Flying GPS Holding Patterns

Revtach

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Revtach
I can't find any guidance on this in the AIM or IFH.

For a GPS hold with 4nm legs specified, can you fly the hold using 1-min legs instead?

I don't see why flying 1 minute legs would be a problem, but wanted to ask for others experience.

Thank you.
 
IAW with the Instrument Procedures Handbook, the length of the pattern legs (be it time or distance) is determined by ATC or the charted IAP. So I think the answer is fly it as published unless you ask permission to deviate. IOW don't change the leg length on your own without asking first.
 
I can't find any guidance on this in the AIM or IFH.

For a GPS hold with 4nm legs specified, can you fly the hold using 1-min legs instead?

I don't see why flying 1 minute legs would be a problem, but wanted to ask for others experience.

Thank you.
What is your goal? Flying the published distance holds is what your GPS will plot and fly automatically. So 1 min holds won't be "easier". And if you're going to be in the hold for a while, it doesn't make much sense to shorten it.

If you're just looking to shorten the outbound leg of a HILPT, then you can use whatever distance or time you want, as long as it doesn't exceed the published value. That distance is a MAXIMUM holding distance, so anything less than that is perfectly safe. (I don't believe the word "maximum" is used in any official source OTHER than TERPS, though.)

I'm assuming 1 min for you will be less than 4 NM. If you have a ground speed of 240 knots or more, though, 1 min would be more than 4 NM, and that's no good.

Unless they state otherwise, ATC doesn't know or care if you shorten your holding patterns.
 
Per Young 2011
Maybe, maybe not. In Young the comment was "...If ATC verbalizes leg lengths for either a charted or uncharted holding pattern..." But in the LI, they never actually clarified what if ATC does NOT verbalize the length, can you as the pilot shorten what is on the chart?

So I'd have to go with no, only because they have not said you can. And a former senior FAA guy told me once to NEVER interpret what I *want* the Regs to say. So I'd stick with asking ATC, just to be safe. And this way you have it on tape.
 
Maybe, maybe not. In Young the comment was "...If ATC verbalizes leg lengths for either a charted or uncharted holding pattern..." But in the LI, they never actually clarified what if ATC does NOT verbalize the length, can you as the pilot shorten what is on the chart?

So I'd have to go with no, only because they have not said you can. And a former senior FAA guy told me once to NEVER interpret what I *want* the Regs to say. So I'd stick with asking ATC, just to be safe. And this way you have it on tape.
Although I know I can shorten it, I always inform ATC I am going to.

My “First Commandment” of IFR: alway be on the same page as ATC.
 
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they never actually clarified what if ATC does NOT verbalize the length, can you as the pilot shorten what is on the chart?
Are we reading the same letter?
it is permissible, without specific ATC clearance, to shorten published outbound DME legs in a holding pattern as long as the issued holding pattern leg length is not exceeded.
Sounds pretty clear to me.
 
Are we reading the same letter?
Yes, we read the same letter.... Are we reading the same question posted? We're not talking DME legs, just charted legs. Splitting hairs I know, but that's the FAA way. :)
 
Yes, we read the same letter.... Are we reading the same question posted? We're not talking DME legs, just charted legs. Splitting hairs I know, but that's the FAA way. :)

“You can measure this with a yardstick.”
“Aha! That means you can’t use a ruler.”
Not really.
 
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I can't find any guidance on this in the AIM or IFH.

For a GPS hold with 4nm legs specified, can you fly the hold using 1-min legs instead?

I don't see why flying 1 minute legs would be a problem, but wanted to ask for others experience.

Thank you.
What’s your altitude and speed. What are the winds. You could get outside of protected airspace doing the 1 minute thing. Say you’re above 14,000 where the holding speed limit is 265 knots. 60 knots is a mile a minute. Above 6000 to 14,000 is 230 knots. 6000 and below is 2000 knots. Even at the lower altitudes, if there is a pretty hefty tailwind on the outbound leg you could be exceeding the pattern.
 
