First real IMC. Holy smokes!

labbadabba

labbadabba

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labbadabba
So, I'm ready for my IR checkride. Simulated checkride, complete. CFII sign-off, complete. Logbook reqs, complete. Written, yep.

This past weekend, we had low CIGS (200-400 AGL) and ground temps in the 50's so it was ideal for IMC flying in January (no ice). I didn't need the flight necessarily to meet the regs but I thought it would be excellent experience and boy was I right. During my training, I've busted a cloud or two but haven't had the opportunity to experience 'hard' IMC.

I can absolutely see now how someone could get themselves killed in IMC. It is very different from being under the hood where you still have some visual cues (e.g., glimpsing the ground from below the hood, seeing sunlight and shadows move across the panel, etc.). Once I got into the solid overcast layer, all visual cues were removed in an instant. Even though I was on my instruments immediately after clearing the fence, I was not prepared for how completely and suddenly disorienting it was once we hit the cloud. We were in a straight climb but my body felt totally upside down. I didn't trust my AI and it didn't seem to be doing what I was expecting it to do when cross-checking. Despite all my training, my six pack looked like it was Greek. I had a moment of terror where my mind couldn't interpret the instruments despite being in a very normal, benign attitude.

It felt like 5 minutes but I'm sure it was maybe only 30 seconds before the mental fog lifted and not long after it was just like being under the hood again, albeit a little more intense and my scan was extra vigilant.

My first approach in actual was a Localizer Back Course to minimums. It was hair-raising to know that I was 400ft AGL with no glide slope, knowing that I was descending towards the ground but not really knowing what was in front of me. Spooky stuff. I wandered off the Localizer a bit when I started to fixate on my altimeter and would have busted the checkride since I was fully deflected. My CFII noted that I was correcting the path and told me just to fly it and see where we came out and sure enough, right at the MDA approaching the MAP I saw the VASI. Should have gone missed but at the time we were off course we were still north of the FAF with no obstacles so my CFII didn't feel we were in danger.

I followed that with a couple ILS approaches which were much more comfortable to fly, knowing that as long I kept that glide slope pegged I wasn't going hit the ground before I was supposed to. Both were basically down to mins, about 300ft AGL.

That flight was probably the coolest damn thing I've done in an airplane thus far.

Now I feel even more ready for the checkride.
 
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I don't understand why there isn't more actual IR when in training... I know there are some places where its hard to come by, but geeze! If its that crazy the first time....:confused:
 
labbadabba said:
So, I'm ready for my IR checkride. Simulated checkride, complete. CFII sign-off, complete. Logbook reqs, complete. Written, yep.

This past weekend, we had low CIGS (200-400 AGL) and ground temps in the 50's so it was ideal for IMC flying in January (no ice). I didn't need the flight necessarily to meet the regs but I thought it would be excellent experience and boy was I right. During my training, I've busted a cloud or two but haven't had the opportunity to experience 'hard' IMC.

I can absolutely see now how someone could get themselves killed in IMC. It is very different from being under the hood where you still have some visual cues (e.g., glimpsing the ground from below the hood, seeing sunlight and shadows move across the panel, etc.). Once I got into the solid overcast layer, all visual cues were removed in an instant. Even though I was on my instruments immediately after clearing the fence, I was not prepared for how completely and suddenly disorienting it was once we hit the cloud. We were in a straight climb but my body felt totally upside down. I didn't trust my AI and it didn't seem to be doing what I was expecting it to do when cross-checking. Despite all my training, my six pack looked like it was Greek. I had a moment of terror where my mind couldn't interpret the instruments despite being in a very normal, benign attitude.

It felt like 5 minutes but I'm sure it was maybe only 30 seconds before the mental fog lifted and not long after it was just like being under the hood again, albeit a little more intense and my scan was extra vigilant.

