File multiple flight plans if departure time uncertain?

FORANE

FORANE

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FORANE
An IFR flight plan is in the system and accessible from 30 minutes prior to departure until 2 hours after scheduled departure (at least this is what I have read somewhere...). Please correct me if I am wrong.

Say you are planning an IFR flight tomorrow but the time of departure is uncertain; it may be 6 pm or possibly as early as 1 pm. Instead of waiting until you know your departure time then filing at the last minute, is there any downside of filing multiple flight plans? Say file the same flight plan for 1 pm, 3 pm and also for 5 pm?
 
eman1200 said:
why? like you said, just wait until you know your departure time then file at the last minute.
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So you don't have to file while driving to the airport.
 
do you use garmin pilot or foreflight? you create a trip whenever is convenient for you (before leaving the house, whilst on the cr@pper, whilst walking the dog, the night before, during breakfast....) then set aside a whopping 2.75 seconds to hit the 'file' button while you're at the hangar before you leave.
 
FORANE said:
No. Typically I efile with fltplan.com.
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and you don't use any available EFB (like garmin which is tied in with fltplan) or have a cell phone with internet access? you can create a flight plan in fltplan.com, then modify and file at any time.
 
ATC can access your flight plan less than 30 minutes prior to ETD. It only pops up in strip form automatically 30 minutes prior to ETD. Now, the 30 minutes is a lead time for planning purposes but it really doesn’t matter unless you’re departing from an extremely busy area.
 
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So I did this once…once,as in, I would never do it again!

It just majorly confused the clearance delivery guy…after giving me my clearance he said, “Now I have to coordinate with [someone] to clear out your other flight plans. Please don’t do that again.”
 
Velocity173 said:
ATC can access your flight plan less than 30 minutes prior to ETD. It only pops up in strip form automatically 30 minutes prior to ETD. Now, the 30 minutes is a lead time for planning purposes but it really doesn’t matter unless you’re departing from an extremely busy area.
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ok, but you intended to state ATC can access your flight plan more than 30 minutes prior to ETD.
correct?
 
The Opposing Bases guys addressed this. Their answer was do not file multiple flight plans. If your plan is about to expire simply call and have them amend it.
 
FORANE said:
ok, but you intended to state ATC can access your flight plan more than 30 minutes prior to ETD.
correct?
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No, they can access it anytime after you file. They want you to file at least 30 minutes prior to ETD as a recommended lead time for planning but it’s still in the system prior to that. All they have to do is a flight plan readout (FR) of your ID. After that they can either do a strip request (SR) or if airborne pickup, a departure message (DM).

So, it’s not a big deal if you file at the last minute. And yes, depending on how the computer is set up, it will drop either 1+30 after ETD or 2+00 after ETD.
 
I can't imagine a reason to file multiple flight plans for the same flight. You mentioned FltPlan.com. I remember filing with them when the iPhone was just a twinkle in Jobs' eye and FltPlan was absolute king of online IFR filing. Even then, pilots would prepare flight plans in advance, walk to the FBO computer, log on to FltPlan, add a departure time, file the preexisting plan, and walk out to the airplane.
 
Foreflight has a cool “Amend” button… just keep updating it as pax tell you the latest lie.
 
During IR training my CFI would meet me at my hangar after my preflight and we would brief a flight and file right then and there (we discussed options way beforehand and picked one or adjusted at the hangar based on weather formation and our schedules). Pull the plane out, start up, and ask for our clearance. Less than 10 minutes after we filed. No biggie.
 
FORANE said:
No. Typically I efile with fltplan.com.
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You can still access fltplan.com from your phone. That's what I typically use to file, and I've filed from my phone dozens of times. Takes ~3 min to build/file a plan from scratch, or build it in advance and just modify the time if necessary when you're ready to click the "FILE" button.

As others have said, don't file multiple plans. It will only confuse things in the system.
 
