Found a use for vectors to final

Question to the collective. Loading the Approach in ForeFlight.

Taking the advice to pre load the approaches, I edited a few of my ForeFlight plans for practice. I can add the approach if I’m in the maps view, and see the plate on the map with the approach routing, etc. But when I “send it to flights” it drops the approach I had just added.

Can you not have an approach in a flight plan that you file? What am I doing wrong in ForeFlight?
 
Last edited:
WDD said:
Question to the collective. Loading the Appeoach in ForeFlight.

Taking the advice to pre load the approaches, I edited a few of my ForeFlight plans for practice. I can add the approach if I’m in the maps view, and see the plate on the map with the approach routing, etc. But when I “send it to flights” it drops the approach I had just added.

Can you not have an approach in a flight plan that you file? What am I doing wrong in ForeFlight?
Click to expand...
Yes, you cannot. Approaches are not part of IFR Flight Plans. You’re doing nothing wrong in Foreflight. What you see when you go to Flights is what they are going to file with the FAA on your behalf. So they don’t include it there.
 
luvflyin said:
Yes, you cannot. Approaches are not part of IFR Flight Plans. You’re doing nothing wrong in Foreflight. What you see when you go to Flights is what they are going to file with the FAA on your behalf. So they don’t include it there.
Click to expand...
I don't remember the structure of FAA flight plans, but if they have a Remarks field like ICAO and Transport Canada, you could add something like "Prefer ILS 09 for operational needs" — probably wouldn't matter, but it might.

My TC IFR flight plan template has "No over water" in the Remarks to try to convince them not to give me routings across the middle of Lake Ontario (and to save the "unable" and all the renegotiation effort later when I copy my clearance).
 
Got it. So create a flight plan that flies you to the the initial point fix in the approach you want to fly, file it, and load the approach in the GTN 650?
 
WDD said:
Question to the collective. Loading the Appeoach in ForeFlight.

Taking the advice to pre load the approaches, I edited a few of my ForeFlight plans for practice. I can add the approach if I’m in the maps view, and see the plate on the map with the approach routing, etc. But when I “send it to flights” it drops the approach I had just added.

Can you not have an approach in a flight plan that you file? What am I doing wrong in ForeFlight?
Click to expand...
As others said, no. But you can save them with the approaches as a "Favorite" from the Map page. And you can also save them with the approach in the flight plan catalog in your Garmin or Avidyne GPS. (If your CFII doesn't know that, don't worry. I suspect many don't. I taught it to the CFII during my last IPC.)
 
David Megginson said:
I don't remember the structure of FAA flight plans, but if they have a Remarks field like ICAO and Transport Canada, you could add something like "Prefer ILS 09 for operational needs" — probably wouldn't matter, but it might.

My TC IFR flight plan template has "No over water" in the Remarks to try to convince them not to give me routings across the middle of Lake Ontario (and to save the "unable" and all the renegotiation effort later when I copy my clearance).
Click to expand...
Yup. You can put just about anything in Remarks
 
midlifeflyer said:
As others said, no. But you can save them with the approaches as a "Favorite" from the Map page. And you can also save them with the approach in the flight plan catalog in your Garmin or Avidyne GPS. (If your CFII doesn't know that, don't worry. I suspect many don't. I taught it to the CFII during my last IPC.)
Click to expand...
Did you keep track of the time you spent doing that and get credit for it on the bill?:fingerwag:
 
WDD said:
How do you file things? Just to the airport and then request the approach (that you’ve already loaded into the GPS ) when you get close?
Click to expand...
Me? Typically yes.

Others file to the expected IAF for various reasons. A commonly mentioned one is in case of lost comm. Another is, it is on your route of flight anyway. It makes it easier to ask for direct to it fro a distance ATC facility which may not recognize the name.

Understand that in addition to there being a lot of rules about instrument flight, there is also a lot of technique. Filing to an IAF is one of those technique things.
 
luvflyin said:
Did you keep track of the time you spent doing that and get credit for it on the bill?:fingerwag:
Click to expand...
:lol::lol::lol:

But no. It saves me enough time not asking for delay vectors or extra turns in the missed approach hold when ready to go to the next approach that it balances nicely. :D
 
WDD said:
Got it. So create a flight plan that flies you to the the initial point fix in the approach you want to fly, file it, and load the approach in the GTN 650?
Click to expand...
You can do that if you want to, make the IAF you want as the last Fix on your Route. You don’t need to though.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Me? Typically yes.

Others file to the expected IAF for various reasons. A commonly mentioned one is in case of lost comm. Another is, it is on your route of flight anyway. It makes it easier to ask for direct to it fro a distance ATC facility which may not recognize the name.

