Flying GA into LAX...Should I?

Rykymus

Rykymus

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Rykymus
First, a little background: I've had my PPL for 2 yrs. (Just did my BFR.) I have about 520 hrs, 400 of it PIC, with 112 hrs of cross-country time. I just finished my IFR training, and am polishing up while waiting for my IFR checkride scheduled in about 4 weeks. Most of my time is in my 98 Archer 3, which I purchased about halfway through my PPL training. I'm based at a towered (D) field, have flown in/out of Charlie airports quite often, always use flight following, and once flew in/out of San Diego Int (B) on Thanksgiving day. I'm comfortable with the radio and ATC. (Had a lot of radio experience in my previous occupation.)

Second, the situation: I promised to fly my daughter from Stockton CA to LA this Saturday (Oct 15) to spend the night with her friend in Redondo Beach to help her celebrate her friend's birthday. (I will stay in a hotel.) The next day, (Sunday) I am to fly her from LA to San Diego Int. and drop her off. (She will spend the week there. I will fly back and pick her up the following Saturday.)

My plans: Either LAX or KTOA (Torrance). Both are about equal driving distance to Redondo beach. (Will be picking up a rental car.) Admittedly, fuel and fees are cheaper at KTOA, but there are no real FBO services there ala Signature, Landmark, Atlantic, etc. But I don't mind the additional cost, and enjoy the convenience that the full service FBOs provide. And to be honest, I rather like the challenge and excitement of flying into Bravo airports. (Despite the additional costs.)

So, the question: What advice might you offer? What experience have you had flying GA into LAX? I plan to call ahead for advice. (Worked quite well when I flew into San Diego a couple years ago.)

Any advice would be appreciated.
 
I'm based at Torrance. No FBO, but you can have fuel trucked to your plane at $5.25 a gallon.

You might consider Hawthorne (KHHR) as well, as at least they have food on the field.

LAX... 1000000% you'll have to call ahead and try to arrange a time. Otherwise they'll have you holding for longer than you have fuel.
 
Flew the Lancair into LAX last February during the filming of Real World Coast to Coast. Didn't call ATC ahead of timel. Called the 2 FBOs to get pricing info, neither gave me the sense that calling ahead was even remotely important.

There is no 100LL at LAX, so plan accordingly. Be prepared to keep your speed up as long as you can and you should be alright, they'll make it work.

If you wanna do it for the novelty and experience, go for it. Just know it will cost ~$100 for the experience, and there isn't any 100LL on the field.
 
Lots of other airports in the basin, LAX wouldn't be my choice, Burbank, van nuys, etc etc
 
Forgot to mention, if you're going to be IFR out of LAX or TOA to SAN, you can be forearmed with the TEC routes here: http://myflightroute.com/tecsub.php?type=Q&start=KLAX&end=KSAN (for LAX) or here: http://myflightroute.com/tecsub.php?type=Q&start=KTOA&end=KSAN for TOA.

That isn't an official source, but it pulls the data from official sources. You can, of course, double check by going to the Chart Supplement and searching for TEC routes. The data above is considerably easier to read when you factor in the different runway configurations, though.

From what I've heard from local pilots, while the cleared route is V64 V363 DANAH V23 under normal ops, you'll actually get direct OCN to right around Long Beach anywhere (saves you going the long way around SNA).
 
Just my personal opinion. Unless you're flying something, and are someone that can shoot much of the approach at 180kts or better, I'd go VFR, gives everyone more options on where they can put you and how you can land.

Even as someone who flys turbines and can shot a approach at good speeds, I still don't like to go in and out of major airports IFR, just too much routing.
 
Depends on the time and if you feel comfortable keeping your speed up. I've flown SR22s in most of the class B airports in the NE and north central and it's not difficult because I can give them like 170 until a 1 mile final.
 
I'm OK with keeping my speed up, but for me, that's around 120kts! (140 on descent, or with a good tail wind!) I've been getting more practice with that lately, as an air cargo service started operating out of my home-drome a few months back. Those 767s always seem to be on my tail when I'm shooting the ILS!