What’s your altitude and speed. What are the winds. You could get outside of protected airspace doing the 1 minute thing. Say you’re above 14,000 where the holding speed limit is 265 knots. 60 knots is a mile a minute. Above 6000 to 14,000 is 230 knots. 6000 and below is 2000 knots. Even at the lower altitudes, if there is a pretty hefty tailwind on the outbound leg you could be exceeding the pattern.
Just a WAG that the question is asking about a light airplane flying a hold between 90 and 120 KIAS and not a turbine flying at max holding speed :D
 
You really won't get out of protected airspace as long as you are flying the hold using normal-ish procedures at or below the maximum holding airspeed for your altitude.

The maximum leg length for a GPS hold increases with altitude (technically it increases with holding template size, but that increases with altitude, so it's effectively the same). So you wouldn't have a 4 nm hold at 14000 or anything like that. Note the holding pattern at somewhere like AEJ, Buena Vista, CO, which at 16000 is a 10 nm leg length.

Holding pattern evaluation is covered in FAAO 8260.3G, Chapter 16. It's rather tedious to get through, but there are some interesting points. First, right from the beginning it talks about the "buffers" or "allowances" added to holding patterns, such as allowing you to be 15 degrees off course, 6 seconds delays on recognizing you've crossing the holding fix, assumed tailwind scaling from 50 knots at 4000 up to 120 knots at high altitude, etc. There is a LOT of buffer built into holding patterns.

Now, when holding patterns are evaluated, the minimum holding altitude is evaluated first. So, say 3000. If holding works at that altitude, then each even-thousand ft altitude above that is also evaluated at its appropriate template size, up to the maximum holding altitude. Each evaluation at a higher altitude has more protected airspace because the TAS increases, and at 6000 and 14000 the maximum IAS (and therefore TAS) also increases. So GPS holding at 3000 is template 5, which has a maximum leg length of 4 nm. But if the maximum holding altitude is 10000, that is evaluated using template 10, which has a 7 nm max leg length.

However, only the maximum leg length for the minimum published holding altitude is shown on the chart. This makes sense because if (in the example above) you fly a 4 nm pattern, you're definitely going to be safe at all altitudes. You COULD safely go longer up at higher altitudes, but how do you know how far? You don't. This information is not published anywhere, unless you took the time to find the maximum template size from the form 8260-2 for the holding fix and cross-reference that with Table 16-10-1 in FAAO 8260.3G. :D

Now, I just said you'd be safe, but would you be legal? If the hold is published at 4 nm and you're holding at 10000 and because you read this thread you decide to do 7 nm legs, is that legal? Probably not in my opinion, unless of course you clear it with ATC. But you will not hit any obstacles or mountains.

Several years ago, we started charting maximum holding patterns on HILPTs. If I recall correctly, the impetus for this was the ALS RNAV (GPS) RWY 20, which now has a HILPT charted with min 11300, max 12000. I seem to remember that when the holding above 12000 was evaluated, the template got larger, encountered some higher terrain, and therefore wasn't possible above 12000. Without having the maximum altitude charted, aircraft could come into the HILPT at 14000 or whatever, planning to descend in holding, but under certain conditions this was not safe. So the maximum altitudes were published.

Note that typically, HILPTs (and their somewhat-related, but not really, cousin the Arrival Hold) are the ONLY place maximum holding altitudes are published. They aren't on missed approach holding or enroute holding. And you'll probably see a lot of maximum holding altitudes of 17500 out there, because that's just what we documented in the source forms before there was any requirement to publish them - since in most areas of the country, if it's clear at 3000, it's clear all the way up to Class A.

As I got typing here, I kind of forgot what point I was making. Oh well!

EDIT - found the Aeronautical Charting Forum discussion on this issue from 2015. I think it's an interesting read, and is one of the least contentious and readily accepted changes to the charting standard that I remember seeing.

 
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Just a WAG that the question is asking about a light airplane flying a hold between 90 and 120 KIAS and not a turbine flying at max holding speed :D

You really won't get out of protected airspace as long as you are flying the hold using normal-ish procedures at or below the maximum holding airspeed for your altitude.