Understand that in addition to there being a lot of rules about instrument flight, there is also a lot of technique. Filing to an IAF is one of those technique things.
Click to expand...
Yeah. ATC has ‘techniques’ to. Don’t know if they’re still doing it, but Seattle Approach once put the word out to local pilots to quit trying to guess what Approach they were going to get. Just file via a nearby Navaid.
 
midlifeflyer said:
As others said, no. But you can save them with the approaches as a "Favorite" from the Map page. And you can also save them with the approach in the flight plan catalog in your Garmin or Avidyne GPS. (If your CFII doesn't know that, don't worry. I suspect many don't. I taught it to the CFII during my last IPC.)
Click to expand...

is it a II's responsibility to know every tip and trick on every EFB and avionics in existence and teach them all to their students or is it their responsibility to teach them how to fly IFR?
 
luvflyin said:
Yeah. ATC has ‘techniques’ to. Don’t know if they’re still doing it, but Seattle Approach once put the word out to local pilots to quit trying to guess what Approach they were going to get. Just file via a nearby Navaid.
Click to expand...
File to the nearest navaid - got it.
 
WDD said:
I can indeed look at the metars and tafs before I leave/file. But it might change the time you get there. In any event - what I’m doing now is not preloading an approach. I’m being thought to do that on the fly after I get the ATTIS. And ATC vectors me to intercept.

How often does one end up having to change to another approach vs what you had preloaded?
Click to expand...
Occasionally.
 
WDD said:
File to the nearest navaid - got it.
Click to expand...
That’s one way. I’m not saying that’s the way you should. As more and more VOR’s bite the dust, it may not even be a particularly good way in some areas. I just told the Seattle Approach story to illustrate a point
 
WDD said:
How do you file things? Just to the airport and then request the approach (that you’ve already loaded into the GPS ) when you get close?
Click to expand...
Usually, they'll tell you the approach as you get close. You can always make a request if you want to.

You never file an approach in your proposed flight plan route. You can file a STAR if you want (and your airport has one), but coin toss if it ends up in your clearance.
 
WDD said:
I can indeed look at the metars and tafs before I leave/file. But it might change the time you get there. In any event - what I’m doing now is not preloading an approach. I’m being thought to do that on the fly after I get the ATTIS. And ATC vectors me to intercept.

How often does one end up having to change to another approach vs what you had preloaded?
Click to expand...
Well if it’s to an airport with only one Approach, never. Or only one that you have the equipment to fly. Anyway, if you preload your best guess and they give you something different, it takes no more time and button pushing/tapping/twistin and clickin to select and load it than if you waited and done it from scratch on many Navigators. GTN650 being one of them. You just do it. You don’t have to ‘unload’ the one that’s already there first. The one you just put in simply replaces the old one.
 
Last edited:
eman1200 said:
is it a II's responsibility to know every tip and trick on every EFB and avionics in existence and teach them all to their students or is it their responsibility to teach them how to fly IFR?
Click to expand...
I think I've mentioned before that the IPCs I give, in addition to checking the boxes, include at least one task which I've discovered an unfortunate number of pilots don't know how to do with their certified boxes (I don't care if they don't use their EFBs as anything other than a chart reader). My short list includes multiple scenarios for reloading (or changing) an approach. That's mostly because I've seen so many questions raised in which that is the answer. It's a pretty common task but some of the situations are not all that obvious. I don't make this stuff up. They are based on real-life situations where a pilot - sometimes a very experienced pilot - wasn't sure what to do. I teach those with a scenario. Like whether or not to use VTF, all I want to know is, did the plot handle it appropriately, did they get a deer-in-the-headlights look, or did they do something to get away with it like Jerry? If they handle it, I'm done. No need to teach them how to do it or (heaven forbid!) change they way they do it.

So my answers to your question is, I guess it depends on whether you think understanding that sort of stuff is a trick or whether it is part of how to fly IFR.

Pre-loading flight plans in the panel GPS catalog? Mostly just a convenient "tip/trick," although it can be very useful when one really need to go to an alternate. Its use for alternates puts it on my short list, but it's not one I really care about, so I'd agree it's in the "tips and tricks" category unless the pilot regularly flies IFR in low conditions, in which case they probably have far more experience than me and there's probably not much can teach them other than a tip or trick.

Besides, I think I answered a question how to do it, right.
 
I've got my IFR long X Country coming up on Wed. Looking forward to it - hope the weather keeping turning and we're good to go.

Odd question - for the requirement of "three different kinds of approaches", do you have to land, or can you go missed?

(A) A flight of 250 nautical miles along airways or by directed routing from an air traffic control facility;
(B) An instrument approach at each airport; and
(C) Three different kinds of approaches with the use of navigation systems.
 
