Finding a plane to learn in

jnoetz said:
Purely out of unfamiliarity....
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Always remember, horsepower is your friend, especially around the mountains, and horsepower falls off with altitude.

Every plane purchase has unrecoverable costs in travel and inspections, not to mention unrecoverable investment in long term payout repairs. The only thing you really get any value back on a resale is an engine overhaul. Everything else you spend will just be what makes buyers choose one plane over another expecting them to all be priced equal. In this market buying a 'training plane' then upgrading to a 'family plane' next year is not that hot of a financial prospect, you will waste a minimum of $5000, and not difficult to hit $10,000 or more, doing so. So chose your first plane wisely. Now a 150/152 has a secondary option and that is keep it and rent it out. They can make money in rental because they are all around about as cheap as it comes.

Just understand that where you are, a 182 or other 225+hp plane is your minimum "family plane" you're going to want. Being able to climb with a load is a direct function of excess horsepower, and excess horsepower diminishes with altitude. What 180hp will lift at a sea level airport with no significant terrain is not a viable load for it from a 5000' airport in a bowl with tall terrain to cross. You would want at least 225hp to get the same performance.
 
jnoetz said:
Purely out of unfamiliarity....
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Grummans are great aircraft, the sliding canopy makes boarding quite easy.

You should consider buying a plane for your 80-90% of the time missions and find a rental for that occasional mission.

I have a car that I use daily, maybe once or twice a year I need a full size pickup, thus I have a car and just rent a pickup once or twice a year, saves money, suits my mission better, same deal with aircraft.
 
James331 said:
Grummans are great aircraft, the sliding canopy makes boarding quite easy.

You should consider buying a plane for your 80-90% of the time missions and find a rental for that occasional mission.

I have a car that I use daily, maybe once or twice a year I need a full size pickup, thus I have a car and just rent a pickup once or twice a year, saves money, suits my mission better, same deal with aircraft.
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Uhhh... Don't you have Cessna 185 on amphib floats?:confused::lol:
 
Well, heard back from my CFI ... he said he wouldn't touch that 150 if it was him. I'll be contacting the flight club with the 172M, hopefully that will work out reasonably well.

He did say that he'd be open to partnering in his Comanche after my initial training is done ... Another wrinkle in the picture!
 
Henning said:
Uhhh... Don't you have Cessna 185 on amphib floats?:confused::lol:
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I knew that was going to come up lol

Just because I don't follow my own advise doesn't mean it's not good :D
 
jnoetz said:
I saw that one too, and was going to ask my CFI about it. I looked up the registration number and it says it expired a couple months ago. Bad sign?

Where are you out of?
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7,000 TT and 1900SMOH if it's free you cant afford it, run away.
 
I flew a 152 for about 30 hours of my nearly 250 hours. They are cheap for a reason-- they can't do much. I won't fly in them given a choice and I won't buy one that's for sure. I'd rather save the 20,000 for the 152 and put it into the next step type plane( 172, PA28, Grumman Tiger AA5, Warrior, Sundowner).

If I had a bit more money I'd be all over the Grumman Tiger AA5. Crushing at 125+ knots on 8 gallons an hour sounds like a dream for this 172 renter!
 
jspilot said:
I flew a 152 for about 30 hours of my nearly 250 hours. They are cheap for a reason-- they can't do much. I won't fly in them given a choice and I won't buy one that's for sure. I'd rather save the 20,000 for the 152 and put it into the next step type plane( 172, PA28, Grumman Tiger AA5, Warrior, Sundowner).

If I had a bit more money I'd be all over the Grumman Tiger AA5. Crushing at 125+ knots on 8 gallons an hour sounds like a dream for this 172 renter!
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Why stop there? Bonanza will cruise you at 165 and is the easiest SE plane out there to fly and land.
 
Henning said:
Uhhh... Don't you have Cessna 185 on amphib floats?:confused::lol:
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I might only be able to do it a few days per year, but if I could fly out to the gulfstream, spot a weed line from the air, land and fill a cooler with mahi, then take off for home...
 
dell30rb said:
I might only be able to do it a few days per year, but if I could fly out to the gulfstream, spot a weed line from the air, land and fill a cooler with mahi, then take off for home...
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On a calm day you could do it nicely.
 
