Flight Plan Filing: Practicing Approches

[AggieMike88]

What tips can you all give for filing an IFR flight plan when the mission is to run several different approaches at different airports?

Today, instructor and I flew the following:

Took off from KGLE
RNAV 35, circle to 17 @ 1F0, Ardmore Downtown
ILS 17, vectors, @ KGYI, North Texas Regional
RNAV 17 @ KGLE, full stop.

I filed KGLE -D-> 1F0, 3000ft. Picked that up after take off and got "as filed" from ATC with my squawk.

After a short bit, when asked what approach we desired, it was then we advised our plan for Ardmore downtown and then wanting to head over to KGYI. ATC gave us the instructions for what to do once we completed the approach at 1F0.

Did that, got back on with him as we climbed out and obtained our amended clearance to KGYI.

Rinse/Repeat out of KGYI for back to KGLE.

Had fun, learned lots, ready to do more of it!

But now I'm wondering if I could have helped be ahead of the game a bit by adding to the REMARKS section something like:

"IFR Training flight. After 1F0, do ILS17 at KYGI, then RNAV17 at KGLE"

Your thoughts?

 

[bqmassey]

Last time I tried to do multiple VFR practice approaches on an IFR flight they wouldn't let me. They said my choices were to skip the approaches, cancel IFR, or file a separate IFR flight plan for each hop. YMMV.

 

[Shawn]

No, you did it right. When I was training, we would just file to the first airport and since it was typically VFR conditions, approach would ask our intentions and I would respond with the approach I wanted, how it was gonna terminate and what our next approach would be then they would ask if I wanted to remain IFR or go VFR...we did both different times, sometimes I needed to stay IFR to punch tough a marine layer. Luckily when we were doing rapid fire approaches at multiple fields, they were all under the same approach controller.

I never gave them more than my current desired approach and what our intentions were immediately after that as our plan often changed depending on how things went.

 

[pilottangocharlie]

Through clearance. You shouldn't have a problem getting it, especially if all you do is fly the approach and aren't stopping.

 

[Qotile]

You can put "multiple apch" in the remarks block. It's short and gets the point across.

 

[Gucci Pilot]

With the FAA form that is probably the best way to do it. Wish the FAA would adopt the DD 175. Filing delays and stopovers are much easier with it.

 

[AggieMike88]

Gucci, which is the best way? We have had a few methods be discussed.

 

[jordane93]

When my CFI and I were practicing approaches, we never filed. We just departed VFR and asked for the approaches.

 

[Velocity173]

I would've filed KGLE 1FO KGYI with your destination as KGLE. Put in the remarks "practice approach 1FO KGLE KGYI". Problem with just filing to 1FO is that's your clearance limit. If you want IFR service after that, you might be putting ATC in a bind if they're busy. In that case they'd have to amend your flight plan each time to a new destination. If it's VMC it's not a big deal because you could just cancel and wait to pick up an IFR after 1F0.

I agree with above. DD175 so much easier that either FAA or ICAO format. You enter each leg with a terminal area delay "R D 0+15".

EDIT: If the computer won't accept airports in the route of flight, then I'd try the closest navaids to 1F0 and KGYI.

 

[AggieMike88]

When my CFI and I were practicing approaches, we never filed. We just departed VFR and asked for the approaches.

Most times, this is true. However, doing this task (picking up clearance airborne, talking with ATC the entire time, me handling the additional mental workload) was something both of us wanted to accomplish.

 

[AggieMike88]

I would've filed KGLE 1FO KGYI with your destination as KGLE. Put in the remarks "practice approach 1FO KGLE KGYI". Problem with just filing to 1FO is that's your clearance limit. If you want IFR service after that, you might be putting ATC in a bind if they're busy. In that case they'd have to amend your flight plan each time to a new destination. If it's VMC it's not a big deal because you could just cancel and wait to pick up an IFR after 1F0.

I agree with above. DD175 so much easier that either FAA or ICAO format. You enter each leg with a terminal area delay "R D 0+15".

EDIT: If the computer won't accept airports in the route of flight, then I'd try the closest navaids to 1F0 and KGYI.

So both the Departure Block and Destination Block would be KGLE, Route would 1F0 KGYI, and Remarks would be "Multple practice approaches 1F0, KGYI, KGLE"?

 

[bluesky74656]

So both the Departure Block and Destination Block would be KGLE, Route would 1F0 KGYI, and Remarks would be "Multple practice approaches 1F0, KGYI, KGLE"?