FWIW, I've filed multiple flight plans before. Now my situation is a little different: my home airport is in the Washington DC FRZ so online filing is not an option; I must file with with Washington Center via telephone. Since I often depart from areas with poor cell service (including my home field less than 10 miles from the Capitol) I don't always have the luxury of calling back ZDC to amend the time. So if there's uncertainty I will flightplans 2 1/2 hours apart. I've had to land before because my plan timed out and they couldn't find it.

If ATC is inconvenienced by me filing multiple plans, so be it, that makes two of us...
 
Another option. File for the earliest departure. If you are about to go past the 2 hours, call 1-800-WXBRIEF and amend the flight plan with a new departure.
 
Brad Z said:
FWIW, I've filed multiple flight plans before. Now my situation is a little different: my home airport is in the Washington DC FRZ so online filing is not an option; I must file with with Washington Center via telephone. Since I often depart from areas with poor cell service (including my home field less than 10 miles from the Capitol) I don't always have the luxury of calling back ZDC to amend the time. So if there's uncertainty I will flightplans 2 1/2 hours apart. I've had to land before because my plan timed out and they couldn't find it.

If ATC is inconvenienced by me filing multiple plans, so be it, that makes two of us...
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That's interesting, I don't fly the FRZ and I haven't I wasn't aware you cannot even file an IFR flight plan without a telephone. I can sort of understand for VFR, but do you know the rationale for IFR? Or is just that the FAA has never established a dedicated online method to file directly with ZDC?

But yeah, if ya gotta ya gotta.
 
File when you get to the airport. By the time you're done with the preflight, the flight plan will be in the system.
 
midlifeflyer said:
That's interesting, I don't fly the FRZ and I haven't I wasn't aware you cannot even file an IFR flight plan without a telephone. I can sort of understand for VFR, but do you know the rationale for IFR? Or is just that the FAA has never established a dedicated online method to file directly with ZDC?

But yeah, if ya gotta ya gotta.
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When flying in or out of the FRZ, you have to have a secret PIN which is verified via telephone and allows the controller to enter secret remarks onto your flight plan that satisfies the security people in a dark room somewhere that presumably will launch the F-16s.

I suspect the reason they've never come up with a online verification method is because there are only two airports worth of folks filing FRZ flight plans, and they just route the calls to a D-side Center controller who doing other duties as well. Keep in mind this process slapped together nearly 20 years ago and has never really been changed (with the exception of calling ZDC instead of a dedicated FSS position).
 
Brad Z said:
When flying in or out of the FRZ, you have to have a secret PIN which is verified via telephone and allows the controller to enter secret remarks onto your flight plan that satisfies the security people in a dark room somewhere that presumably will launch the F-16s.

I suspect the reason they've never come up with a online verification method is because there are only two airports worth of folks filing FRZ flight plans, and they just route the calls to a D-side Center controller who doing other duties as well. Keep in mind this process slapped together nearly 20 years ago and has never really been changed (with the exception of calling ZDC instead of a dedicated FSS position).
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That makes sense.

Yeah, the super secret PIN is one of the few things I know about.
 
Country Flier said:
So I did this once…once,as in, I would never do it again!

It just majorly confused the clearance delivery guy…after giving me my clearance he said, “Now I have to coordinate with [someone] to clear out your other flight plans. Please don’t do that again.”
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Me too. Did that only once (before FF had the ‘amend flight plan’ option. Never again!
 
As an Avare user, we don't have the cool latest features of an EFB. On the plus side, the EFB software cost per use is infinitely less expensive.

I filed with fltplan.com >24h in advance. In at least one reference it appears fltplan.com will actually file the plan 22h prior to ETD, however, on my flight yesterday fltplan.com states it was actually filed 3 hours prior to ETD. So, it should have been in the system, but the controller seemed to have a little difficulty finding it as he asked me if I had a plan on file before coming back with the clearance as filed.
 
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midlifeflyer said:
That's interesting, I don't fly the FRZ and I haven't I wasn't aware you cannot even file an IFR flight plan without a telephone. I can sort of understand for VFR, but do you know the rationale for IFR? Or is just that the FAA has never established a dedicated online method to file directly with ZDC?

