Fatality Crash KHOU looks like a Cirrus

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by Warlock, Jun 9, 2016.

  1. Warlock

    Warlock Line Up and Wait

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  2. steingar

    steingar Touchdown! Greaser!

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    No fire. Wonder if there was any gas.
     
  3. overdrive148

    overdrive148 En-Route

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    Last edited: Jun 9, 2016
  4. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Final Approach

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    no chute.....
     
  5. wsuffa

    wsuffa Touchdown! Greaser!

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    No chute. Flightaware shows 3 hours in the air. No fuel spill. And (literally) a few hundred feet from runway.
     
  6. ChemGuy

    ChemGuy Line Up and Wait

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    RIP.
    Stall at low AGL?
     
  7. GRG55

    GRG55 En-Route

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    It looks like he dropped almost straight in as everything around the site is unscathed except the car it landed on. Wonder if the chute was pulled but too late and too low to make a save?
     
  8. FastEddieB

    FastEddieB Final Approach

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    Extensive discussion brewing over on COPA.

    Link there to liveatc recording of incident.

    Female pilot who seemed in way over her head, unable to descend properly in a couple prior tries, then?

    I'll see if I can post that link.

    Anyway, we were on our way to a quarter with no Cirrus fatalities. Damn.
     
  9. FastEddieB

    FastEddieB Final Approach

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  10. guyjr

    guyjr Filing Flight Plan

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    That was not easy to listen to. Is the COPA discussion open to non-paid members?
     
  11. Mike Smith

    Mike Smith Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

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    Something tells me that this will be a big story. Listening to the tape was tough, she was clearly overwhelmed. I hope if I ever do get in a jam I get a controller like that guy, he was awesome. Regardless of how it happened though, three people lost their lives, it is a sad day. Prayers to the families.
     
  12. Sam D

    Sam D Cleared for Takeoff PoA Supporter

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    Here's the Flightaware track. I couldn't zoom in enough to untangle the spaghetti at the end. Very sad.
     
  13. DeckardTrinity

    DeckardTrinity Pre-Flight

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    I've only flown in to a Bravo once (KIAD), and I am very glad my instructor was sitting right next to me when I did. Got thrown a curveball just like this pilot - last minute runway change on about a 1 mile final. I was not ready for it, but my instructor was, and guided me to a safe landing.

    Prayers to the families.
     
  14. ifly4fun

    ifly4fun Line Up and Wait PoA Supporter

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    Almost direct xwind g20..
     
  15. OkieFlyer

    OkieFlyer Pattern Altitude

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    Wow. That really sucks. Sounds like the last minute runway change fouled her up. I thought she sounded fairly calm throughout most of it. I'd speculate that she may have banked too hard after being told to keep it tight, and stalled. I had a friend do just that in a Cirrus a few years ago. On board data showed that he banked 60° while low and slow, and fell out the sky. According to the data, he went full right aileron and full right rudder after the stall, and snap rolled into the deck. No time to pull the chute. May they rest in peace.
     
  16. Shawn

    Shawn En-Route

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    Saw this on facebook with report of Tower Controller witnessing stall spin on base turn.
     
  17. tuwood

    tuwood Pre-takeoff checklist

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    It was on left cross for 35. Here's the spot where she went down:

    crash.png
     
  18. pgbrambi

    pgbrambi Filing Flight Plan

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  19. SkyDog58

    SkyDog58 Final Approach

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    What's the demonstrated crosswind component on a SR20? When she was trying to land on Rwy 35, the winds were 100@15G20 the first time and then 090@13G18 the second time. That's 110 &100 degrees respectively off of runway heading which makes it a slightly right quartering tail wind with some nice gusts. I would not want those conditions. Rwy 4 would have been a better choice from the start of this sequence. Surprised that it was neither requested nor offered sooner though Rwy 4 was mentioned the time that ATC said this one would be easier but then she says something and he replies back with a cleared to land on 35 again. I can't really tell if she was offered 4 and asked for 35 instead. If so, WTF? Of course none of that quite explains a stall spin from upwind to crosswind on a go around. A bit confounding overall.
     
  20. Cajun_Flyer

    Cajun_Flyer Pattern Altitude

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    She sounded really calm despite her struggles and the strong crosswinds. The ATC guy had been being really good with her through it all, but that last call to her was really long and I can see how it may have confused or flustered her in her situation. If she was trying to focus on all that he was saying while also "keeping it in tight" during a turn with the strong winds... not a good recipe.

    Very sad.

    That poor ATC guy too... can't imagine how hard that must have been for him.
     
  21. Cajun_Flyer

    Cajun_Flyer Pattern Altitude

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    They've identified the victims:

    "We have been told by friends at the family business in Oklahoma that they believe Jerry Gray, his brother Tony Gray and Tony's wife Dana Gray were all on the plane headed from Norman, Oklahoma, to Houston to visit Jerry and Tony's sick father, who is being treated at MD Anderson Cancer Center."
     
  22. Warlock

    Warlock Line Up and Wait

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    NTSB investigator flat out said it looked like a stall on Houston TV...after two missed for being two high...
     
