Fatality Crash KHOU looks like a Cirrus

Velocity173 said:
Listen, as long as the comments aren't vulgar or tasteless then there's nothing wrong with "I think" speculation. If an experienced pilot has a theory or speculation about an accident, then I want to hear about it.

If you have problems with pilots analyzing accidents based on limited evidence, then turn the page.
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So you may be right, but stop and think about how you would feel if someone close to you (a child, a mother, a sister, a close friend) is being trashed by some anonymous internet super pilot dismissing them as a pilot exhibiting "poor airmanship". I have no issue with you or others speculating that it was a stall, or a fuel exhaustion issue, or a cross wind issue. None at all. But when you and others start to haul out the insults for a dead pilot then I am no longer on board.
 
bikert said:
So you may be right, but stop and think about how you would feel if someone close to you (a child, a mother, a sister, a close friend) is being trashed by some anonymous internet super pilot dismissing them as a pilot exhibiting "poor airmanship". I have no issue with you or others speculating that it was a stall, or a fuel exhaustion issue, or a cross wind issue. None at all. But when you and others start to haul out the insults for a dead pilot then I am no longer on board.
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Can you please reference which post contained an insult?
 
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Just listening to the local news reported quoted an NTSB investigator "the aircraft was in a flat spin when it impacted the ground" .... and that another investigation team would confirm the initial report in the near future.
 
I am surprised at the NTSB'S lack of professionalism in this investigation so far.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk
 
I guess I see now why he was comfortable enough to say it...
 
Mike Smith said:
Can you please reference which post contained an insult?
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The search function is your friend. Of course you'd have to remember that the original poster wasn't smart enough to know that airmanship is one word.

unsafervguy said:
i doubt that was any factor, the gust factor was only 10 knots, unless she was flying just above stall speed a 10 knot gust should not have cause a stall. and to get in to a spin it would have to be an uncoordinated stall.
As to changing to 12, that is not going to happen at KHOB. with the amount of traffic, and the traffic at KIAH, they are not going to turn the airport around for one aircraft.
this accident looks like it was caused by a point that I really do not like in the current flight training mindset. people are not learning to control an aircraft at the edges of the envelope. most private pilots never see and accelerated stall, never exceed 45 degrees of bank and do not understand that stall speed only increases in a bank if load factor is increased.

this looks like a simple case of poor airman ship combined with winds approaching the max demonstrated for the aircraft and distraction due to a sick family member that ended as the worst case. my heart goes out for all those involved, but I hope that all pilots can learn from this that pilots need to know their limitations and know when to fall back and say time to change the plan.

bob
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timwinters said:
The search function is your friend. Of course you'd have to remember that the original poster wasn't smart enough to know that airmanship is one word.
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Ok, so which post had an insult? Cause it ain't in that one.
Edit, I found it in your post. You saying the other poster " isn't smart enough" is the first insult in this thread.
 
Get used to incorrect reporting of the media, they don't know what they're doing to begin with.
Don't forget the witness accounts that the pilot steered the airplane away from the propane tanks to minimize damage. "Think of the children" mentality again.
None of it, however, brings the deceased back.
A tragic event that we cannot undo. :(
The only thing we can do is to learn from it and try to hopefully prevent it from happening to us.
A smart man once said "try to learn from the mistakes of others, you won't live long enough to make them all yourself".
R.I.P. and I really feel for the family, especially the surviving father. :(
 
Mike Smith said:
Ok, so which post had an insult? Cause it ain't in that one.
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It's my understanding that this is what people are saying was the insult in that post "this looks like a simple case of poor airman ship..."

Was it? I guess that's for everyone to decide for themselves.
 
Can we not turn this thread into a battle of who is right and who is wrong? Some feel people are being disrespectful of the dead, some don't. But at the end of the day, three people are dead. A man with cancer just lost two sons. Four children just lost both their parents.
 
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Cajun_Flyer said:
Can we not turn this thread into a battle of who is right and who is wrong? Some feel people are being disrespectful of the dead, some don't. But at the end of the day, three people are dead. A man with cancer just lost two sons. Four children just lost both their parents.
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thank you.

ETres said:
Entire video. Tough to watch, even though I don't see any bodies - just the impact and aftermath.

http://abc13.com/news/video-deadly-plane-crash-near-hobby-airport/1380393/
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Holy ****!
 
Jeez. Thankfully that video was grainier than something in HD. Brutal.

Definitely no fuel spilling that I can see; the wing split right where the tank is?
 
Could be wrong, and just speculative - looks like a spin, or some form of autorotation; so very vertical. Not that steep, nose down, as in, say, a Cessna, but I dunno how steep a Cirrus spins. Apparently not an airplane in which to yank and bank. . .not knocking the airplane, just acknowledging the edges are close, low and slow. . .

