First big change by ForeFlight, LLC

FPK1

FPK1

Line Up and Wait
Joined
Apr 21, 2021
Messages
912
Location
Orange County, CA
Display Name
FPK1
Home Airfield
KFUL
It looks like we have our first big impact of the sale of ForeFlight. Under Boeing, NAFI members received a 33% discount for each level, now is 15% only for the base subscription...

Here is a quote from the email I just got from the new ForeFlight, LLC (Austin, Tx):

"As of today, the SAFE/NAFI discounts now provide 15% off the price of your ForeFlight subscription plan (excluding any add-on products or regions)."
 
FPK1 said:
It looks like we have our first big impact of the sale of ForeFlight. Under Boeing, NAFI members received a 33% discount for each level, now is 15% only for the base subscription...

Here is a quote from the email I just got from the new ForeFlight, LLC (Austin, Tx):

"As of today, the SAFE/NAFI discounts now provide 15% off the price of your ForeFlight subscription plan (excluding any add-on products or regions)."
Click to expand...
Someone doesn't realize where a lot of new pilots get their first exposure to FF.
 
Kenny Phillips said:
Someone doesn't realize where a lot of new pilots get their first exposure to FF.
Click to expand...
Well, also in the email was:

"Our recently-announced ForeFlight CFI Referral Program allows you to earn up to 100% off the price of your subscription plan simply by introducing eligible* students to ForeFlight, with 20% off for just the first referral and an additional 5% off for each subsequent one."

"Note that discounts earned through the CFI Referral Program are mutually exclusive with your SAFE/NAFI discount, so both cannot be applied to the same purchase."

"*Only students who have never had a paid ForeFlight subscription before are eligible for the CFI Referral Program."
 
FPK1 said:
Well, also in the email was:

"Our recently-announced ForeFlight CFI Referral Program allows you to earn up to 100% off the price of your subscription plan simply by introducing eligible* students to ForeFlight, with 20% off for just the first referral and an additional 5% off for each subsequent one."

"Note that discounts earned through the CFI Referral Program are mutually exclusive with your SAFE/NAFI discount, so both cannot be applied to the same purchase."

"*Only students who have never had a paid ForeFlight subscription before are eligible for the CFI Referral Program."
Click to expand...
CFI be upselling now. Avemco should cut them in on renters insurance also. Maybe Sporty’s cut them in too.
 
It may take some time for the change to percolate trough the system. As of 15 minutes ago, the 33% discount was still there. My subscription expires in a few weeks, so I renewed.
 
Last edited:
midlifeflyer said:
It may take some time for the change to percolate trough the system. As of 15 minutes ago, the 33% discount was still there. My subscription expires in a few weeks, so I renewed.
Click to expand...
It shows 15% for me when I go to the renewal:

1765828493333.png

The Jeppesen charts subscription has also gone up. I remember that used to be a $100/year add-on to Foreflight.

This is it for me. I had already been using Garmin Pilot more and more. Bye bye, Foreflight!

- Martin
 
Martin…. How does Garmin Pilot preflight weather information compare to Foreflight? I always thought ForeFlight had a lot better preflight weather information. Wondering what your impressions or anyone else’s impressions are.
 
Another PE win. Turning every flight instructor into Uncle Rico.

1765832963080.png

I wish to use that "E" word, but it's unpopular around here. Maybe Encruddification will prevent pearl clutches despite feeling homeopathic.
 
Sigh. I like Foreflight. I hope *********ication doesn't consume it.
 
I gave up on ‘em a few years ago. I’ve been using iFly, and it does all I need and I like the UI better.
 
My SAFE membership now costs more than the 15% Foreflight discount so I'll cancel the SAFE membership when the time comes.
I imagine whenever I install a GI-275 and/or a Garmin GPS I'll switch to Garmin Pilot.
 
I wonder how long my unpaid FF account (so I can e-sign flight log entries) will last.
 
Not a CFI. I renewed FF last month, wonder if I can downgrade and get a refund. The only reason for the slightly better version is the profile view. Comes in very handy out here in the big hills.
 
murphey said:
Not a CFI. I renewed FF last month, wonder if I can downgrade and get a refund. The only reason for the slightly better version is the profile view. Comes in very handy out here in the big hills.
Click to expand...
ForeFlight doesn’t do refunds. If you downgrade, you will have the balance available as credit for your next renewal.
 