My first approach in actual was a Localizer Back Course to minimums. It was hair-raising to know that I was 400ft AGL with no glide slope, knowing that I was descending towards the ground but not really knowing what was in front of me. Spooky stuff. I wandered off the Localizer a bit when I started to fixate on my altimeter and would have busted the checkride since I was fully deflected. My CFII noted that I was correcting the path and told me just to fly it and see where we came out and sure enough, right at the MDA approaching the MAP I saw the VASI. Should have gone missed but at the time we were off course we were still north of the FAF with no obstacles so my CFII didn't feel we were in danger.

I followed that with a couple ILS approaches which were much more comfortable to fly, knowing that as long I kept that glide slope pegged I wasn't going hit the ground before I was supposed to. Both were basically down to mins, about 300ft AGL.

That flight was probably the coolest damn thing I've done in an airplane thus far.

Now I feel even more ready for the checkride.
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Nothing quite like IMC. My favorite type of flying for sure. It's crazy you can get your rating without any actual- it certainly is a whole new experience. Glad you enjoyed it!

I do question why your instructor would have you not go missed though. Full scale deflection after the Final Approach fix and not going missed is not exactly my idea of good judgement and I think it is odd your instructor would pass that on to a student.
 
If you have the ability to hit real IMC during training then you should. Shouldn't be mandated but do it if you can. Post checkride don't go jumping through 3 hours of IMC followed by an approach to minimums at an unfamiliar airport. Take time and work yourself up to things like that.

I've had my ticket a good year and a half and did my first true down to minimums approach about 2 months ago. I built up to that through a number of partial IMC or 800 foot ceiling type approaches.
 
neilw2 said:
Nothing quite like IMC. My favorite type of flying for sure. It's crazy you can get your rating without any actual- it certainly is a whole new experience. Glad you enjoyed it!

I do question why your instructor would have you not go missed though. Full scale deflection after the Final Approach fix and not going missed is not exactly my idea of good judgement and I think it is odd your instructor would pass that on to a student.
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We hadn't yet hit the FAF, I was still descending to the FAF. When I noticed the full scale deflection I navigated back, he did point out after we landed that he was about to tell me to go missed but saw that I had already corrected and the needle was coming back. In our debrief we discussed that approach and he felt that I had gotten back to a stabilized approach and we had good obstacle clearance at the time but that I should have gone missed.
 
My primary CFI took me into real IMC, at night, whenever it was available and I was "due".

My first time in IMC:

I'd been under the hood before, but this time it was dusk, dark was a few minutes away, and clg was somewhere around 400 or less. It was great experience to have to transition between visual and instruments for real instead of fumbling with the foggles. It was also very different having full peripheral vision available rather than that tunnel vision from the hood. Plus, getting a feel for what strobes do when you are in the clouds. We flew around for an hour plus, then did an approach back to KOJC into R36. It was way cool to pop out and see the rabbit right off the nose. I know that's the way the system is supposed to work but when you experience it for real, for the first time, it's pretty darn impressive.
 
Matthew said:
My primary CFI took me into real IMC, at night, whenever it was available and I was "due".

My first time in IMC:

I'd been under the hood before, but this time it was dusk, dark was a few minutes away, and clg was somewhere around 400 or less. It was great experience to have to transition between visual and instruments for real instead of fumbling with the foggles. It was also very different having full peripheral vision available rather than that tunnel vision from the hood. Plus, getting a feel for what strobes do when you are in the clouds. We flew around for an hour plus, then did an approach back to KOJC into R36. It was way cool to pop out and see the rabbit right off the nose. I know that's the way the system is supposed to work but when you experience it for real, for the first time, it's pretty darn impressive.
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Awesome, I begged my primary instructors for some IMC time but never got it. I don't think they have an ILS anymore at KOJC which is bummer.
 
I always exposed my students to IMC, and here in the southeast we have many days of it. Even when I was working on my instrument I enjoyed flying in actual vs simulated. Glad you got to experience it.
 
Real IMC in training helps to take the anxiety,out of your first solo IFR flight.
 