Could external load a canoe with a trolling motor.
 
Well, Well this thread sure got off track as soon as Henning got in.
 
There's a solution to that, it's right at your finger-tips.
 
Henning said:
I would more think to put the trolling motor on the plane.
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Casting off can be a little bit of a pain, also no where easy to sit outside of the cabin, which in many planes makes fishing a little awkward.

So far, at least with the 185, I've came to the concluding of getting a cheapie inflatable (quasi pool toy) boat and just working out of that, still not comfy with having a huge canoe strapped on the side of my plane.
 
Henning said:
Why stop there? Bonanza will cruise you at 165 and is the easiest SE plane out there to fly and land.
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Yeah I'd love a bonanza too but I'm more talking about planes that can realistically be had for around 30,000. I'd be hard pressed to find a Bo for that.
 
jspilot said:
Yeah I'd love a bonanza too but I'm more talking about planes that can realistically be had for around 30,000. I'd be hard pressed to find a Bo for that.
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You're hard pressed to find anything good past 152 or Tomahawk for that, maybe a PA-22.
 
jspilot said:
Yeah I'd love a bonanza too but I'm more talking about planes that can realistically be had for around 30,000. I'd be hard pressed to find a Bo for that.
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There's Bos for sale that are around $30k. They are the older models with legacy engines. From 1957 and before. Most of those have fine flying qualities but require an A&P who is familiar with maintaining them. Prolly not a good candidate for a new pilot, although they are easy enough to fly.

an example: http://www.barnstormers.com/classified_1040387_1953+Beech+Bonanza+D35.html
 
Henning said:
Sure, it has no real capability either. Plus you have no idea what condition it's in. I've looked at a couple dozen of these low cost wonders over the last couple of years for people, and rarely do they qualify as "Good".
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Do you remember the OP? He is looking for a trainer. This airplane fits that mission through primary and instrument. Of course you don't know the true condition until it is inspected, but it is very likely "good" if not better than good. It has plenty of capability! I know you won't say you're wrong, but perhaps you misunderstood?


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mikeinbama said:
Do you remember the OP? He is looking for a trainer. This airplane fits that mission through primary and instrument. Of course you don't know the true condition until it is inspected, but it is very likely "good" if not better than good. It has plenty of capability! I know you won't say you're wrong, but perhaps you misunderstood?


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He is also looking for something he can get out of in a year or so and get a family plane. Better to buy a $15k 150/152 for that than a $30k PA-28-140.
 
I'd just buy the family plane first assuming you are going to 1) stick with flying and 2) get said family plane anyway.

Go ahead and spend 60k and get an Archer/Tiger or a Bonanza if that's what you'll need. You can train in those planes without much fuss. You'll have a few more hours learning in a complex but those are hours you'll have to get sooner or later anyway.
 
Bonchie said:
I'd just buy the family plane first assuming you are going to 1) stick with flying and 2) get said family plane anyway.

Go ahead and spend 60k and get an Archer/Tiger or a Bonanza if that's what you'll need. You can train in those planes without much fuss. You'll have a few more hours learning in a complex but those are hours you'll have to get sooner or later anyway.
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Too bad the OP didn't post a month ago. I could have gotten him a Cherokee 6 -300 IFR equipped, Part 135 maintained for 32k.

hell of and aircraft to learn in, but he'd be in a real family/ifr aircraft.

but it's gone now.
 
Bonchie said:
I'd just buy the family plane first assuming you are going to 1) stick with flying and 2) get said family plane anyway.

Go ahead and spend 60k and get an Archer/Tiger or a Bonanza if that's what you'll need. You can train in those planes without much fuss. You'll have a few more hours learning in a complex but those are hours you'll have to get sooner or later anyway.
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In his area of hot /high DAs, mountains, short strips, and cold weather starts on the Lycomings, the Grumman would be the last aircraft I'd suggest.
 