Rcmutz said:
Martin…. How does Garmin Pilot preflight weather information compare to Foreflight? I always thought ForeFlight had a lot better preflight weather information. Wondering what your impressions or anyone else’s impressions are.
Click to expand...
FWIW, I use both apps. They will both do the job, but the flow and the way some functions work are different. One of the biggest differences to me is flight planning. Foreflight is what I think of as a free-text flight planner. Basically a text box which automatically generates a history which can be accessed. This allows for a lot of "what if?" planning. For example, "What if I plan my fuel stop here rather than there. Nah, let's go back to the other one." Pilot, OTOH, emulates the flight planning you will see on a Garmin GTN, so it's a lot more structured.

Then there's Pilot's SmartCharts which are incredible.
 
Rcmutz said:
Martin…. How does Garmin Pilot preflight weather information compare to Foreflight? I always thought ForeFlight had a lot better preflight weather information. Wondering what your impressions or anyone else’s impressions are.
Click to expand...
Preflight briefing was what I mostly used Foreflight for until now (been using Garmin Pilot in flight for a few years). The information is all there in both apps, but the structure of the information and the quick and easy access as you jump around is very nice in Foreflight. Garmin Pilot produces a large Leidos report (PDF file with hyperlinks) which I find harder to navigate. But I haven't really given Garmin Pilot much of a try for preflight briefing, so I guess that will start now.

- Martin
 
Ugh, I knew I shouldn't have renewed. It was obvious *********ication was coming. Guess it's time to try out Garmin Pilot.

I've found the airport and FBO comments really useful in Foreflight since airnav doesn't really retain comments anymore. Does Garmin Pilot have anything similar?
 
midlifeflyer said:
ForeFlight doesn’t do refunds. If you downgrade, you will have the balance available as credit for your next renewal.
Click to expand...
I did a downgrade from the 'middle' plan, back to basic. I requested, and they refunded the credit back to me on PayPal.
 
mark.staggs said:
Ugh, I knew I shouldn't have renewed. It was obvious *********ication was coming. Guess it's time to try out Garmin Pilot.

I've found the airport and FBO comments really useful in Foreflight since airnav doesn't really retain comments anymore. Does Garmin Pilot have anything similar?
Click to expand...

If you switch to iFly, they’ll comp you the remainder of your FF subscription.
 
Private equity can be taught a lesson in many cases - let as many subscriptions for foreflight lapse. Mine already has.
 
I'm afraid I'm switching to GP also. Just got my FF renewal notice and the price is up another $10 this year. So FF is now $50/year more expensive than GP. And Smart Charts is just killer. FF's Dynamic Procedures pales in comparison. If the folks at FF had any brains they would give it away to CFI's for free. Where do they think their new customers come from? Monkey see, monkey do.

C.
 
FPK1 said:
It looks like we have our first big impact of the sale of ForeFlight. Under Boeing, NAFI members received a 33% discount for each level, now is 15% only for the base subscription...
Click to expand...
That's a big change? Hardly.

Honestly, I'm surprised this didn't happen LONG ago. The NAFI/SAFE discount has been bigger than the cost of a NAFI/SAFE membership for a long time. I suspect that the PE folks looked at some analytics, determined that there were an awful lot of people getting the NAFI/SAFE discount yet had zero hours of Dual Given logged, and merely decided to stop buying people free NAFI/SAFE memberships because that's what they were doing...

baboss said:
My SAFE membership now costs more than the 15% Foreflight discount so I'll cancel the SAFE membership when the time comes.
Click to expand...
...As you can see here. I expect the real losers with this change will be NAFI and SAFE, who will have fewer members.

baboss said:
I imagine whenever I install a GI-275 and/or a Garmin GPS I'll switch to Garmin Pilot.
Click to expand...
I installed a GTN 750 in 2017 and I've always gotten the "free upgrade" for Garmin Pilot in the OnePak, but while I've tried to use Garmin Pilot, I just can't. I don't find it to be nearly as intuitive as ForeFlight, and it takes too much work to make it do what I want it to do. That includes Database Concierge, which I use regularly and is the main reason I have Garmin Pilot at all. Paying for the basic GP subscription to get that after I've already given Garmin a lot of money for the OnePak and not using anything else in GP really grinds my gears, too.

mark.staggs said:
Ugh, I knew I shouldn't have renewed. It was obvious *********ication was coming. Guess it's time to try out Garmin Pilot.
Click to expand...
Oh please. Taking away a discount that made no sense is not "*********ication." If they make the product significantly worse AND raise prices significantly, that's *********ication.