But yeah, if ya gotta ya gotta.
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Any flight plan, IFR or VFR can't be filed from, into, or through the FRZ using automation with the exception of military flights. Some STARS penetrate the FRZ and can't be filed by part 91 or 135 operators (this may only apply to transition routes that do go through the FRZ.
 
Pinecone said:
Another option. File for the earliest departure. If you are about to go past the 2 hours, call 1-800-WXBRIEF and amend the flight plan with a new departure.
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That depends. FSS does not necessarily have access to IFR flight plans filed by other third parties such as ForeFlight.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Foreflight has a cool “Amend” button… just keep updating it as pax tell you the latest lie.
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Each center has a lockout window for amendments and cancels of flight plans. It varies between 46 minutes and a little over an hour. During the lockout, any flight plan update will be rejected. You can call the ATC clearance delivery phone number and they can update your proposed departure time. If a phone number is not published for your towered airport, you can either call the relevant center or in most cases, the clearance delivery phone number listed for a nearby airport that is not towered.
 
John Collins said:
Any flight plan, IFR or VFR can't be filed from, into, or through the FRZ using automation with the exception of military flights. Some STARS penetrate the FRZ and can't be filed by part 91 or 135 operators (this may only apply to transition routes that do go through the FRZ.
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I'm going to sound like an ignoramous. I always thought the FRZ is the big circle and little circle combined. Apparently it's just the little circle and the big circle is the SFRA. When I filed IFR to go from Culpeper up to Bedford I can't remember what the route was. I was able to do it electronically but I was vectored to ensure I did not cross through the FRZ.
 
For the situation described in the OP, I’ll file with a departure time waaay past when I hope to get out, then amend just the time when I’m about to leave (possibly even in the plane after startup, but usually a bit earlier than that). I use the 1800wx-brief site but I imagine FF or other ones I’m too cheap to pay for will do the same, since it’s all going to Leidos anyway.

Within I think 2 hours (1?) the system won’t let you amend it BUT it’ll let you amend it outside of that, and it goes active quickly.

The only reason I’ve considered filing multiple plans for the same start field is if I’m considering multiple routes due to weather. But even then, if I’m uncertain it’s easier to file for way later and amend both the time and route.

Add: at least with 1800wx-brief, editing on my iPhone is very easy.
 
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Many times I have filed while on the runup pad, and the tower has it within 30 seconds.
 
John Collins said:
Each center has a lockout window for amendments and cancels of flight plans. It varies between 46 minutes and a little over an hour. During the lockout, any flight plan update will be rejected. You can call the ATC clearance delivery phone number and they can update your proposed departure time. If a phone number is not published for your towered airport, you can either call the relevant center or in most cases, the clearance delivery phone number listed for a nearby airport that is not towered.
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Here’s the AIM reference about that:
5−1−12. Change in Flight Plan
a. In addition to altitude or flight level, destination and/or route changes, increasing or decreasing the speed of an aircraft constitutes a change in a flight plan. Therefore, at any time the average true airspeed at cruising altitude between reporting points varies or is expected to vary from that given in the flight plan by plus or minus 5 percent, or 10 knots, whichever is greater, ATC should be advised.
b. All changes to existing flight plans should be completed more than 46 minutes prior to the proposed departure time. Changes must be made with the initial flight plan service provider. If the initial flight plan’s service provider is unavailable, filers may contact an ATC facility or FSS to make the necessary revisions. Any revision 46 minutes or less from the proposed departure time must be coordinated through an ATC facility or FSS.
5−1−13. Change in Proposed Departure Time
a. To prevent computer saturation in the en route environment, parameters have been established to delete proposed departure flight plans which have not been activated. Most centers have this parameter set so as to delete these flight plans a minimum of 2 hours after the proposed departure time or Expect Departure Clearance Time (EDCT). To ensure that a flight plan remains active, pilots whose actual departure time will be delayed 2 hours or more beyond their filed departure time, are requested to notify ATC of their new proposed departure time.
b. Due to traffic saturation, ATC personnel frequently will be unable to accept these revisions via radio. It is recommended that you forward these revisions to a flight plan service provider or FSS.
 