I had a my first night IMC experience last week. The first leg of the flight was uneventful, a short flight from KSGR to 11R. RNAV approach, circle to land, touch and go, and we're climbing out and switching back to Houston Approach. Between the checklists, getting the GPS set up, and being told almost immediately to switch to a different frequency, I decided to ask for an initial vector. Changed my heading, switched frequencies, reestablished comms with Approach, and then the worst thing I think a pilot could ever see at night: a bright light seemingly coming right at you. I pulled up and right, glanced down, and sure enough, I had left my landing light on. The bright light was a reflection off of a cloud. Landing light off, return to my assigned altitude/heading and enjoyed the soup the rest of the way.
 
In addition to true IMC, I would like to see real turbulence as a part of training. To this day I have no idea what the levels feel like. Next time we have crappy weather and its safe to fly, I'm going to get my old instructor up and ask him to go find some uncomfortable air space so I have something reverence!! Even though my new little plane will do it all for me, I want to experience it first hand
 
Palmpilot said:
I felt fortunate to do a lot of my instrument training at night. I think that went a long way toward eliminating inadvertent visual references.
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Same here. Going forward, if you need hood work for currency, I highly recommend doing as much of it as you can at night.
 
FlySince9 said:
I don't understand why there isn't more actual IR when in training... I know there are some places where its hard to come by, but geeze! If its that crazy the first time....:confused:
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I had to go through 3 or 4 instructors until I found one that would take me into actual. Then the weather always cleared up for lessons :(

Just my luck I guess.
 
I agree that every IR student should get exposed to IMC before their checkride.
It's one thing to assume it's the same as being "blind outside" under the hood, it's a totally different thing to realize that if you take off the hood, there is not savior, you can't see Jack Schitt anyway. It is all mental.

I did not get a change to fly in IMC during my IR training. But one day we woke up to beautiful OVC008 and even though my CFII was busy, I managed to convince my ATP buddy to be my PIC (he is a non-current instructor too). I was glad I got the exposure, it was beautiful in the clouds and even more beautiful to sit on top of the fluff.

My DPE was happy to see an hour of IMC in my logbook. I told him the story how I begged my buddy to go up with me and he commended me on the initiative. He too agrees that every IR student should go up into IMC. (if possible) He told me that he really does not like seeing 0 hrs in IMC on an IR checkride.
While it is not in the regs (hard to find IMC in some parts of the world), every CFII should take every IR student up into the clouds. No discussion.

labbadabba, be safe and enjoy your checkride!
 
Somedudeintn said:
I had to go through 3 or 4 instructors until I found one that would take me into actual. Then the weather always cleared up for lessons :(

Just my luck I guess.
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As my instrument instructor used to say, "Sometimes the weather clears up and ruins your whole day!" ;)
 
I not only had tons of IMC during my IR training, but did my IFR check ride in hard IMC as well. I think IFR training without at least a few hours of IMC (including approaches to near-minimums) is seriously deficient and does not prepare you for the real thing.
 
Absolutely, that's a great experience.

The next thing to do is actual IMC with light turbulence and/or significant winds. It's a whole 'nother ball game.

It's important to relax or you start to death grip and overcontrol. Easier said than done, sometimes.

Now, imagine doing that partial panel. You're not ready yet, but you will be soon enough. You WILL have something fail when you don't want it to. I had two avionics failures in my first year, in IMC. One was a GPS loss of integrity while on an RNAV missed approach (and, out of contact with Approach due to terrain). The other was an electronic (Sandel) HSI fault, where it lost integrity in heading input and didn't realize it. Curiously, it took the GPS display with it (it turns out a GTN650 has a heading-up setting). Put the compass turn training to use. And the usual cover-it-with-a-post-it thing we've all been trained to do doesn't work with an HSI. You need the CDI.
 
FlySince9 said:
I don't understand why there isn't more actual IR when in training... I know there are some places where its hard to come by, but geeze! If its that crazy the first time....:confused:
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Come live up here. Training in actual IFR is the norm. Last week, I was shooting ILS in actual only to break out on final with 20kt gusts at the surface. Today, its CAVU. Even with the hood on, the sun hurts my eyes.
 