Nevertheless, I think I'll do Hawthorne as my first venture into LA bravo. (Only flew over it before.) I'll take on LAX after I get some IR time under my belt.
 
Rykymus said:
Think I'll go to Hawthorne.
Click to expand...
prob the best overall solution - keep in mind however the only real way to get into HHR from the north is:

a) mini route @ 2500
b) coastal route @ 3500 -and
c) descending over DARTS, scoot under the Bravo then intercept the LOC to 25 @ HHR and fly it in -

ATC is cool with C - as long as you tell them when they ask you -

Mini Route is fun - you're right over LAX -
 
What about the SFRA?

Coastal route is 5500. That's one hell of a descent, even to KTOA, let alone KHHR. It technically ends over Long Beach harbor, but you may get a VFR descent out of Class B approved south of Imperial.
 
TOA is by far the closest airport to Redondo Beach and is a great little airport. I am not sure what full service FBO services you are seeking that would make you choose a different airport.
 
MAKG1 said:
Depends where in Redondo. The Northeast is closer to HHR.
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Of course you are right as you always seem to be. I guess I just foolishly assumed they were planning on being near the actual beach portion of Redondo Beach and the pier where most people like to visit and hang out. Of course my opinion was also influenced by my previously living near the corner of Anza Ave & Torrance Blvd where I could walk to the pier and I was also flying out of TOA all of the time. So I am biased. But really, WTF do I know? I moved.
 
SkyDog58 said:
TOA is by far the closest airport to Redondo Beach and is a great little airport. I am not sure what full service FBO services you are seeking that would make you choose a different airport.
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MAKG1 said:
Depends where in Redondo. The Northeast is closer to HHR.
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I'm in Redondo. Hawthorne is about 15 minutes. Torrance is about 20. Of course this varies as you move throughout Redondo, but they're roughly equidistant. And HHR has food whereas Torrance doesn't. Torrance's overnight fee is 15 bucks. No idea what HHR charges.
 
ircphoenix said:
I'm in Redondo. Hawthorne is about 15 minutes. Torrance is about 20. Of course this varies as you move throughout Redondo, but they're roughly equidistant. And HHR has food whereas Torrance doesn't. Torrance's overnight fee is 15 bucks. No idea what HHR charges.
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And where I lived in Torrance which was right down the street from the Redondo Beach pier it was a 10 minute drive to TOA and 20 to HHR.
 
I've been into PHX a few times in a 182, and I would do it again. I would not tackle LAX though in a little guy. You need to consider the delays you'll get trying to get a corridor to come into. Do you know if they even have 100LL?
 
I already ruled LAX out because of their lack of 100LL. (Higher fees helped with that decision.) I'm going to Hawthorne. It is equidistant from the address where I'm to deliver my daughter, but because the FBO will have the car waiting for me, and then check it, without my having to deal with an off-airport car rental company, I'll save at least 15 mins, if not more. And JetCenterLA's prices are not that bad.

Now the issue is the Wx. Forecast is 1,000-1,900 ceilings everywhere west of Cal Poly Pomona. I'm going to stop in Bakersfield, tank up, and check the current weather. If ceilings are solid and low, I'll go over Tehachapi, down the Mojave, then over Cajon pass toward Ontario. The forecast over Ontario/Chino is clear below 12k, so I'm hoping to slip under the layer and straight into 25 at Hawthorne. It's been my experience (at least in Northern CA) that the forecasts are usually more dire than the actual weather turns out to be. If not, then we'll land at either Ontario or Chino, pick up a rental car there, and make the 2hr drive to Redondo Beach.
 
Rykymus said:
I already ruled LAX out because of their lack of 100LL. (Higher fees helped with that decision.) I'm going to Hawthorne. It is equidistant from the address where I'm to deliver my daughter, but because the FBO will have the car waiting for me, and then check it, without my having to deal with an off-airport car rental company, I'll save at least 15 mins, if not more. And JetCenterLA's prices are not that bad.