ForeFlight remains one of the biggest bargains in aviation.

camorton said:
If the folks at FF had any brains they would give it away to CFI's for free. Where do they think their new customers come from? Monkey see, monkey do.
Click to expand...
They do. All you have to do to get that is to refer enough new students. And you get 20% off for the first referral.

Oh, you're* not an active CFI and have no students to refer? Then why should you get a discount? (*not you specifically, @camorton)
 
flyingcheesehead said:
...As you can see here. I expect the real losers with this change will be NAFI and SAFE, who will have fewer members.
Click to expand...
I think this is really the reason they changed the program. On any site I've been to if someone talks about getting FF, the next post is to join NAFI to get the discount. Didn't matter if the person was a CFI or a student. Just said to join and get the discount. My guess is one/some of the new owners had also seen this or someone already in FF had a new door to knock on to voice their opinion.

If NAFI/SAFE were smart, they'd try and convince FF they've seen the light and they will monitor who gets the discount. It would still be in FF's best interest to keep the CFI(I)s promoting FF. Basically what Apple did when they gave grade school Macintosh computers decades ago.
 
M20K said:
I think this is really the reason they changed the program. On any site I've been to if someone talks about getting FF, the next post is to join NAFI to get the discount. Didn't matter if the person was a CFI or a student. Just said to join and get the discount. My guess is one/some of the new owners had also seen this or someone already in FF had a new door to knock on to voice their opinion.
Click to expand...
Exactly!!!

M20K said:
If NAFI/SAFE were smart, they'd try and convince FF they've seen the light and they will monitor who gets the discount. It would still be in FF's best interest to keep the CFI(I)s promoting FF. Basically what Apple did when they gave grade school Macintosh computers decades ago.
Click to expand...
Definitely. And I can see there being some advantage to ForeFlight in giving higher referral bonuses to NAFI/SAFE members, but a discount higher than the membership fee just doesn't make sense at all.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Oh please. Taking away a discount that made no sense is not "*********ication." If they make the product significantly worse AND raise prices significantly, that's *********ication.

ForeFlight remains one of the biggest bargains in aviation.
Click to expand...
Ok, fair, I'll take that verbal eyeroll at my hyperbole. :) I looked back, and it's about a 5% annualized increase over the last 10 years in their base price. That's not great, but a lot better than some products in the same time.

I don't disagree that FF is still small taters compared to other aviation things. I just fear this is one of the first steps toward squeezing out "value".
 
camorton said:
I'm afraid I'm switching to GP also. Just got my FF renewal notice and the price is up another $10 this year. So FF is now $50/year more expensive than GP. And Smart Charts is just killer. FF's Dynamic Procedures pales in comparison. If the folks at FF had any brains they would give it away to CFI's for free. Where do they think their new customers come from? Monkey see, monkey do.

C.
Click to expand...
I think one of the reasons for dropping the general discount is exactly the opposite. Even leaving out the legions of instructors who don't train primary students at all, I suspect the numbers would show that CFIs have less influence over EFB choice than they may have in the past. People who are even just thinking of starting out are out there watching YouTube videos and seeing what those pilots use. They are also appearing in Facebook groups asking questions about which EFB is "best." And even if they they still have "monkey see monkey do" influence, the young instructor corps which probably predominates in that segment of the market are either already using Foreflight (market share) or are exactly the ones who will benefit from the new discount program.