That's exactly what I do.

Don't count on them reading the remarks, though. I've had a controller thinking I just wanted to overfly the airport. Ended up getting to practice the Crowbar approach.


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[sferguson524]

Out in SOCAL when i was doing my instrument training, we would pick up a TEC route from MYF to OKB, fly the VOR approach there, when we were inbound, Socal approach would ask us what we wanted to do on the missed, we'd ask for vectors to the ILS at CRQ, and same deal, we'd tell approach on the missed we wanted the RNAV into MYF. For the south course, it was TEC route into SDM for the VOR, LOC-D into SEE and the ILS into MYF.

 

[spinfire]

When I want to do something like this I'll file KASH to KASH, with the route via the airports (ie, specify KLEB KCON KMHT as the routing if you wanted to do approaches at Lebanon, Concord, and Manchester). Then in the remarks put something like "multiple appchs KLEB KCON". If I'm planning to do full stop landings for night currency reasons I'd probably write "stop and go" in the remarks too.

This technique leaves the clearance limit as your home base so if anything goes wrong you are cleared all the way back there and ATC knows what your intentions are. As usual in IFR the more you can prep on the ground the better shape you will be in the air, and this extends to informing ATC of what you want.

 

[Velocity173]

So both the Departure Block and Destination Block would be KGLE, Route would 1F0 KGYI, and Remarks would be "Multple practice approaches 1F0, KGYI, KGLE"?

Sure if the computer takes it. The question is where will ATC clear you to off KGLE? Hopefully your clearance limit would be KGLE.

It's kinda like using the system like a DD-175 operates. 1FO KGYI aren't considered destinations, they're just delays for approaches.

In the example I attached you can see how it's done in the military. This Huey is just delaying at VAD for approaches. They aren't landing there and getting out like a stopover flight plan. It's just like if they showed up, did a holding pattern and left. As long as you have the fuel required by regs to get to your destination of LSF, you're good to go. I filed a bunch of "round robins" like this when I was in the Army. You SHOULD be able to use this same type of route in your case.

 

[midlifeflyer]

When my CFI and I were practicing approaches, we never filed. We just departed VFR and asked for the approaches.

Practice approaches are often done VFR, and often with no ATC guidance at all.

But the question was asking about doing them under IFR, which might also mean in the clouds and not in visual conditions.

There are going to be local variations. The one I used to use in the Denver area was to file my departure and destination as the same and choose the first airport for the practice approaches (or an off airport fix if we were staying at the home drome) as an intermediate waypoint and place "practice approaches" in the comments. When checking in with ATC after takeoff, the first query to us was usually, "what would you like first?"

 

[ARFlyer]

Around three years ago I was advised by Memphis Center that round robin/multiple airport IFR FPs wouldn't be accepted any longer. I don't know if that is just our local ARTCC or system wide. I always just have my students file each leg during the same FS call unless we are going out to eat. Just slap a departure time that allows for some wiggle room.

 

[airdale]

I guess we have it easy, maybe because we never leave the local TRACON's jurisdiction. We just ask our HomeAirport ground control for a "Local IFR clearance beginning with the ILS 27 approach to OtherAirport." They call the TRACON, get us a squawk and give us the clearance:

"Bugsmasher N12345 is cleared to HomeAirport via radar vectors. Climb and maintain three thousand, contact Approach on 1xy.z, and squawk 1xyz." When we're cleared for takeoff we get a heading assignment.

With that clearance, when we call Approach they typically ask "Say requested approach" and then "How will this approach terminate?" at which point we typically say "N1235 will miss and then we'd like vectors for the VOR 9 approach to NextAirport." and they give us instructions for the miss. If we want the published miss and hold we just request it. It's not uncommon, though, for them to bump us up a couple of thousand feet in the hold just to get us out of their hair until we call to tell them we're done in the hold and what we'd like to do next.

I have no idea whether any of this actually gets into the FAA computer or not.

I have never understood getting VFR vectors for practice approaches. Why would I not want to have the controller responsible for separation?

 

[poadeleted20]

Last time I tried to do multiple VFR practice approaches on an IFR flight they wouldn't let me. They said my choices were to skip the approaches, cancel IFR, or file a separate IFR flight plan for each hop. YMMV.

If it's all within the same facility's airspace, one flight plan should do. If you're crossing facility boundaries, a separate flight plan for each boundary-crossing leg is generally required.