Now the issue is the Wx. Forecast is 1,000-1,900 ceilings everywhere west of Cal Poly Pomona. I'm going to stop in Bakersfield, tank up, and check the current weather. If ceilings are solid and low, I'll go over Tehachapi, down the Mojave, then over Cajon pass toward Ontario. The forecast over Ontario/Chino is clear below 12k, so I'm hoping to slip under the layer and straight into 25 at Hawthorne. It's been my experience (at least in Northern CA) that the forecasts are usually more dire than the actual weather turns out to be. If not, then we'll land at either Ontario or Chino, pick up a rental car there, and make the 2hr drive to Redondo Beach.
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A lot of times down here the weather prediction is more generous than the weather turns out to be. Ceiling forecasts are usually pretty good... but they tend to predict them burning off quicker than they do. If you're not familiar with the area, make sure you study the Class Bravo very carefully. It's annoying.
 
Hawthorne is basically an extension to the lax airport. Unless your plane absolutely needs a really long runway or your destination is walking distance from LAX fbo, go Hawthorne. In LA there is a huge premium to location. I was in Long Beach and had to go to Hawthorne late in the afternoon, waze said 2 hours. Luckily i had my plane at Long Beach and flew to Hawthorne. Saved over a hour only a couple miles. You are going to want Hawthorne or Torrance, whichever is closer.
Have fun
 
The forecast is showing 1,000-1,900 ceilings. I'll go in as long as I have 1,600 and 3 miles. Less and I'll gladly divert. Well, maybe not "gladly".
 
Agree with HHR. I fly out of TOA, and work for LAX - doubt I'll ever land here. In 15 years I can count the "normal" GA aircraft I've seen on the runways or south side facilities without taking my shoes off :)
 
Apologies, I thought you were already instrument rated, hence my points about the routing. I see now you're finishing up the training but haven't yet gone for the ride.

Best of luck with the ride. This is one of those trips which helps solidify the value of having it :)
 
Jet Center Los Angeles is great at HHR. Super friendly to singles and they have a phenomenal burger joint in the FBO building...Eureka Burger.

If you wanna cross Bravo, the Mini Route essentially drops you right into a downwind for 25.

You certainly can go into LAX, but not many advantages to with HHR literally right next door and a lot of disadvantages as an option. Even a lot of biz jets drop PAX at HHR to transfer to passengers LAX for commercial flights at the main terminals. Easier, cheaper, faster.
 
So, we flew KSCK to KBFL. Refueled and checked the weather, and then flew LHS>V459>DARTS>V186>ITSME>WUJEG>DODGR and straight in to Hawthorne. Easy peasy.

The next day, not so much. The flight out of Hawthorne required a bit of vectoring, and skirting around low clouds, but other than that, we flew into KSAN without any problems. Leaving KSAN an hour later, I had to stay at 900 ft for at least 10 minutes due to low ceilings. After that I climbed and went over the top of LA Bravo and then down to Bakersfield on the other side.

That's when the chain started.

Forecast for the valley was generally 5500 broken, with variations of +/- 500 ft along the way. (Yup, I called every airport AWOS along the route.) It was getting dark (mistake #1) and I wanted to get home so my wife wouldn't go through another night of being scared by herself. (mistake #2) I decided to stay under the layer instead of going over, because I didn't know the tops, and I was afraid of not having a way down at my destination. (possibly mistake #3) I chose to fly at 4500, wanting a little extra altitude, just in case. (It was night) I figured that would put me an average of 1,000 ft below the layer. (mistake #4) I thought of using my Stratus and ipad to watch for weather, but no rain was reported along my route and I had accidentally brought the wrong charger cable and wanted to save the power in the stratus in case I needed it to land at night with no power. (It happened once before a couple years ago.)