And ultimately, as a user subscriber to both FF and GP, IMO, FF is the better product for a student pilot if for no reason other than the difference in flight planning methodology I mentioned earlier. I agree with you that SmartCharts are incredible but great SID, STAR, and IAP rendering is not exactly a reason for a student pilot subscription.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
ForeFlight remains one of the biggest bargains in aviation.
Click to expand...
I am in total agreement. I would not want to have to maintain subscriptions to sectionals, store them in my flight bag, unfold them and use them in flight at an annual cost not far off from FF basic. Not to mention the safety factor of having pertinent information quickly accessible from multiple sources, whether that be an iPhone or iPad, and easily pushing flight plans to my panel. I won't get into the many other valuable utilities such as very easy flight filing (ok, I got in to it a little ;)). I don't think the price is unreasonable for the safety and value provided.
 
robin ardoin said:
I am in total agreement. I would not want to have to maintain subscriptions to sectionals, store them in my flight bag, unfold them and use them in flight at an annual cost not far off from FF basic. Not to mention the safety factor of having pertinent information quickly accessible from multiple sources, whether that be an iPhone or iPad, and easily pushing flight plans to my panel. I won't get into the many other valuable utilities such as very easy flight filing (ok, I got in to it a little ;)). I don't think the price is unreasonable for the safety and value provided.
Click to expand...
Shortly before EFBs became a thing, I did a west coast trip with paper charts.

They cost $225, filled two grocery bags, and ate up about 20 pounds of useful load. They also expired in a couple weeks or a couple months, so they only got used once. Probably had a bigger carbon footprint from the trees that got killed than the engine emissions!

You know what they didn't do? Put all those charts on an easy to use compact device, show me where precipitation was, pull up weather at airports out of radio range (>40-50nm), show me traffic, file my flight plan, do my performance calculations, obtain my briefing, email the destination FBOs, tell me fuel prices, help me do all of the other little flight planning tasks, warn me about terrain, automatically pull up a taxi diagram on landing, warn me I was about to enter a runway, help me brief the approach, keep track of where I flew, grade my maneuvers and landing, or fill out my logbook... All things that I can do in ForeFlight now.

The bad old days, they were terrible - And ForeFlight would be a bargain at twice the price.
 
FF and others started like many apps do, simply organize and digitize free public accessable data like wx, notams, charts, etc. much like apps as AccuWeather that access free public paid wx data. ...btw, AccuWeather was lobbying to have such data not directly available to public.

with FF and Garmin current price points I expect to see some of the more fringe apps develop further to compete for some of their share. i wouldn't be surprised if some worked a deal with CFI association for deeper discount to capture share by point of influence strategy to get new users hooked early.

GA has too many monopolies as it is, any competion is good and needed.
 
My FF is up for renewal and as many have noted prices are up this year. I am debating moving to GP but does it work as well with stratus? I’ve heard mixed things about GP and stratus
 
theplanesalon said:
Private equity can be taught a lesson in many cases - let as many subscriptions for foreflight lapse. Mine already has.
Click to expand...
True words... FlyQ was sold and the first thing they did was cancel all lifetime subs. I'm sure that the number of lifetime subs was so small they never cared about any blowback.

Never trust a business.

FF has some good options, but you are also paying for the top tier of EFB for that conveyance. I mean its free to call 1-800-WX-Brief but hey, lets pay FF a chunk of money so you can try to figgure it out on your fruit-tablet.
 
I have used both apps quite a bit.

While running Garmin Pilot only, I miss the FBO comments on Foreflight.

Garmin Pilot runs fine with Stratus. The only caveat is that if you lose the connection, however briefly, you lose the ability to see your flight bread crumbs contiguously (ie there will be a break in your green line). That may be important to you if you want to maintain that visual aspect of your app logbook. In contrast, if needed, ForeFlight lets one fall back to downloading the track log from the Stratus memory storage after you’ve landed.

Regarding weather planning, Garmin Pilot is just as good - just a different workflow. However, in my opinion, the best overall tool in terms of ease of use and readability is the Map/Plan and Brief section of 1800wxbrief.com. I love the visual checklist style approach (see screenshot showing where to find this feature). However, the IFR route options are so poor that this aspect of the Leidos product is essentially unusable and is the main reason I do not default to this product in my preflight workflow.

So, all of these products have some gotcha. In terms of flight planning and in-flight usage, Garmin Pilot does everything Foreflight does at least as well.
 

