Finding a plane to learn in

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jnoetz

Filing Flight Plan
Joined
Sep 13, 2011
Messages
19
Location
Wright County, MO
Display Name
Display name:
Jeremy
I'm starting flight training this fall after putting it off for about twenty years.

My issue right now is that there's not a whole lot of options around here for renting aircraft. I have a great CFI lined up, but there's no FBO in my fairly rural corner of NE Washington State that rents.

The two airports that are closest to me apparently have a C-150 at one and a flying club at the other that may or may not let their C-172 be used for training. CFI says that the first airport has a C-172 too, but while it's airworthy he won't do training in it until the owner changes some (unspecified) things.

The closest airport that HAS an FBO with rentals is about 45 minutes drive for me, and over an hour for my CFI. They have a couple of Piper trainers available.

Any suggestions on best-bets here?
 
That sucks. Maybe you and your CFI can partner in a C150/152 and he can buy you out eventually?
 
Pick the cheapest one that is maintained IAW the FARs.

Doesn't have to be pretty, just airworthy.
 
jnoetz said:
I'm starting flight training this fall after putting it off for about twenty years.

My issue right now is that there's not a whole lot of options around here for renting aircraft. I have a great CFI lined up, but there's no FBO in my fairly rural corner of NE Washington State that rents.

The two airports that are closest to me apparently have a C-150 at one and a flying club at the other that may or may not let their C-172 be used for training. CFI says that the first airport has a C-172 too, but while it's airworthy he won't do training in it until the owner changes some (unspecified) things.

The closest airport that HAS an FBO with rentals is about 45 minutes drive for me, and over an hour for my CFI. They have a couple of Piper trainers available.

Any suggestions on best-bets here?
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Buy your own aircraft.
What is your nearest airport?

I would suggest a C-172 early prior to 67.

http://spokane.craigslist.org/rvs/5088768875.html
 
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I live smack dab inbetween Colville (63S) and Chewelah (1S9) ... Deer Park (DEW) is the airport that has the Piper rentals.

I've thought about buying, but a C-172 or Cherokee won't fit the bill for me long term ... I will need a true 4 seater or even a 6 long term because I have five kids. While I don't expect to ever fly with all of them (they are starting to graduate from HS and move out...) my younger kids will be around for quite a while yet...
 
jnoetz said:
I live smack dab inbetween Colville (63S) and Chewelah (1S9) ... Deer Park (DEW) is the airport that has the Piper rentals.

I've thought about buying, but a C-172 or Cherokee won't fit the bill for me long term ... I will need a true 4 seater or even a 6 long term because I have five kids. While I don't expect to ever fly with all of them (they are starting to graduate from HS and move out...) my younger kids will be around for quite a while yet...
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what's your budget for a true 4 seater?

now your talking about a 182, or larger.

It is not inconceivable to learn in a 210, but it will take lots more training. = time.

This aircraft will fill your needs long term. It is in great condition, I once was going to buy it. the 210 is a hand full of aircraft, and will required lots of training.

http://www.trade-a-plane.com/detail/1761386.html
 
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182? Meh, get a C170 or if you have the money a C180, look at Maules and Stinsons too.
 
I haven't gotten as far as a budget for a long term aircraft, partially because I don't really want to train in a bigger plane, but also because I'm not 100% sure what my usage pattern will be, and I want to make sure when I do buy, I'm buying the right plane.

My current thinking is that aside from <100nm jaunts around for fun, most of the usage will be my wife and I, sometimes with another couple, going places (Puget Sound, Victoria/Vancouver, Oregon Coast, etc) for a day or weekend.

Probably flying to Everett every couple months to pick up mother in law or bring kids to visit Grandma.

Wife has already expressed interest in longer family trips though, including back to Wisconsin where her Dad lives (that's a long haul).

Bottom line, I don't really have a good handle on what I'm going to be doing long term, so hate to make an investment that would be harder to get out of.
 
jnoetz said:
I live smack dab inbetween Colville (63S) and Chewelah (1S9) ... Deer Park (DEW) is the airport that has the Piper rentals.

I've thought about buying, but a C-172 or Cherokee won't fit the bill for me long term ... I will need a true 4 seater or even a 6 long term because I have five kids. While I don't expect to ever fly with all of them (they are starting to graduate from HS and move out...) my younger kids will be around for quite a while yet...
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You can learn in a 182 or Bonanza, no worries. Bonanza is easier to land and harder to break than a 172.
 
I would put together 25k and buy a nice, very simple, minimally IFR (yes IFR) equipped airplane and I would fly it the heck out of it until I had my instrument rating.
That is what I would have done if I knew then what I know now.

If you are serious about putting some serious hours up, buying something simple but flyable through your instrument rating will keep you below your rental costs and allow you to take whatever trips you need to in order to figure out what kind of plane your mission really entails.
 
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Thing to know about where he lives, it gets hotter then hell in the summer on the dry side, and very cold in the winter.
Bothe the airports near him are not all that big. Colville is the bigger of the two.