FlySince9 said:
I don't understand why there isn't more actual IR when in training... I know there are some places where its hard to come by, but geeze! If its that crazy the first time....:confused:
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Some instructors don't feel comfortable giving dual in actual IMC, others are ok with it. I'll take students into the clouds if they're at a point I feel I can trust them but there is absolutely no way I'd want to do that with someone I haven't gotten a feel for yet.

You'd think that the charter or airline bound instructors would be pushing to get their students into the clouds to build instrument time for themselves, plus expose the student to actual conditions. For some reason it doesn't seem to happen though.
 
FlySince9 said:
I don't understand why there isn't more actual IR when in training... I know there are some places where its hard to come by, but geeze! If its that crazy the first time....:confused:
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I was lucky enough to get about 5 or 6 hours of actual IMC during my training, I got a couple hours of solid IMC on the same flight! It was a little tricky where I took my training as the field I trained at doesn't have an instrument approach so we usually had to "go find it". I will agree with others on here, actual IMC is quite a bit different than being under the hood and being able to experience in my training rather than when I was solo after getting my ticket was definitely a big help. I feel like an instructor that won't take and IR student in actual IMC during training is doing them a disservice, just my opinion.
 
I did most of my training in CAVU conditions. I think most are trained to handle conditions close to minumum height. My biggest eye opener was visibility. When comfortable, fly an approach with less than a mile visibility and that will truly make you much more confident. Nothing like the lights showing up right before you push the throttle in!!!! Totally different than throwing off the foggles and having unlimited visibility! That reminds me, it's time for some actual time!
 
For my long IFR XC, it was flown in almost totally in IMC. Rain, low clouds, even waited out a T-storm at one of the intermediate points. Flying into the clouds at about 600' right after takeoff and then calling up ATC and having to make a 180 to turn on course was disconcerting but I settled in after a few minutes. That was my first actual. Punching through on top was the coolest thing up to that point. Gave me a lot of confidence. If you don't get actual with a vet CFII in the right seat you are selling your training short.
 
Despite my best efforts, I only got about 30 minutes of actual IMC during my IFR training. Since I got my rating last November, I've been out shooting approaches on my own, in IMC, every time the opportunity presents itself. I've managed to get nearly 5 hours of IMC in the last 2 months. The first few times were incredibly scary, especially when the conditions changed on me and everything dropped below minimums and I had to divert. Really eye opening.
 
mondtster said:
Some instructors don't feel comfortable giving dual in actual IMC, others are ok with it.
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Agreed I've heard instructors who themselves have never had actual! My instructor on the other hand was cray cray...in IMC doing a non precision approach to minimums he failed my vacuum instruments. Really?? simulated partial panel in actual on an approach that will go to mins. It was stressful but I was able to do it. Im wondering if he was not stressed as well! Good times!

A few weeks ago on a return leg from an Angle flight I was stuck in the soup for 1.5 hours solid. Never seeing the ground for 1.5 hours gets bad tiring!
 
Glad you were able to have the experience. I had a similar experience about a month before the checkride, my first real IMC in a few years. It went a little more smoothly than your ride I think, because I had been there before and knew somewhat what to expect. It's definitely an experience you DON'T want the first time on your own.

Yes with full deflection you should have gone missed, and that would have been a bust on the ride. Not sure why your instructor didn't tell you so. Maybe since you were correcting and still well short of the MAP it wouldn't have made any difference, you would still need to wait to cross the MAP before joining the missed approach segment. Unless I missed it (no pun intended), it's not clear from your writeup whether you ultimately did go missed or whether you landed.
 
MSUDavid said:
I did most of my training in CAVU conditions. I think most are trained to handle conditions close to minumum height. My biggest eye opener was visibility. When comfortable, fly an approach with less than a mile visibility and that will truly make you much more confident. Nothing like the lights showing up right before you push the throttle in!!!! Totally different than throwing off the foggles and having unlimited visibility! That reminds me, it's time for some actual time!
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I think the lack of visibility is often not understood by students or relatively new instrument pilots until they actually get a chance to see it. Doing an approach to minimums both altitude and visibility wise is much different than doing an approach to near minimums but with good visibility underneath. Oftentimes the only part of minimums that seems to get discussed is the minimum altitude to descend to with no regard for minimum visibility...
 