Attachments

  • IMG_9807.jpeg
    IMG_9807.jpeg
    331.1 KB · Views: 15
For VFR flying the only value I see in EFBs is the moving map. No more folded up sectionals is a major advancement.

The downside of EFBs is that they have no more insight into the weather or forecasting than the average PPL... which is little to none.

I was planning an AM flight from Downtown Knoxville airport (DKX) and there is no ASOS/AWAS... you relied on Tyson.... quite a few miles away. I could see an overcast but couldn't figure the bases (the standard lapse rate trick wouldn't work). Weather briefer was limited as all they had was TYS weather, so an EFB (FF or others) would not give any more insight. That is thier greatest weakness. When I was talking to a briefer that morning he offered some insight regarding the direction of flight, winds and historical trends (aka he knew the area) that they could never program into an EFB and would take me years to learn.

IFR certifiacted pilots usually have much better insight into weather... and briefers also have local knowledge... EFBs rely on the person holding the fruit-pad to read those forcasts. They all show the same charts from NOAA. They all show the same TAFF/ASOS/AWAS data.
 
pfarber said:
IFR certifiacted pilots usually have much better insight into weather..
Click to expand...

iu
 
pfarber said:
For VFR flying the only value I see in EFBs is the moving map. No more folded up sectionals is a major advancement.

The downside of EFBs is that they have no more insight into the weather or forecasting than the average PPL... which is little to none.

I was planning an AM flight from Downtown Knoxville airport (DKX) and there is no ASOS/AWAS... you relied on Tyson.... quite a few miles away. I could see an overcast but couldn't figure the bases (the standard lapse rate trick wouldn't work). Weather briefer was limited as all they had was TYS weather, so an EFB (FF or others) would not give any more insight. That is thier greatest weakness. When I was talking to a briefer that morning he offered some insight regarding the direction of flight, winds and historical trends (aka he knew the area) that they could never program into an EFB and would take me years to learn.

IFR certifiacted pilots usually have much better insight into weather... and briefers also have local knowledge... EFBs rely on the person holding the fruit-pad to read those forcasts. They all show the same charts from NOAA. They all show the same TAFF/ASOS/AWAS data.
Click to expand...
I'm an Instrument rated pilot who frequently flies VFR. Are you saying EFB weather is useful to me or not?

I'm not quite sure what your point is, but having flown for 16 years prior to EFBs and 16 years following my first iPad EFB (and even longer if you count my Palm Pilot), the weather depictions available from EFBs are significantly more useful than the other options out there. I also hate to break it to you but Weather Briefers (AK excluded) haven't had local knowledge for two decades now. Some are really good, and might have local knowledge if you happen to be near Ashburn VA, but otherwise not so much.
 
pfarber said:
The downside of EFBs is that they have no more insight into the weather or forecasting than the average PPL... which is little to none.
Click to expand...
They're a good place to get all the information in one place, and at least in ForeFlight there's a separate briefing as well.

pfarber said:
I was planning an AM flight from Downtown Knoxville airport (DKX) and there is no ASOS/AWAS... you relied on Tyson.... quite a few miles away. I could see an overcast but couldn't figure the bases (the standard lapse rate trick wouldn't work). Weather briefer was limited as all they had was TYS weather, so an EFB (FF or others) would not give any more insight. That is thier greatest weakness. When I was talking to a briefer that morning he offered some insight regarding the direction of flight, winds and historical trends (aka he knew the area) that they could never program into an EFB and would take me years to learn.
Click to expand...
Sadly, most of that institutional knowledge went away 20 years ago when the FAA decided to shut down domestic AFSS.

pfarber said:
IFR certifiacted pilots usually have much better insight into weather... and briefers also have local knowledge... EFBs rely on the person holding the fruit-pad to read those forcasts. They all show the same charts from NOAA. They all show the same TAFF/ASOS/AWAS data.
Click to expand...
And again, the briefers don't have the local knowledge any more. The kid getting paid minimum wage in the call center at LockMart sure as heck doesn't know the weather any better than I do, and they demonstrated that in the period between when AFSS shut down and EFBs became a thing. Briefings at that point were utter garbage, which is why most of us didn't bother any more once we got an EFB.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top