The early version 210 strutted is only a retracting gear 182 it is not all that much to cope with.

His flights will be for the most part right over the same area we just had a non IFR pilot get himself and his wife killed.
The 210 I linked is perfect for these operations.

Just remember there isn't 10 days between late November and early May that you will cross the Cascades under MEA of 14k on a IFR flight plan.
 
TheGolfPilot said:
I would put together 25k and buy a nice, very simple, minimally IFR (yes IFR) equipped airplane and I would fly it the heck out of it until I had my instrument rating.
That is what I would have done if I knew then what I know now.

If you are serious about putting some serious hours up, buying something simple but flyable through your instrument rating will keep you below your rental costs and allow you to take whatever trips you need to in order to figure out what kind of plane your mission really entails.
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I plan to roll straight into my IFR training. What sort of aircraft fits that bill in the 25k range?
 
jnoetz said:
I plan to roll straight into my IFR training. What sort of aircraft fits that bill in the 25k range?
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For very basic IFR, a 150/152/172/PA-28 can be bought for that. If you can up the budget to $40k you can add some older 182s, Bonanzas, and Mooneys, but they will likely have antique panels in them, not just old.
 
Tom-D said:
Thing to know about where he lives, it gets hotter then hell in the summer on the dry side, and very cold in the winter.
Bothe the airports near him are not all that big. Colville is the bigger of the two.

The early version 210 strutted is only a retracting gear 182 it is not all that much to cope with.

His flights will be for the most part right over the same area we just had a non IFR pilot get himself and his wife killed.
The 210 I linked is perfect for these operations.

Just remember there isn't 10 days between late November and early May that you will cross the Cascades under MEA of 14k on a IFR flight plan.
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Yup, the weather here can get pretty interesting. It cools off pretty good at night, but we've had a ton of 100+ degree days this year...

Lots of mountains and hills here, 4-5k ft high, and I'm smack dab between a couple of mountain ranges. Gotta have enough power to get up above them on those hot days.
 
jnoetz said:
Yup, the weather here can get pretty interesting. It cools off pretty good at night, but we've had a ton of 100+ degree days this year...

Lots of mountains and hills here, 4-5k ft high, and I'm smack dab between a couple of mountain ranges. Gotta have enough power to get up above them on those hot days.
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You don't want less than 230 hp and will be happier with 260 if you have a family sized load to carry.
 
Tom-D said:
Yeah Right, what ever, there are some that will do anything.
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I've given tons of tailwheel training to 0 time guys, it's not witchcraft or some fire breathing dragon if you learn properly from the start.

Out of all the tailwheel guys I've trained, most now working professional in t/w aircraft, not one has ground looped a plane or any other nonsense, as someone who learned how to fly in a tailwheel, I really don't get the fear some folks have for them.

Quite a few advantages and really no disadvantages when it comes to C170,180etc vs their trike brethren.

To each their own.
 
jnoetz said:
I plan to roll straight into my IFR training. What sort of aircraft fits that bill in the 25k range?
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Look at Stinsons and Piper Pacers.

Good haulers, more or less at your budget, great bang for the buck.
 
James331 said:
, as someone who learned how to fly in a tailwheel, I really don't get the fear some folks have for them.
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I learned in a J-3 in 1954, I am not scared of them either, But I would not advise a new student to learn in a high horse power taildragger these days.
 
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jnoetz said:
I saw that one too, and was going to ask my CFI about it. I looked up the registration number and it says it expired a couple months ago. Bad sign?

Where are you out of?
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Not a bad sign, having 1900hrs on the engine, 7000hrs on the airframe and "call for price" on the other hand :no:
 
jnoetz said:
I plan to roll straight into my IFR training. What sort of aircraft fits that bill in the 25k range?
Click to expand...

A piper PA28 is probably the best bang for the buck. A 172 would do the trick too. As others were saying, where you live has some geographical quirks that keep either of those planes from being serious IFR machines. There will be a lot of days with these "trainers" where mountains, density altitude and other types of weather will keep you on the ground or limited to passenger load. I learned to fly in New Mexico and my instrument training was VERY limited in a 172. Most MEAs were well above the planes capabilities in the summer months and even some approaches were off limits. They are great trainers though, you'll learn far more about how a plane's performance changes in different weather than you would in a turbo charged 182 or something of the sort.
 
There was a sweet tri pacer for sale on here not that long ago, anyone have the link?
 
jnoetz said:
yeah, those times caught my eye too....
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The 7000 TT really isn't that bad, twice that is where I start looking hard at them. The 1900 SMOH may or may not be accounted for in the asking price. The lack of price isn't a good portend though. If the price is <$12k, it may not be a bad deal.
 
jnoetz said:
I saw that one too, and was going to ask my CFI about it. I looked up the registration number and it says it expired a couple months ago. Bad sign?

Where are you out of?
Click to expand...