^the above comment is incredibly true and very important

Doing an approach to 1800-2400rvr with an indefinite ceiling or VV001 for instance is a whole different ballgame...especially at night. Or the non precision where you break out have the lights and can descend to 100 above TDZE but still don't see the runway. It's a lot different than breaking out at 200ft with 10sm below. Once you get your IR keep gaining those great experiences like you just had they will work up your skills and confidence to the lowest of approaches. Never feel pressured to go just because you have your IR
 
During my first IMC experience during training I experienced vertigo for the first time in my life. I had about 14 hrs of sim time and maybe 6 or 7 hrs of hood time when we finally got some solid IMC to fly in. It was a very sobering experience as it was all I could do to keep the wings level. Luckily it only lasted 10-15 minutes but had I been by myself it could have been a disaster. Oddly enough I've not had vertigo since.
 
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mondtster said:
Some instructors don't feel comfortable giving dual in actual IMC, others are ok with it. I'll take students into the clouds if they're at a point I feel I can trust them but there is absolutely no way I'd want to do that with someone I haven't gotten a feel for yet.

You'd think that the charter or airline bound instructors would be pushing to get their students into the clouds to build instrument time for themselves, plus expose the student to actual conditions. For some reason it doesn't seem to happen though.
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I knew of a guy that did some kind of accelerated training at one of the "big schools." Did it in a week or so, IIRC... Anyway, he never saw a cloud the whole time... I watched him launch into his first "actual" one Saturday morning... Just shook my head and wondered how the heck that was possible...not to mention legal... I guess people smarter than me figure its safe... I'm starting my IR soon... I'm gonna insist on a cross country or 2 in actual conditions b4 the check ride, or at least before my fist solo in the stuff... By the way... How many guys found themselves in Actual (for the first time) while on their checkride? And what was that like?
 
simtech said:
...in IMC doing a non precision approach to minimums he failed my vacuum instruments. Really?? simulated partial panel in actual on an approach that will go to mins. It was stressful but I was able to do it. !
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I was returning from MEM to GTR late one night on a check run and I lost vacuum maybe 20-30 miles north of GTR. IMC so I flew to the VOR, tracked outbound to intercept the LOC outbound, procedure turn inbound and broke out around 7-800'. All that tense flying partial panel to fly thru maybe a 500' cloud layer!

So it can happen for real.
 
FlySince9 said:
I knew of a guy that did some kind of accelerated training at one of the "big schools." Did it in a week or so, IIRC... Anyway, he never saw a cloud the whole time... I watched him launch into his first "actual" one Saturday morning... Just shook my head and wondered how the heck that was possible...not to mention legal... I guess people smarter than me figure its safe... I'm starting my IR soon... I'm gonna insist on a cross country or 2 in actual conditions b4 the check ride, or at least before my fist solo in the stuff... By the way... How many guys found themselves in Actual (for the first time) while on their checkride? And what was that like?
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I'm sure it has happened but it is probably pretty uncommon. That would mean filing IFR or at least getting a pop-up, and the DPE would have to be PIC then, something most DPEs decline to do. I think the FAA discourages it, as well.
 
azure said:
Yes with full deflection you should have gone missed, and that would have been a bust on the ride. Not sure why your instructor didn't tell you so. Maybe since you were correcting and still well short of the MAP it wouldn't have made any difference, you would still need to wait to cross the MAP before joining the missed approach segment. Unless I missed it (no pun intended), it's not clear from your writeup whether you ultimately did go missed or whether you landed.
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Yep, he said at the time and at the debrief that going missed would have been the correct action but since I already had the needle coming back towards centerline he opted to let me continue.
 
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