 

[ARFlyer]

I have never understood getting VFR vectors for practice approaches. Why would I not want to have the controller responsible for separation?

Well around here it is easier for me just to be "atc" for my student. The nearest approach is 50nm away and center can't receive us down low. If it's a crappy day with the ceilings at 3000, I'll listen to center and make sure there not sending an actual IFR guy down the approach.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I have never understood getting VFR vectors for practice approaches. Why would I not want to have the controller responsible for separation?

Local practice and busy controllers who might not want to provide full IFR separation services for practice.

It was common for there to be 4-6 aircraft practicing approaches, holds, etc to the same airport. Doing it under VFR with ATC assistance but without full IFR separation meant more airplanes able to do them at the same time without taxing ATC resources, especially at busier times. Insisting on IFR would mean delaying vectors or an "unable" for some of the multiple aircraft.

 

[Sac Arrow]

Unless you actually need an IFR clearance for IMC conditions, I see little point to filing for practice approaches.

 

[Gucci Pilot]

Gucci, which is the best way? We have had a few methods be discussed.

Sorry, the way you did it when you flew.

 

[Approach_controller]

I'd file GLE.1FO.GYI.GLE and in remarks include pract appchs.

Unless there is some local quirk the worst thing to happen would be center calling up the controller you're talking to asking about an overdue aircraft unaware you're shooting your second approach.

As to remarks, I don't know how it is in the center, but in the TRACON we only see 12 or 13 character, so if you're super precise all I'll see is Multiple Prac. And as mentioned, I may just not see the remarks. I'd probably just state my intentions on initial check in with the radar controller who controls the airport in question.

Doing it VFR vs IFR, I can get you in faster VFR and any needed climbs or descents for, say, holding in a busy area will be halved.

 

[ChrisK]

Lately up here in Ohio I've had a lot of success filing from my origin to my final full stop destination (for a round robin, I'll file the same for each). I will include each airport at which I want to do an approach as my route of flight, and in the remarks section I request an approach at each intermediate airport (using more or less those words).

I've varied this quite a bit (filed to the first airport, putting all requested approaches in the remarks section, etc); however, the above paragraph has worked out the best with minimal explanation from me once airborne, and the controllers seemed to appreciate that method most.

Edit - that's what the guy just above me said, isn't it? =)

 

[Atcer]

File for the route that you want. (Example: Depart ABC, go to DEF for an ILS, go to GHI for a RNAV, and finally return to ABC.) If you just file ABC to ABC, this does nothing for you or controllers in trying to help you out so file for the entire route. Also, "IFR training," "multiple approaches," et cetera doesn't do anything. If you want a faster service, list what you want in the remarks.

 

[Ghery]

Last time I tried to do multiple VFR practice approaches on an IFR flight they wouldn't let me. They said my choices were to skip the approaches, cancel IFR, or file a separate IFR flight plan for each hop. YMMV.

Around three years ago I was advised by Memphis Center that round robin/multiple airport IFR FPs wouldn't be accepted any longer. I don't know if that is just our local ARTCC or system wide. I always just have my students file each leg during the same FS call unless we are going out to eat. Just slap a departure time that allows for some wiggle room.

If it's all within the same facility's airspace, one flight plan should do. If you're crossing facility boundaries, a separate flight plan for each boundary-crossing leg is generally required.

I had some interesting experiences with this when I was working on my IR a few years ago. Multiple airports with approaches worked fine UNTIL I filed for the long XC. Filed OLM-CVO-HIO-OLM. The clearance received was OLM-OLM. Said nothing about CVO or HIO. Tower said to take it up with SEA center after we took off. Much confusion ensued, but we finally got it straightened out with them and away we went. After that we filed separate plans for each leg when working locally. And this was all in SEA center's area.

Now, I had one where we flew from OLM to BFI, then filed BFI to TIW and a third from TIW to OLM. Spent a bunch of time boring holes in the sky under the hood waiting for a gap in the jets coming into BFI before we could land. Told to exit, then as I did we were immediately cleared back onto the runway for an immediate departure. Didn't even have time to set up the 430W for the next leg. Talk about a CF. CFII reprogrammed the 430W while I made like a shepherd and got the flock out of there. Fun evening.

If we wanted to do multiple approaches to the home drome, that's easy. OLM-OLM with multiple approaches. No confusion with that one.