Not necessarily a bad sign, what you want to know is when it last was flown, how much, when it was last in annual, TTAF, TSMO, does it have decent radios, a transponder etc. then take Tom up on his offer to come do a prebuy inspection. Buy it and fly the hell out of it for two years. Build lots of hours get your IR, THEN buy you a bigger plane. If you need the true four seats before then, there planes to rent. You will fly alone or two up most of the time if you are like most of us. Good luck!
 
Henning said:
The 7000 TT really isn't that bad, twice that is where I start looking hard at them. The 1900 SMOH may or may not be accounted for in the asking price. The lack of price isn't a good portend though. If the price is <$12k, it may not be a bad deal.
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I kinda agree with this, if it's cheap enough and you could get 200 hours out of it, you could probably get most of your money back in two years, I would think.
 
My advice would be to get a handle on your budget first. I'd also deal with what's right in front of you rather than a basketful if 'what ifs' down the road a good distance. What I mean is, look to a lower cost, simple plane for training, and worry less about a 6-seater for potential family trips.

I do like the idea of buying a plane to train in.
 
jnoetz said:
I saw that one too, and was going to ask my CFI about it. I looked up the registration number and it says it expired a couple months ago. Bad sign?

Where are you out of?
Click to expand...

As other's have stated, It is a matter of price with that one.

I live in Oak Harbor on the wet side.
 
I love to weigh in on the 'which plane' threads. Not sure why...

Anyway, the two schools of thought are buy a trainer, get your ticket and then IFR, then move up to the real plane. The other school is buy what you want to fly, and learn in that. Each plan has plus and minus.

Since you have a large family, you think you will be flying with all seats full a lot. This is typically not the case. I thought 80% of my flights would be with the full family present, and all seats full. Reality is that add up the hours on the plane and divide by the time I had more than 2 inside and it's only about 7% of the time. YMMV, but realize that if you think the whole fam will be going along most of the time, that is not the case. Look at your car usage as an example. Not a perfect fit, but I'm guessing 95% of your driving hours(non-commute) are still solo.

So, I guess I would look at the trainer route. Definitely buy, don't rent. Figure out your weight and that of your CFI first, then go shop for the Cessna of your choice. I frankly, don't care for Cessnas but then I'm the strange one of the bunch.

I'll deliver this one for you, or you can come down and fly it home with the CFI:

http://www.barnstormers.com/classified_928068_1972+Traveler+AA-5.html

Or, you can take a trip to WI, visit the folks, and fly this one home:

http://www.barnstormers.com/classified_1034512_1973+GRUMMAN+AA-5+TRAVELER+.html

Both will provide fine training platform, and when you really have to take two kids, you can fit them in, just don't fly on hot, high afternoons.
 
Tom-D said:
As other's have stated, It is a matter of price with that one.

I live in Oak Harbor on the wet side.
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Timed out and high time 150, call for price, for some reason...no interior photos.

That's a sub 10k mechanics special IMO.

guessing the owner knows this but still has some out of the ball park idea on it's worth though and is embarrassed to post said ridiculous price.

This one just sold, but would have been perfect
http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28894&highlight=Pacer+buy
 
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Tom-D said:
As other's have stated, It is a matter of price with that one.

I live in Oak Harbor on the wet side.
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I left a message with my CFI. I'm guessing he knows exactly what the story is with this plane.

I used to live on the wet side too ... I love living out here where the only thing I hear is animals and wind, but from the flying standpoint, it was nice living five minutes from PAE.
 
docmirror said:
Since you have a large family, you think you will be flying with all seats full a lot. This is typically not the case. I thought 80% of my flights would be with the full family present, and all seats full. Reality is that add up the hours on the plane and divide by the time I had more than 2 inside and it's only about 7% of the time. YMMV, but realize that if you think the whole fam will be going along most of the time, that is not the case. Look at your car usage as an example. Not a perfect fit, but I'm guessing 95% of your driving hours(non-commute) are still solo.
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Yeah, I think it'll be about 80% me or me and a passenger or two, and only a few times a year would we need all seats full (in a six seat aircraft). My oldest is 18 and graduated HS, so she'll not be around (I hope :D) and the rest of them aren't all that far behind.

Picking up a plane (172/150/PA-28) at a good price and training with it seems like a pretty good plan. There's a Piper Arrow in Deer Park (http://www.deerparkaircenter.com/services/aircraft_rental) that I can get my complex endorsement in, and then have available for a little more 'oomph' if I need it for longer flights.
 
jnoetz said:
Picking up a plane (172/150/PA-28) at a good price and training with it seems like a pretty good plan. There's a Piper Arrow in Deer Park (http://www.deerparkaircenter.com/services/aircraft_rental) that I can get my complex endorsement in, and then have available for a little more 'oomph' if I need it for longer flights.
Click to expand...

OK. Note you didn't include the AA5 in your list. It is a superior plane to the others, in most circumstance.
 
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