Im looking at buying my first plane and was set on a archer or cherokee 180. I was shopping around and seems like the arrows go for less money than a decent cherokee or archer. Im looking for a plane with around 1000 pound useful load and around $100,000 with a mid-time engine. Not really concerned too much about speed but the faster the better. Id like one IFR rated i dont need full glass panel but would like some decent avionics. Is this possible for around $100,000. It seems like you can get more plane for less money with the Arrow than the archer or Cherokee. How much more would the annual be on the arrow vs the archer on average. I know insurance would be quit a bit more on the arrow as well. A Tiger would be perfect but looks like the run in the $130000+ range. I was also checking out the Cherokee 235. You guys have way more experience so I figured id get some advice from you guys or if you had any other recommendations on different planes. I rent a 172 now but its getting to were its all booked up and can never fly so id figure id look into purchasing one for myself.
First plane? Archer, Arrow, etc. any recommendations
- Thread starter Bobby05
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Insurance will be the kicker on an Arrow and maintenance will be higher, that’s why they’re cheaper. I would go for an Archer, they’re great airplanes!
Half Fast
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Don't overlook Beech B23s and C23s. Performance is about the same as a Cherokee 180 but they usually sell for less, are roomier, and have no onerous ADs.
I love the Tigers but, as you've seen, they're pricey. You might look around for a Cheetah or a Traveler.
Be sure you know whether the wing spar AD will apply to any Pipers you look at.
I love the Tigers but, as you've seen, they're pricey. You might look around for a Cheetah or a Traveler.
Be sure you know whether the wing spar AD will apply to any Pipers you look at.
ArrowFlyer86
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Arrow checks all those boxes.
For 100k I think it's reasonable to get an Arrow with a mid-ish time engine, a 430 GPS (or newer if you're lucky), and G5 or two. If you want more glass or a fancy new modern AP you'll probably be spending a bit more. But 100k can get you a decent arrow.
You pickup some knots over the fixed gear PA28s and dollar for dollar I think you get more.
Your insurance bill will be more expensive for the first year or two, but if you fly a lot it comes down quickly. Mine is down nearly 50% since I bought it in 2020 with ink still wet on my PPL.
As with any aircraft - just be sure you get a thorough prebuy and know what you're buying.
Edit: the annual cost for retractable is not that much more. The real cost of owning a retract is if you forget to put the gear down on landing.
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Eric Pauley
Pre-takeoff checklist
I'll concur that the retract itself hasn't caused that much additional expense. Annuals/insurance are a bit more but so far (fingers crossed) I haven't had any crazy expensive maintenance items on the gear.
I also appreciate the efficiency of the Arrow. The constant-speed propeller and fuel injection really lets you dial in the power settings in cruise. This past weekend I flew at 10.5k density altitude, 130kts true on 8gph (measured with an accurate fuel totalizer). That combined with the 72gal usable on the Arrow III/IV gives you a lot of flexibility in your flight planning. Or fill the tanks to 50gal, treat it like an Arrow II, and get extra payload.
About how much is your average annual and insurance on the arrow? I like the archer but seems every decent one out there is $130,000 or more unless its right at TBO. I guess its more desirable for flight training and cheaper insurance/mx which drives the price up.
Eric Pauley
Pre-takeoff checklist
I just had my fourth renewal, and prices have definitely changed as I built time.
My first year (2021) I had 109TT, 0 in type. Cost was $2900 on a 90k insured value.
Now I have 300TT, 200 in type, and paid $2500 on 160k hull value (put in a lot of avionics).
So just like ArrowFlyer86 I had roughly a 50% reduction in a % of hull value basis. As always the best way to find out is to quote for yourself. I got insurance quotes on prospective N#s before signing anything.
JScarry
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My brother has a 1977 Turbo Arrow and I was curious about whether the gear required any extra maintenance. Looking through the books I found one replacement of downlocks, something about the emergency gear extender R&R, replacement of the nose gear door rod ends. replacement of nose gear limit switch, adjustment of nose gear limit switch, and lots of tire replacements.
He’s owned it since 2017 and we haven’t replaced any tires or had any problems with the gear.
It does take an extra quarter-hour or so to swing the gear during the annual. I agree with ArrowFlyer that the additional cost of maintenance for the Arrow is minimal.
He’s owned it since 2017 and we haven’t replaced any tires or had any problems with the gear.
It does take an extra quarter-hour or so to swing the gear during the annual. I agree with ArrowFlyer that the additional cost of maintenance for the Arrow is minimal.
ArrowFlyer86
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Insurance my first year when I had 56h and 1 complex hour. Like 3700ish on a 75k hull.
Now, at 660h TT and 600 in type it's about 2100.