WDD said:
I've got my IFR long X Country coming up on Wed. Looking forward to it - hope the weather keeping turning and we're good to go.

Odd question - for the requirement of "three different kinds of approaches", do you have to land, or can you go missed?

(A) A flight of 250 nautical miles along airways or by directed routing from an air traffic control facility;
(B) An instrument approach at each airport; and
(C) Three different kinds of approaches with the use of navigation systems.
Click to expand...
Have fun. I dunno about the full stopping thing. Someone will though
 
The rule is just "3 approaches." One has to be a landing more than 50nm from the original point of departure or it isn't a cross country. Intersection of two rules.
 
WDD said:
I've got my IFR long X Country coming up on Wed. Looking forward to it - hope the weather keeping turning and we're good to go.

Odd question - for the requirement of "three different kinds of approaches", do you have to land, or can you go missed?

(A) A flight of 250 nautical miles along airways or by directed routing from an air traffic control facility;
(B) An instrument approach at each airport; and
(C) Three different kinds of approaches with the use of navigation systems.
Click to expand...

Maybe something you and your CFII should be discussing.
 
LesGawlik said:
Yup, but get to the point. I think the controllers see only the first 8 characters.
Click to expand...
I don't think that's true. When we were doing air refueling stuff, we'd write some lengthy comments about tracks, altitudes and receivers, and we'd write even more if we were in formation. I never got the impression that ATC didn't see all of that. Maybe they only see 8 characters initially and have to dig deeper to read the rest?
 
LesGawlik said:
Yup, but get to the point. I think the controllers see only the first 8 characters.
Click to expand...
Yeah. That’s what showed on the strip when I worked. Don’t remember the exact number but I’ll take your word for it’s 8, you obviously know what you’re talking about. With a few button pushes the rest was accessible. I’m sure there is some absolute limit
 
Last edited:
luvflyin said:
Yeah. That’s what showed on the strip when I worked. Don’t remember the exact number but I’ll take your word for it, you obviously know what you’re talking about. With a few button pushes the rest was accessible. I’m sure there is some absolute limit
Click to expand...
If you were a controller, you know infinitely more than I do. I just know what we were supposed to put in the remarks. I figured there was a way for you guys to read it somehow, but I definitely don't know the specifics of how that all worked on that side of the operation.
 
Sluggo63 said:
If you were a controller, you know infinitely more than I do. I just know what we were supposed to put in the remarks. I figured there was a way for you guys to read it somehow, but I definitely don't know the specifics of how that all worked on that side of the operation.
Click to expand...
I’m sure the details of the specifics are different now, it’s been 20 years, but the basics do not seem to have changed a lot. For AR’s we’d know what was coming from advance notice of the ALTRV and wouldn’t have to be looking for a full readout of the Remarks
 
LesGawlik said:
Yup, but get to the point. I think the controllers see only the first 8 characters.
Click to expand...

On the Opposing Bases podcast, the two hosts (both TRACON controllers) mention exactly this occasionally. They only see a very limited number of characters unless they go deeper into the system to see more, which they usually don't have time to do.
 
Load vs Load and Activate? I assume you always "Load". When the GTN sees that you are headed to a waypoint will automatically activate it.

Thus, no need to ever "Load and Activate". Am I missing something?
 
WDD said:
Load vs Load and Activate? I assume you always "Load". When the GTN sees that you are headed to a waypoint will automatically activate it.

Thus, no need to ever "Load and Activate". Am I missing something?
Click to expand...
It depends. If the GTN works like a G1000, "Activate" takes you direct from your present position to whichever IAF you selected. That may or not be what you want. (I'm not sure what it does if you selected vectors.)
 
I think if I’m “Vectors to Final” it would take me to the Final Fix.

in any case - I believe I don’t have to manually activate as it will do that for me if it sees I’m headed to the the fix per what is loaded.
 
Last edited:
WDD said:
I think if I’m “Vectors to Final” it would take me to the Final Fix.

in any case - I believe I don’t have to manually activate as it will do that for me if it sees I’m headed to the the fix per what is loaded.
Click to expand...

With VTF, activating the approach makes the course along the extended intermediate leg as being the active leg. It does not provide navigation direct to the FAF. Also just because you are headed towards the fix that is loaded, does not alter sequencing in the flight plan.
 
WDD said:
Load vs Load and Activate? I assume you always "Load". When the GTN sees that you are headed to a waypoint will automatically activate it.

Thus, no need to ever "Load and Activate". Am I missing something?
Click to expand...
If you've already been cleared for the approach via a specific initial waypoint, then "Load and Activate" saves a step. Otherwise, I agree.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top