, but this is likely a contributory factor.
 
dans2992 said:
I’m not sure there’s a “fix” for this, but a lot of evacuations are… shall we say… something less than life-threateningly urgent.
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That may be true. But if you treat them that way you may pay for it sometime down the road.
 
There’s some thermal (see body heat) type camera (probably security) video out there now recorded from a stationary position somewhere west of the impact sight. It shows a person climbing over the fence, then proceeding to walk across the runway then getting hit by the engine causing an instant fire.

Not sure if this was a suicide, or if this person was just out for a stroll and completely oblivious of the quickly approaching aircraft off to his right side. In either case it didn’t seem like he ducked, changed the speed or stride of his walk, or anything. Just walking across the runway, and whack…
 
dans2992 said:
I’m not sure there’s a “fix” for this...
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Sure there is. If the plane is on fire and the guy in front of you is struggling trying to wrestle his BinMax™ bag from the overhead, refocus his priorities by punching him in the face and helpfully suggesting he get the #### off the airplane.

:biggrin:
 
3393RP said:
Sure there is. If the plane is on fire and the guy in front of you is struggling trying to wrestle his BinMax™ bag from the overhead, refocus his priorities by punching him in the face and helpfully suggesting he get the #### off the airplane.

:biggrin:
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... and if its an 85 year old 95lb grandma?
 
The purpose of the flight attendants is to assist paxs in an emergency, right?

what actions are they trained to do in order to assist in an evacuation?
 
dans2992 said:
I’m not sure there’s a “fix” for this, but a lot of evacuations are… shall we say… something less than life-threateningly urgent.
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20/20 hindsight is not particularly helpful in the middle of an evacuation. At that time, you don't know if, or for how long, the cabin will remain survivable.

In this case, the pilots reported smoke in the cabin as the reason for the evacuation.
 
Make the overhead compartments lock during an emergency and let the passengers KNOW ahead of time that it’s useless to try and open them. It’s the only way. In time, humans will get the message.
 
Brad Smith said:
Make the overhead compartments lock during an emergency and let the passengers KNOW ahead of time that it’s useless to try and open them. It’s the only way. In time, humans will get the message.
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Do you think that will stop them from standing there trying to get them open when they are panicking in an emergency?
 
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