Annuals vary. Mine are a bad point of reference because I do a lot of optional stuff. The first year will be brutal probably, same with any plane. After that I think 4-7k is reasonable for annual. But like any model you buy, you gotta be ready to throw down a check that breaks that budget heuristic whenever something goes TU.
2-Bit Speed
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I cannot express how tempted I was to reply to Arrow or Archer with Trebuchet...
Rgbeard
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The retractable gear has a negligible impact on your maintenance costs unless you have a hydraulic power pack fail.
mandm
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I really like the Arrow, lots of great things about it.
First the 30’ wingspan gives me extra room in my hangar.
Second the fuel consumption is awesome, you can lean it and fly high and slower at 6-7gph, and faster than a 172 which is burning 10gph. But it’s also nice to fly at 130-135kts and with tailwinds I can usually get closer to 140-150kts GS on 9gph.
The annual is more expensive, let’s say 1000 more per year. The insurance is more expensive, maybe 1000 more per year the first year compared to a fixed gear. But after a couple years I’m now paying something like $1500/year for insurance. And I enjoy flying a complex airplane with retractable gear. I think I’ve developed good habits on flying remembering the prop and gear on final.
After flying her for awhile, and seeing the speed of Cirrus, I guess I wish I had something that would fly closer to 200kts. I guess I wonder if those who have Bonanzas and Mooneys want something faster or not too or if they are happy with their 150kts.
You can probably find a pretty basic Arrow for closer to 80k-100k range. You might have an extra 20k in the bank going this route.
First the 30’ wingspan gives me extra room in my hangar.
Second the fuel consumption is awesome, you can lean it and fly high and slower at 6-7gph, and faster than a 172 which is burning 10gph. But it’s also nice to fly at 130-135kts and with tailwinds I can usually get closer to 140-150kts GS on 9gph.
The annual is more expensive, let’s say 1000 more per year. The insurance is more expensive, maybe 1000 more per year the first year compared to a fixed gear. But after a couple years I’m now paying something like $1500/year for insurance. And I enjoy flying a complex airplane with retractable gear. I think I’ve developed good habits on flying remembering the prop and gear on final.
After flying her for awhile, and seeing the speed of Cirrus, I guess I wish I had something that would fly closer to 200kts. I guess I wonder if those who have Bonanzas and Mooneys want something faster or not too or if they are happy with their 150kts.
You can probably find a pretty basic Arrow for closer to 80k-100k range. You might have an extra 20k in the bank going this route.
MooneyDriver78
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I don’t want to brag (I’m kidding, sure I do
), but not only can a Mooney do 150+ kts, but it will do it on 8.5 gph without tailwinds.But it’s wingspan is 37’, so no extra room and is a tight fit for some hangars.
I don’t desire more speed because I can travel a 1000 miles in 8 hours, yeah it would be nice to go TBM speed but I can’t afford the fuel costs let alone the airplane.
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Ari
I loved my Arrow. It was the 180hp, Hershey bar, original version. I flight planned 130 KTAS on 9-10 gph in the sweet spot altitudes of ~8,000 MSL. I flew it about 400 hours to destinations up to 1,000 miles away before I finished my RV-14 and sold the Arrow to a friend, who has flown it even farther than I did. The Arrow has advantages over the RV-14, including being easier to load a dog into. Its comfortable range for a single leg was around 500 nm. My ownership experience was really good. The main things I ran into were a prop blade seal that required a prop overhaul, a failed alternator, a failed vacuum pump (plus the overhauled replacement died on its test flight, the lesson being to just get a new one), a gear strut seal, one battery, and a total of three tire tubes (of which one leaked promptly after it was installed in a hurry by the night mechanic away from home). I never had a problem related to the retractable gear.
The Arrow is a good plane to help you understand your flying mission. They are generally easy to buy, fly, keep, and maintain. They are fast and comfortable enough for long trips. And after a few years with one, your logbook will make it pretty clear what your next plane should be. The same is true of an Archer, Mooney, 182, and a few other popular types.
The Arrow is a good plane to help you understand your flying mission. They are generally easy to buy, fly, keep, and maintain. They are fast and comfortable enough for long trips. And after a few years with one, your logbook will make it pretty clear what your next plane should be. The same is true of an Archer, Mooney, 182, and a few other popular types.
Hang 4
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Interesting seeing Arrow TAS. I have an Archer 1 (Hershey bar wing). I true out at about 120kts, @ 8GPH when 8K MSL or higher. So not a lot slower. OP mentioned this as a first plane, in today's insurance mkt starting with a retract might have bigger $$ than those who started several years ago.
Domenick
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What's your mission? Impressing co-eds? Hauling a family to grandma's every month? Solo traipsing about the country?