Not knocking the pilot, either. Though it appears she may have lost control, even if so, I imagine she'd do it diffrently with another chance.

Just my opinion, I could be wrong: the tower controller is blameless. He has to expect some minimum abilty, some degree of aircraft control, some fundamentals of airmanship. Not saying she was a bad pilot; just that, maybe, she had a brief lapse, and at the worst time possible.
 
A few thoughts:

First off, Hobby is an easy airport to fly into, until it isn't. I've landed there when I was alone in the pattern, and I've landed there when it was a beehive. In any case, the tower guys have always been very accommodating, treating our RV with the same tone and respect as the airliners. There would be NO reason to avoid Hobby in a Cirrus.**

Second, and this is something I'd be curious about: Does the SR20 have air conditioning? Presuming the answer is "no", the temps here on the coast have been very hot, with very high humidity. The high temp in Houston yesterday was 90 degrees.

Combine that with low altitude, high-ish winds, and a 90 degree cross wind assigned runway, I'm sure the ride into Houston was miserable -- hot, sticky, and bumpy. I'm sure the urge to get that puppy down was strong after a 3 hour flight.

Now, throw in the inability to land twice, and by the third attempt I'm sure tensions were high, even though her voice didn't show it. Now throw in a confusing final runway assignment, a command to keep it in close, and the unexpected need to be looking out for an airliner -- and you've got task saturation.

Finally, was fuel an issue? Seems like it might have been.

All in all, a horrible confluence of events, with terrible consequences.

** - Once a month, Hobby's old 1940s Air Terminal (now a museum) throws a GA fly-in that is well attended. We have attended several times. Does this sound like a big, bad, GA-unfriendly airport?

Nope!
 
I agree, not an easy video to watch. I was hoping the car cushioned the impact to some degree. From the video, I learned how wrong I was.
R.I.P.

And of course the a**holes at the news station are already profiteering from the deaths, inserting advertisement into the crash footage. Talk about disrespectful to the dead. :(
 
Jay Honeck said:
** - Once a month, Hobby's old 1940s Air Terminal (now a museum) throws a GA fly-in that is well attended. We have attended several times. Does this sound like a big, bad, GA-unfriendly airport?

Nope!
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True.
Jay, could you please PM me more information? I would be definitely interested, never been.
Maybe we could make it a bigger PoA visit and hold a minute of silence for the deceased on site?
 
That was not a spin, of any kind, looked more like a pancake with a last second turn.
 
wow, if that video doesn't put a pit in your stomach nothing ever will.
 
This one hits home for me. I flew into IAH (even busier than Hobby) for my first time in Class B last year, and while it turned out to be a non-event for me, I can relate to the pucker factor of flying into a field that's a lot busier than what you're used to. You have to be on your "A" game, no doubt about it.

I sounded super calm on the radio, but inside my nerves were on edge - and this pilot was apparently the same way. I got a last-minute runway change and handled it fine, but I could see myself getting flustered on a really bad day. This is just a reminder that bad days in aviation can be deadly.

That said, this incident was more than getting flustered. Could have been fuel starvation. We'll know more when the NTSB reports come out, but for now my key takeaway is to always remember that I don't have to accept ATC instructions. I was fortunate to have an instructor who taught that "unable" is one of the best words you can use. I need to keep that top of mind if I'm getting overwhelmed.
 
I'm glad that video didn't have sound. I watched someone spin in and the sound of the impact is burned in me way more than the visual. It's just a "whump". Someone else described it like the sound when you drop a load of wet towels. Those last few seconds, ugh.
 
Shepherd said:
There were a lot of mistakes made, but I'm siding with the pilot.
You are low and slow, being told to keep it tight, speed it up, and look for an inbound 727. Suddenly your focus is no longer 100% on your airplane, you are worried about getting run over by some heavy metal.
Recipe for disaster.
JMHO: When is the last time an instructor taught you how to tell ATC to stuff it? When was the last time you were even taught you could tell ATC to stuff it and live to tell the tale?
Most new pilots have no idea you are even allowed to do something like that. A few lines in the AIM are useless compared to someone in authority taking you through the process with some scenario training.
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So it's the controller's fault?
 
Matthew said:
I'm glad that video didn't have sound. I watched someone spin in and the sound of the impact is burned in me way more than the visual. It's just a "whump". Someone else described it like the sound when you drop a load of wet towels. Those last few seconds, ugh.
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Yup. I watched a Cub spin in and you're right -- the sound is horrible. :(
 
Velocity173 said:
Because the fact she couldn't get her aircraft down. That's pilot error or poor airmanship. It's not like she was going into some small grass strip where you need to nail your altitude and speed. She was going into a massive airfield with long runways and good visual cues.