If you’ve made any changes to the Route, do not accept Cleared As Filed. Even if you cancelled one Flight Plan before filing another.


5−2−6. Abbreviated IFR Departure Clearance (Cleared. . .as Filed) Procedures
a. ATC facilities will issue an abbreviated IFR departure clearance based on the ROUTE of flight filed in the IFR flight plan, provided the filed route can be approved with little or no revision. These abbreviated clearance procedures are based on the following conditions:
1. The aircraft is on the ground or it has departed visual flight rules (VFR) and the pilot is requesting IFR clearance while airborne.
2. That a pilot will not accept an abbreviated clearance if the route or destination of a flight plan filed with ATC has been changed by the pilot or the company or the operations officer before departure.
3. That it is the responsibility of the company or operations office to inform the pilot when they make a change to the filed flight plan.
4. That it is the responsibility of the pilot to inform ATC in the initial call-up (for clearance) when the filed flight plan has been either:
(a) Amended, or
(b) Canceled and replaced with a new filed flight plan.
NOTE−
The facility issuing a clearance may not have received the revised route or the revised flight plan by the time a pilot requests clearance.
 
John Collins said:
That depends. FSS does not necessarily have access to IFR flight plans filed by other third parties such as ForeFlight.
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Huh? Once they are in the system, they should. And I have never run into a situation where they did not.
 
Pinecone said:
Huh? Once they are in the system, they should. And I have never run into a situation where they did not.
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At one point in time, IFR flight plans were filed through DUATS and then Leidos. Those flight plans were available to FSS. For at least 8 years, ForeFlight does not transmit its flight plans to FSS, they are just sent to the relevant center via the AFTN network and FSS is not on copy. As long as the IFR flight plan remains in the proposed state (before you are issued a clearance), only one center has access to the plan. If you contact the adjacent center and ask for your clearance, they won't have it. Each airport has a center assigned to it to process all IFR flight plans that depart that airport. You can find the relevant center in FAA order 7350.9 for each airport with an assigned identifier and listed in the NAS. If the departure point is not an airport, then there are surface center boundaries (not charted) that divide up the airspace between centers by agreement. Within 50 NM or so of the published center boundaries, the surface boundaries can be substantially different than the charted boundaries. The center computers will only accept flight plans that are assigned to them or that enter their airspace at some point on the route, otherwise they are rejected, not my job! You would think that there would be a single repository for flight plans in the US, but not so. If you have ever been to Sun N Fun, you might see this in action if you air file. That is why these instructions are provided in the NOTAM:

Destinations to the Northeast and East coast through Orlando Approach: Orlando Approach is unable to retrieve flight plan information or activate IFR clearances for aircraft requesting an IFR pick up that file off the Lakeland area airports. Aircraft departing VFR from the LAL area destined to the east coast or northeast must file a flight plan showing CAMBE intersection or X61 (Bob White Airport) as their departure point in order to receive airborne IFR clearance. Enter AIRFILE or IFR PICK UP in the remarks section of the flight plan. MONITOR first then contact Orlando Approach at or below 4,500 feet on 119.4. Remain clear of Orlando Class B airspace.

Destinations to the North or Northwest through Jacksonville Approach: Jacksonville Approach is unable to retrieve flight plan information or activate IFR clearances for aircraft requesting an IFR pick up that file off the Lakeland area airports. Aircraft departing VFR from the LAL area destined to the north or northwest must file a flight plan showing either CGC (Crystal River Airport) or INF (Inverness Airport) as their departure point in order to receive airborne IFR clearance. Enter AIRFILE or IFR PICK UP in the remarks section of the flight plan. Approximately ten (10) miles south of CGC/INF, MONITOR first then contact Jacksonville Approach at or below 9,500 feet on 120.92
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All VFR flight plans are available to FSS.
 