It matters.
kujo806
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Loved my arrow. It was 1975 Hershey bar wing. Solid honest 135knt plane easy to fly and maintain. Like what’s been said, insurance and annual will be 1000 more than an archer, but you build complex time! The arrow is nice and steady during instrument approaches too.
Rcmutz
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Wow! 4-7K for an annual. I’m at $1000 for the basic annual inspection. If any other work then more, but I have never had more than $2100, and that additional was for some cowl metal work.
ArrowFlyer86
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Base annual inspection price at shops near me is about $2500-3000. Pretty hard to get out the door for less than $4k if anything needs repair/replacement.
Tom J
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I just bought an Arrow IV, I have 33 hours in PA28R's, 68 complex total, and my instrument airplane certificate. My insurance with Assured Partners is $1732 for the first year.
As far as the annuals go I have my A&P/IA, so handle my own. That said the shop I work for has a flat rate of 24 hours for an Arrow, and a fixed gear PA28 is 18. About $675 less for fixed gear/fixed prop, in central VA.
As far as the annuals go I have my A&P/IA, so handle my own. That said the shop I work for has a flat rate of 24 hours for an Arrow, and a fixed gear PA28 is 18. About $675 less for fixed gear/fixed prop, in central VA.
MajorTurbulence
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In my area, the basic annual is about $2100. But when you add the discrepancies and other preventatives, practically it is more than double or triple. Not surprisingly, our airplanes are aging and those add ones will tend to be a bigger factor. I considered myself fortunate this past annual only paying $5300 total with the biggest purchase being a new battery. Lately though,$6300-7300 for my PA28-181.
If you are thinking along those lines you should add older Mooneys to your list of possible airplanes. I have a '64 M20E super 21. It is very similar inside to a Cherokee 140 but has manually retractable gear, external top loading baggage door, and a faster wing profile. With the IO-360 it runs LOP well and I cruise 140kts TAS at 8 GPH, but it is rated 150 at 10 ROP. It is a bit of a tight fit, but it's useful load is 943 and with 52 gallons of fuel the payload is 631 lbs. With 40 gallons the payload is 703. That is plenty for 400NM with more than 1 hour reserve.
N1120A
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If I'm the OP, and going to fly anywhere beyond about 150nm trips, I'd seriously consider the Arrow. Fixed gear Cherokees are often more expensive because they are wanted as trainers, and Arrows can get you places noticeably faster and for cheaper per trip. That pays for the little bit extra insurance, which will go down every year. It's a much more stable IFR platform that goes exactly where you point it - super easy to hand fly and most have some sort of autopilot to take the load off as well, even if you don't have a good one like a GFC.
Honestly, fuel costs might be the cheapest thing about a TBM. 57-60 gph for 310 knots or dialed back to 260 knots at like 37 gph is pretty freaking efficient, especially for airline replacement. Remember that contract jet fuel is dirt cheap compared to 100LL. The rest, oh yeah.
120 at 8 in a Cherokee 180 or Archer sounds pretty optimal, or even like the airplane is special. The book on the Archer says 125 at 11, though I've never seen anywhere near that in probably 150 hours between Archers and 180s.
I have seen 130 at 9.9 in an Arrow. Fuel injection and retract makes a difference.
Of course, I do 140 at 10.5 in a Tiger, so...
I don’t want to brag (I’m kidding, sure I do), but not only can a Mooney do 150+ kts, but it will do it on 8.5 gph without tailwinds.
But it’s wingspan is 37’, so no extra room and is a tight fit for some hangars.
I don’t desire more speed because I can travel a 1000 miles in 8 hours, yeah it would be nice to go TBM speed but I can’t afford the fuel costs let alone the airplane.
Honestly, fuel costs might be the cheapest thing about a TBM. 57-60 gph for 310 knots or dialed back to 260 knots at like 37 gph is pretty freaking efficient, especially for airline replacement. Remember that contract jet fuel is dirt cheap compared to 100LL. The rest, oh yeah.
120 at 8 in a Cherokee 180 or Archer sounds pretty optimal, or even like the airplane is special. The book on the Archer says 125 at 11, though I've never seen anywhere near that in probably 150 hours between Archers and 180s.
I have seen 130 at 9.9 in an Arrow. Fuel injection and retract makes a difference.
Of course, I do 140 at 10.5 in a Tiger, so...
Meh, not really. Arrows have about 10kts on an Archer. That’s only going to make a couple minutes difference in flight times door to door. Arrows have higher insurance premiums (fact) than an Archer and the added labor in maintenance is going to outweigh any potential savings.
Partially, the reason Arrows are less expensive is due to insurance by and large.
The Archer is 120ktas and that’s backed up from about 800hrs of flying one. The Arrow is right around 130ktas give or take a couple knots depending on model. Both are going to be right around the same fuel consumption, with the Arrow being a half-gallon or so more with the higher compression pistons on the angle valve 360.