About 20nm southeast of Merced, (30 minutes from destination) in darkness, I suddenly lost sight of all the lights below. I looked at my wingtips, and could see my strobes reflecting off of clouds. Yup, I was in them. I was about to descend, when it suddenly started raining really hard, and I got hit with severe turbulance. I reduced power to reduce speed (I was doing about 120 when I hit the cloud) and fought to maintain control. I was getting tossed about like a rag doll. My VSI was swinging from 1500 fpm descents to 1500 fpm climbs, my tail was swinging all over the place, and I was rolling left and right. I hit my head on the ceiling several times (despite both belts) and thought the plane was going to flip over. My altitude had gone from 4500 to 2500 in less than a minute. I was having visions of me starring in one of those accident investigation videos. I called ATC and reported that I was in hard IMC and severe turbulence, and was having difficulty maintaining control of the aircraft. The controller asked if I wanted an IFR clearance (like that was going to help) and asked if the plane was IFR certified and if I was rated. I reported the plane was, but I was trained but not yet rated. I asked for vectors out of the weather, and she told me that their weather radar was inop for that area. (Figures) She started listing off nearby airports and weather, as well as headings. (Like I was going to be able to turn in all that turbulence.) Then, I started seeing flashes of ground lights outside, and a minute later, I was out. The rain stopped, the turbulence stopped, and all the ground lights had returned. I told ATC I was in the clear again. I climbed back up to 3,000, and checked my course. I was 90 degrees off course! (And I swear, I never turned the aircraft!) ATC asked if I needed to divert. I told her to let me check the weather ahead, and she started listing the weather at nearby locations for me. She contacted the towers at my destination as well, and they reported clear to 6,000 ft, and 10 miles visibility with 11kt direct crosswinds. I decided to continue on and arrived without further incident.

I see this as not only a series of mistakes, but also an example of how external pressures pushing me into a bad go/no-go decision. My daughter didn't want to leave LA until noon. (I wanted to leave at 10.) Then, she wanted my to hangout at the FBO in San Diego with her. I stayed a little longer than I should have, and ended up having to wait nearly 45 minutes between taxiing and waiting for my turn at the runway. I should have stayed the night in San Diego and flown home in the morning when the forecast was much better, but I didn't want my wife to spend another night scared by herself.

A lot of lessons in there.
 
Lesson #2...wife will be more scared when you're dead than if you're not home for the night.

- Get that instrument rating
- Don't believe wx forecasts

Glad you're still here to tell the tale.
 
Jeff Oslick said:
Lesson #2...wife will be more scared when you're dead than if you're not home for the night.

- Get that instrument rating
- Don't believe wx forecasts

Glad you're still here to tell the tale.
Click to expand...

More or less.

I'd also add, for convective (sounds like what you hit) that stratus isn't going to update fast enough.

Night or IMC with a possibility of convective, you're going to want onboard radar or push the plane back into the hangar.



Nice graphic, ahh the media, wonder if she makes up for the flaps with the nose wheel retract mod lol
missing+plane14.jpg
 
Rykymus said:
So, we flew KSCK to KBFL. Refueled and checked the weather, and then flew LHS>V459>DARTS>V186>ITSME>WUJEG>DODGR and straight in to Hawthorne. Easy peasy.

The next day, not so much. The flight out of Hawthorne required a bit of vectoring, and skirting around low clouds, but other than that, we flew into KSAN without any problems. Leaving KSAN an hour later, I had to stay at 900 ft for at least 10 minutes due to low ceilings. After that I climbed and went over the top of LA Bravo and then down to Bakersfield on the other side.

That's when the chain started.

Forecast for the valley was generally 5500 broken, with variations of +/- 500 ft along the way. (Yup, I called every airport AWOS along the route.) It was getting dark (mistake #1) and I wanted to get home so my wife wouldn't go through another night of being scared by herself. (mistake #2) I decided to stay under the layer instead of going over, because I didn't know the tops, and I was afraid of not having a way down at my destination. (possibly mistake #3) I chose to fly at 4500, wanting a little extra altitude, just in case. (It was night) I figured that would put me an average of 1,000 ft below the layer. (mistake #4) I thought of using my Stratus and ipad to watch for weather, but no rain was reported along my route and I had accidentally brought the wrong charger cable and wanted to save the power in the stratus in case I needed it to land at night with no power. (It happened once before a couple years ago.)