Henning said:
This is in his budget, much better deal than some Cherokee 140 for him.
http://www.trade-a-plane.com/detail...+Piston/1963/Cessna/182F+Skylane/2076274.html
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add another 10K for radios, for the nave portion of the practical.
But after the PPL is obtained that is a screaming deal.
I'd just move the 97 and transponder down and make room for a hand held GPS docking station.
But and that's a BIG BUT, he wants a real IFR aircraft to cross the Cascades in the winter.
To me, that is an aircraft way out of his budget. (fully deiced & pressurized)
 
Tom, now that we are a family of 4 I'm looking for a 182, 210 or a Cherokee 6. Can ya ping me if you see any more in the area?
 
Tom-D said:
add another 10K for radios, for the nave portion of the practical.
But after the PPL is obtained that is a screaming deal.
I'd just move the 97 and transponder down and make room for a hand held GPS docking station.
But and that's a BIG BUT, he wants a real IFR aircraft to cross the Cascades in the winter.
To me, that is an aircraft way out of his budget. (fully deiced & pressurized)
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Yeah, he doesn't get across the Cascades IFR in the winter for under $80k or so in a Seneca II or higher. $130 gets you a 421B, pressure and a potty. If that is the mission, that's the minimum plane and budget. However if he is willing to stay VFR or out of the ice, that 182 is a damn good deal if it's a clean airframe. I'd put a 400w in it with a FlightStream 210.
 
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Well, I talked to the guy that runs the flying club my CFI referred me to. They have an IFR equipped 172M and a Champ.

After a reasonable buy-in amount (and monthly dues), they're fine with doing training in the 172M, and they are charging between $50 and $55/hr wet.

Seems like a good place to start to me.
 
jnoetz said:
Well, I talked to the guy that runs the flying club my CFI referred me to. They have an IFR equipped 172M and a Champ.

After a reasonable buy-in amount (and monthly dues), they're fine with doing training in the 172M, and they are charging between $50 and $55/hr wet.

Seems like a good place to start to me.
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Seems like a great place to start. Do you start your training in the Champ then? How much is it? Start there, it'll make your future in GA much easier. Fly it up to solo, then start doing your Cross Country phase in the 172.
 
Henning said:
For very basic IFR, a 150/152/172/PA-28 can be bought for that. If you can up the budget to $40k you can add some older 182s, Bonanzas, and Mooneys, but they will likely have antique panels in them, not just old.
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When I was shopping for airplanes 6 months ago all the 172s and PA-28s I saw that weren't VERY questionable were $40k+ They are the most popular 4 seat trainers and as such hold their value well.

For the OP's situation it sounds like it'd be reasonable to buy a fairly nice 150/152, do all his training then sell it for what he paid for it and move up to the plane that will fill his needs post-training.
 
What I ran into is my required plane is a 182 or a 206. The problem is low hours look at insurance costs. Low time = way to high of insurance costs. So we are buying a 172 as our first plane. About $50k and about $1k insurance makes it a great trainer until instrument rating and reach that magical 250 hours. Then we can afford the insurance for a 206 or a 182. Awareness I was getting $6-7k quotes for insurance on the 206 and due to 6 seats and no instrument rating.


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q5kacom said:
What I ran into is my required plane is a 182 or a 206. The problem is low hours look at insurance costs. Low time = way to high of insurance costs. So we are buying a 172 as our first plane. About $50k and about $1k insurance makes it a great trainer until instrument rating and reach that magical 250 hours. Then we can afford the insurance for a 206 or a 182. Awareness I was getting $6-7k quotes for insurance on the 206 and due to 6 seats and no instrument rating.


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The insurance hit is a 1 year/100 hour hit regardless what you get into. After 100 hrs in any type airframe 4-6 seater will be around 1.5% the insured value. If you train in a Bonanza from the beginning and get your PP & IR in it, the difference in 1st year insurance compared to having 100 hrs and an IR in a 172 will be much smaller than the cost of trading up airplanes. More importantly though, you are familiar and well trained in the plane you're going to fly your family around in.

If the real mission to to traverse the Cascades year round, train in and rent the club 172 and fly it until you can afford a Seneca II. That's the minimum plane with that capability.
 
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