The maximum leg length for a GPS hold increases with altitude (technically it increases with holding template size, but that increases with altitude, so it's effectively the same). So you wouldn't have a 4 nm hold at 14000 or anything like that. Note the holding pattern at somewhere like AEJ, Buena Vista, CO, which at 16000 is a 10 nm leg length.

Holding pattern evaluation is covered in FAAO 8260.3G, Chapter 16. It's rather tedious to get through, but there are some interesting points. First, right from the beginning it talks about the "buffers" or "allowances" added to holding patterns, such as allowing you to be 15 degrees off course, 6 seconds delays on recognizing you've crossing the holding fix, assumed tailwind scaling from 50 knots at 4000 up to 120 knots at high altitude, etc. There is a LOT of buffer built into holding patterns.

Now, when holding patterns are evaluated, the minimum holding altitude is evaluated first. So, say 3000. If holding works at that altitude, then each even-thousand ft altitude above that is also evaluated at its appropriate template size, up to the maximum holding altitude. Each evaluation at a higher altitude has more protected airspace because the TAS increases, and at 6000 and 14000 the maximum IAS (and therefore TAS) also increases. So GPS holding at 3000 is template 5, which has a maximum leg length of 4 nm. But if the maximum holding altitude is 10000, that is evaluated using template 10, which has a 7 nm max leg length.

However, only the maximum leg length for the minimum published holding altitude is shown on the chart. This makes sense because if (in the example above) you fly a 4 nm pattern, you're definitely going to be safe at all altitudes. You COULD safely go longer up at higher altitudes, but how do you know how far? You don't. This information is not published anywhere, unless you took the time to find the maximum template size from the form 8260-2 for the holding fix and cross-reference that with Table 16-10-1 in FAAO 8260.3G. :D

Now, I just said you'd be safe, but would you be legal? If the hold is published at 4 nm and you're holding at 10000 and because you read this thread you decide to do 7 nm legs, is that legal? Probably not in my opinion, unless of course you clear it with ATC. But you will not hit any obstacles or mountains.

Several years ago, we started charting maximum holding patterns on HILPTs. If I recall correctly, the impetus for this was the ALS RNAV (GPS) RWY 20, which now has a HILPT charted with min 11300, max 12000. I seem to remember that when the holding above 12000 was evaluated, the template got larger, encountered some higher terrain, and therefore wasn't possible above 12000. Without having the maximum altitude charted, aircraft could come into the HILPT at 14000 or whatever, planning to descend in holding, but under certain conditions this was not safe. So the maximum altitudes were published.

Note that typically, HILPTs (and their somewhat-related, but not really, cousin the Arrival Hold) are the ONLY place maximum holding altitudes are published. They aren't on missed approach holding or enroute holding. And you'll probably see a lot of maximum holding altitudes of 17500 out there, because that's just what we documented in the source forms before there was any requirement to publish them - since in most areas of the country, if it's clear at 3000, it's clear all the way up to Class A.

As I got typing here, I kind of forgot what point I was making. Oh well!
Yeah. As I was typing that out I was thinking you’d probably never see a 4 mile pattern for an Approach that would accommodate very high performance planes. But I just posted it as a food for thought thing. Does Approach Category enter into the equation when determining pattern size? Like Cat D’s and E’s have a minimum?
 
Does Approach Category enter into the equation when determining pattern size? Like Cat D’s and E’s have a minimum?

A little, but probably not the way you're thinking.

For the most part, meaning over 99%, there is no difference. Maximum holding speeds are sufficient for Cats A-D.

There is an allowance for a 175 kt holding pattern, but this can only be done on a procedure limited to Cat A/B only. The book even says "A 175 KIAS holding pattern is non-standard and is highly discouraged." :D

Military (and joint-use) airfields do sometimes request a higher holding speed (310 kts) for Cat E aircraft, and this brings with it a larger template size and longer leg lengths. But sometimes they don't, and normal holding speeds are used.

And then there are helicopters, which have their own holding pattern speeds on actual COPTER approaches. I forget - 90 knots? 100 knots? Something like that.
 
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