About 20nm southeast of Merced, (30 minutes from destination) in darkness, I suddenly lost sight of all the lights below. I looked at my wingtips, and could see my strobes reflecting off of clouds. Yup, I was in them. I was about to descend, when it suddenly started raining really hard, and I got hit with severe turbulance. I reduced power to reduce speed (I was doing about 120 when I hit the cloud) and fought to maintain control. I was getting tossed about like a rag doll. My VSI was swinging from 1500 fpm descents to 1500 fpm climbs, my tail was swinging all over the place, and I was rolling left and right. I hit my head on the ceiling several times (despite both belts) and thought the plane was going to flip over. My altitude had gone from 4500 to 2500 in less than a minute. I was having visions of me starring in one of those accident investigation videos. I called ATC and reported that I was in hard IMC and severe turbulence, and was having difficulty maintaining control of the aircraft. The controller asked if I wanted an IFR clearance (like that was going to help) and asked if the plane was IFR certified and if I was rated. I reported the plane was, but I was trained but not yet rated. I asked for vectors out of the weather, and she told me that their weather radar was inop for that area. (Figures) She started listing off nearby airports and weather, as well as headings. (Like I was going to be able to turn in all that turbulence.) Then, I started seeing flashes of ground lights outside, and a minute later, I was out. The rain stopped, the turbulence stopped, and all the ground lights had returned. I told ATC I was in the clear again. I climbed back up to 3,000, and checked my course. I was 90 degrees off course! (And I swear, I never turned the aircraft!) ATC asked if I needed to divert. I told her to let me check the weather ahead, and she started listing the weather at nearby locations for me. She contacted the towers at my destination as well, and they reported clear to 6,000 ft, and 10 miles visibility with 11kt direct crosswinds. I decided to continue on and arrived without further incident.

I see this as not only a series of mistakes, but also an example of how external pressures pushing me into a bad go/no-go decision. My daughter didn't want to leave LA until noon. (I wanted to leave at 10.) Then, she wanted my to hangout at the FBO in San Diego with her. I stayed a little longer than I should have, and ended up having to wait nearly 45 minutes between taxiing and waiting for my turn at the runway. I should have stayed the night in San Diego and flown home in the morning when the forecast was much better, but I didn't want my wife to spend another night scared by herself.

A lot of lessons in there.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the report back. Seems like you learned a lot from that flight.
 
Rykymus said:
So, we flew KSCK to KBFL. Refueled and checked the weather, and then flew LHS>V459>DARTS>V186>ITSME>WUJEG>DODGR and straight in to Hawthorne. Easy peasy.

The next day, not so much. The flight out of Hawthorne required a bit of vectoring, and skirting around low clouds, but other than that, we flew into KSAN without any problems. Leaving KSAN an hour later, I had to stay at 900 ft for at least 10 minutes due to low ceilings. After that I climbed and went over the top of LA Bravo and then down to Bakersfield on the other side.

That's when the chain started.

Forecast for the valley was generally 5500 broken, with variations of +/- 500 ft along the way. (Yup, I called every airport AWOS along the route.) It was getting dark (mistake #1) and I wanted to get home so my wife wouldn't go through another night of being scared by herself. (mistake #2) I decided to stay under the layer instead of going over, because I didn't know the tops, and I was afraid of not having a way down at my destination. (possibly mistake #3) I chose to fly at 4500, wanting a little extra altitude, just in case. (It was night) I figured that would put me an average of 1,000 ft below the layer. (mistake #4) I thought of using my Stratus and ipad to watch for weather, but no rain was reported along my route and I had accidentally brought the wrong charger cable and wanted to save the power in the stratus in case I needed it to land at night with no power. (It happened once before a couple years ago.)