...
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Yep, and that might have been part of the problem - much longer and wider runways than the pilot was accustomed to, completely different visual cues, a slick airplane, a quartering tailwind component and an air traffic controller advising her of a jet approaching at a rapid closing speed behind her on the first attempt. And then it goes downhill from there.

Like almost every accident, a series of factors that compound to create the final outcome.
 
eman1200 said:
I agree. I'm not a big fan when someone mentions landing at one of the big, busy Class Bravo's for the sole purpose of being able to say they did it. great, you did it. I'm sure all the big iron is really happy for you. but I mean, everyone has a right to, just not on my list of things I need to do. in this case they might have had an actual reason to (family medical issue) but if there were other, smaller options that would be my preference.
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I agree, assuming the pilot is just landing at the busy airport to cross it off a bucket list. That’s pretty pointless.

But I also think pilots shouldn’t be scared of landing at big airports when it makes sense. They make you more proficient so that next time you’re in busy airspace, you’re more ready for it - a lesson that applies to a busy pattern at a sleepy airport, too. It’s a good way to grow.

At least, I felt that way. I’ve flown into Class B several times since my flight to IAH last fall and gotten more comfortable with it every time. If I avoided the Bravo and only landed at sleepy airports, I think I’d be a worse pilot for it. And I suspect I’d be significantly more likely to end up getting flustered and crashing like it appears this pilot did if I didn’t have that experience under my belt.

I’d encourage folks to land at the big airports when it makes sense (you’ve got a reason to be there, your skill set is ready for it, the weather conditions are excellent, you do lots of homework so you know what to expect, etc.) It’s a great way to grow.

You could say the same thing for big-city pilots who never land at rural fields with short, narrow strips. The risks go up when they’re not used to doing that, so it’s a good idea to get slightly out of your comfort zone when the conditions are right. Grow your skills when the conditions are best because you'll need them when the conditions are suboptimal.
 
GRG55 said:
Yep, and that might have been part of the problem - much longer and wider runways than the pilot was accustomed to, completely different visual cues, a slick airplane, a quartering tailwind component and an air traffic controller advising her of a jet approaching at a rapid closing speed behind her on the first attempt. And then it goes downhill from there.

Like almost every accident, a series of factors that compound to create the final outcome.
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Still doesn't change the fact that she is PIC of that aircraft. To go into a major airport and not be prepared for size distance illusion (wide runway), is on her. It's not the controller's fault, her instructor's fault, or anyone else. She made the error. Let's stop pushing our faults onto others and take responsibility for our actions.

There's a word called "unable" that all
pilots with average experience already understand. Fly your aircraft!
 
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Ugh.
I watched it about 20 times.
The rocket fires out the back just after impact. Looks like the crash caused it to go off.
It is spinning pretty good. You can see the shadow when it first enters the frame on the far road and it looks like it makes at least a full rotation before it hits.

I wish she would have at least pulled it at the onset. Never know. It has worked lower.

Sad
 
teejayevans said:
We know from video it had fuel, can see it pour down the windshield from the left tank, I think the cloud of dust may be the fuel vaporized from impact.
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Sure does look that way and you can see what appears (to me) to be a small wave of fuel rush out of the right (far) side on to the ground.
 
Cajun_Flyer said:
I got a bit overwhelmed once coming into my airport after a bumpy flight. It was really windy and I was tired and just wanted to get on the ground. When I came in, traffic was really heavy. They immediately threw me into a left 360, then extended my downwind and put me 5th in line for landing. But I came in too tight and overshot turning base. It was only my 3rd time out solo. I found myself on direct path/same altitude to traffic in the opposite downwind. I called into tower and told them my mistake (and that I was a student pilot). Then I got dumb - I began over-correcting and sharply turning into final. Thankfully, the girl quickly pushed the other traffic out of my way. She then switched from speaking a mile a minute to talking very slowly and calmly, assuring me that I had plenty of room to maneuver and to take my time. The other pilot (who I figured was cursing me), was kind enough to chime in and say "She's doing great!" Thanks to them, I was able to breathe, realize the danger I was putting myself into and shallowed out my turn. I actually made a really smooth crosswind landing.

This story has left a pit in my stomach today. For one thing, it's so sad - despite being overwhelmed, she sounded very calm and was doing her best to mitigate, but failed. It's heartbreaking. But also, I guess it just hit close to home, as I can absolutely see how this sort of thing could happen - and how fast it can happen. I don't let myself get panicked by traffic or ATC directions anymore. If I start feeling unsure or uncomfortable with a situation, I either say I'm unable or just ask them to resequence me. They've never given me a hard time, just new instructions.
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This is a recipe for life that I learned from aviation, if you're feeling rushed its because you are behind. When that happens its time to figure out how to get back ahead, that may mean a pause rather than treading water
 
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