Llewtrah381 said:
For the situation described in the OP, I’ll file with a departure time waaay past when I hope to get out, then amend just the time when I’m about to leave (possibly even in the plane after startup, but usually a bit earlier than that). I use the 1800wx-brief site but I imagine FF or other ones I’m too cheap to pay for will do the same, since it’s all going to Leidos anyway.

Within I think 2 hours (1?) the system won’t let you amend it BUT it’ll let you amend it outside of that, and it goes active quickly.

The only reason I’ve considered filing multiple plans for the same start field is if I’m considering multiple routes due to weather. But even then, if I’m uncertain it’s easier to file for way later and amend both the time and route.

Add: at least with 1800wx-brief, editing on my iPhone is very easy.
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What is the point of filing and amending when you can just file when you get to the airport. The cutoff for amendments is usually 46 minutes prior to ETD, not two hours. IFR flight plans don't need to be filed through Leidos, ForeFlight doesn't along with others who provide third party filing.
 
Things like altitude or route amendments can easily be done when picking up the clearance. No different than changing that stuff while airborne. Few strokes from the flight data guy is all it takes.

Now, changing aircraft color, persons on board, etc. that'll have to be thru FSS or whatever flight plan product your using.
 
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John Collins said:
What is the point of filing and amending when you can just file when you get to the airport.
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Because I can often file at my desktop computer and get the briefing, etc., which is especially convenient for a more involved route. I’ve definitely done it from my phone - including many times as you described. In fact, that’s easily the most common way while on the road and returning. I’m just offering an option for when departure time may be less certain.

It may be 46 minutes although my sense has been its longer. Kinda moot: if departure time becomes delayed or uncertain, for myself, I typically find the window to amend it has passed.
 
John Collins said:
At one point in time, IFR flight plans were filed through DUATS and then Leidos. Those flight plans were available to FSS. For at least 8 years, ForeFlight does not transmit its flight plans to FSS, they are just sent to the relevant center via the AFTN network and FSS is not on copy. As long as the IFR flight plan remains in the proposed state (before you are issued a clearance), only one center has access to the plan. If you contact the adjacent center and ask for your clearance, they won't have it. Each airport has a center assigned to it to process all IFR flight plans that depart that airport. You can find the relevant center in FAA order 7350.9 for each airport with an assigned identifier and listed in the NAS. If the departure point is not an airport, then there are surface center boundaries (not charted) that divide up the airspace between centers by agreement. Within 50 NM or so of the published center boundaries, the surface boundaries can be substantially different than the charted boundaries. The center computers will only accept flight plans that are assigned to them or that enter their airspace at some point on the route, otherwise they are rejected, not my job! You would think that there would be a single repository for flight plans in the US, but not so. If you have ever been to Sun N Fun, you might see this in action if you air file. That is why these instructions are provided in the NOTAM:

All VFR flight plans are available to FSS.
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Nice explanation. BUT, I have filed via FF and called FSS and amended the departure time. They did take a minute or two to get the flight plan called up.

And, BTW, approach control sees your flight plan, not just center. Locally, we call the local approach for our clearance and IFr release.
 
Pinecone said:
Nice explanation. BUT, I have filed via FF and called FSS and amended the departure time. They did take a minute or two to get the flight plan called up.

And, BTW, approach control sees your flight plan, not just center. Locally, we call the local approach for our clearance and IFr release.
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Yes, approach control or a tower sees the flight plan, distribution is from the center they belong to that handles their flight plans. FSS does not get a copy of an IFR flight plan if you file through ForeFlight, so are unable to amend a filed flight plan. If you were to specifically request an FSS specialist to relay a departure update to center, even though they did not have a copy of the flight plan, they would most likely do this on a land line for you. But otherwise, the specialist is going to respond they can't amend your IFR flight plan because they don't have access. There is no mechanism for them to call up your flight plan. I just called and verified this with an FSS specialist.
 
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