About 20nm southeast of Merced, (30 minutes from destination) in darkness, I suddenly lost sight of all the lights below. I looked at my wingtips, and could see my strobes reflecting off of clouds. Yup, I was in them. I was about to descend, when it suddenly started raining really hard, and I got hit with severe turbulance. I reduced power to reduce speed (I was doing about 120 when I hit the cloud) and fought to maintain control. I was getting tossed about like a rag doll. My VSI was swinging from 1500 fpm descents to 1500 fpm climbs, my tail was swinging all over the place, and I was rolling left and right. I hit my head on the ceiling several times (despite both belts) and thought the plane was going to flip over. My altitude had gone from 4500 to 2500 in less than a minute. I was having visions of me starring in one of those accident investigation videos. I called ATC and reported that I was in hard IMC and severe turbulence, and was having difficulty maintaining control of the aircraft. The controller asked if I wanted an IFR clearance (like that was going to help) and asked if the plane was IFR certified and if I was rated. I reported the plane was, but I was trained but not yet rated. I asked for vectors out of the weather, and she told me that their weather radar was inop for that area. (Figures) She started listing off nearby airports and weather, as well as headings. (Like I was going to be able to turn in all that turbulence.) Then, I started seeing flashes of ground lights outside, and a minute later, I was out. The rain stopped, the turbulence stopped, and all the ground lights had returned. I told ATC I was in the clear again. I climbed back up to 3,000, and checked my course. I was 90 degrees off course! (And I swear, I never turned the aircraft!) ATC asked if I needed to divert. I told her to let me check the weather ahead, and she started listing the weather at nearby locations for me. She contacted the towers at my destination as well, and they reported clear to 6,000 ft, and 10 miles visibility with 11kt direct crosswinds. I decided to continue on and arrived without further incident.

I see this as not only a series of mistakes, but also an example of how external pressures pushing me into a bad go/no-go decision. My daughter didn't want to leave LA until noon. (I wanted to leave at 10.) Then, she wanted my to hangout at the FBO in San Diego with her. I stayed a little longer than I should have, and ended up having to wait nearly 45 minutes between taxiing and waiting for my turn at the runway. I should have stayed the night in San Diego and flown home in the morning when the forecast was much better, but I didn't want my wife to spend another night scared by herself.

A lot of lessons in there.
Click to expand...

Whew! Glad you made it! As others have said, get the IR. It is invaluable in so many ways. Also, someone said never trust the wx forecasts, that's a definite. I have learned that there is no such thing as wx forecasting. It is GUESSING at best. Always be ready to turn around. Had to be "exciting" for you without an IR. Even with an IR, I wouldn't have wanted to be there. I have XM wx in the plane, and it is also invaluable on x-countries. What doesn't kill us, makes us stronger - after scaring the sh-- out of us.
 
I'm not sure how much an IR would have helped with stormy weather, lightning, and severe turbulence.
 
Palmpilot said:
I'm not sure how much an IR would have helped with stormy weather, lightning, and severe turbulence.
Click to expand...

IR smooths out bumps. Everyone knows that. Maxes out up/down drafts to 500 fpm and uncommanded turns are limited to +/- 30 degrees from course.
 
If you get a 25L approach all may be well.... as long as you can keep up with rapid fire instructions. It's a simple left turn to GA.
Now, if you are landing the north complex, you may be sorry you chose LAX.
 
I'm upgrading to ADS-B in Nov [Waas 530w and GTX 330ES] and already receive weather on my stratus - its better thna nothing = but if there isa place for an IFR rating in GA its California.

It may be imposssible to get an IFR OUT of hHR - but if you can take off - stay VFR and head AWAY from LAX toward LGB, and have an IFR on file for LGB - SAN - you can usually pick it up close by in the air and boogie down to SAN @ 6000.

SAN RARELY runs the ILS09 during the day - so its 600' of ceiling to get in . . .
 
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