  23. tuwood

    tuwood Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I fly an SR20 almost identical to this one. The demonstrated crosswind is 20kts. You can go higher of course, but it takes higher approach speeds and likely 50% flaps.
    She was struggling to get down which she mentioned and if you look at the flight track posted above you can see the following:
    Her first approach looks like a midfield cross to normal downwind pattern entry (that was really a crossing wind). Her downwind was almost exactly a mile east of the runway and she turned base at almost exactly two miles then massively overshot the final turn, likely due to the tailwind on base. With no headwind and even a tailwind a normal approach would just float like crazy with that one. It almost looks like she did a 360° on that approach one mile away so I'm not sure what that's about.
    Then on her subsequent attempt her downwind was very tight at 1/2 a mile and her turn to base was also shorter at ~1.4 miles.

    I'm still a newbie myself, but I feel the "keep it in tight" instructions led her to stay tight with the runway on her downwind at a half mile. This then made it near impossible for her to get down on the runway.
    With full or even half flaps climbing out the SR20 isn't exactly a rocket so the speeds are relatively low. She could have forgot the flaps and left them in, she could have tried pulling them out as she was turning, she could have simply let the pitch get away and straight up power on stalled it in the turn to cross.

    Either way, it's a terrible tragedy.
     
  24. Mike Smith

    Mike Smith Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

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    She made two approaches to 35, they then changed her to 4. She was downwind 4 making the base turn when it went bad.

    Edit, looking at that track, I'm not sure what was going on. In the tape, they said they were moving her to 4 so she could just make a right turn.
     
  25. SkyDog58

    SkyDog58 Final Approach

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    That does not seem to be what the photographic evidence and flight track shows. What you state would put her southwest of midfield, she crashed northwest of midfield.
     
  26. overdrive148

    overdrive148 En-Route

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    Heartbreaking.
     
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  27. Mike Smith

    Mike Smith Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

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    I just listened again. She is making right traffic for 35, has to go around on both. Immediately the controller tells her to make a LEFT turn to entry the downwind for 4. He tells her to keep it tight ( I assume he means the downwind ) that he will sequence her in behind a 737, soon after the airplane crashes.
     
  28. Warlock

    Warlock Line Up and Wait

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    NTSB guy on the news again said the airplane impacted in a 65 ft area between 40 power lines and a 20 foot building with neither receiving damage...they went straight in...
     
  29. hindsight2020

    hindsight2020 Pattern Altitude

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    joker.jpg

    ...from the same people who brought you Captain sum tin wong and FO Wi Tu Lo mind you.:rolleyes:
     
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  30. FastEddieB

    FastEddieB Final Approach

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    Can we please show some respect for the dead and not play this for yucks. Or at least not on the very first day.
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2016
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  31. Lowflynjack

    Lowflynjack Cleared for Takeoff

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    I can understand her confusion. She was overwhelmed and said she couldn't get down. She misses on 35 and is now North of the airport, which it doesn't sound like she's familiar with, when he tells her to turn left and enter left downwind for 4 (and keep it tight), or he might switch her to 35. So if she did a 180 she would be on a downwind for 35, but not parallel to 4, which we associate with a downwind. If she turned left from North of the field at this airport, she wouldn't be in tight on the downwind for 4, so more confusion. She crashed trying to turn back around, probably very stressed out by this point.

    I try to tell new pilots, if you're stressed out and having issues at an airport, leave. Go away from the airport and relax for a few minutes before trying again. Sad ending today.

    [​IMG]
     
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  32. Cajun_Flyer

    Cajun_Flyer Pattern Altitude

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    I got a bit overwhelmed once coming into my airport after a bumpy flight. It was really windy and I was tired and just wanted to get on the ground. When I came in, traffic was really heavy. They immediately threw me into a left 360, then extended my downwind and put me 5th in line for landing. But I came in too tight and overshot turning base. It was only my 3rd time out solo. I found myself on direct path/same altitude to traffic in the opposite downwind. I called into tower and told them my mistake (and that I was a student pilot). Then I got dumb - I began over-correcting and sharply turning into final. Thankfully, the girl quickly pushed the other traffic out of my way. She then switched from speaking a mile a minute to talking very slowly and calmly, assuring me that I had plenty of room to maneuver and to take my time. The other pilot (who I figured was cursing me), was kind enough to chime in and say "She's doing great!" Thanks to them, I was able to breathe, realize the danger I was putting myself into and shallowed out my turn. I actually made a really smooth crosswind landing.

    This story has left a pit in my stomach today. For one thing, it's so sad - despite being overwhelmed, she sounded very calm and was doing her best to mitigate, but failed. It's heartbreaking. But also, I guess it just hit close to home, as I can absolutely see how this sort of thing could happen - and how fast it can happen. I don't let myself get panicked by traffic or ATC directions anymore. If I start feeling unsure or uncomfortable with a situation, I either say I'm unable or just ask them to resequence me. They've never given me a hard time, just new instructions.
     
  33. jmp470

    jmp470 Line Up and Wait

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    RIP!!! Many chains in the events that unfolded. Unfortunately, the links ended poorly for them all.
     
  34. GRG55

    GRG55 En-Route

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    Transcript here. Says it was 20 minutes of flying trying to land. Sure seems the pilot was not familiar with the airport, appeared to lose situational awareness wrt understanding what the controller was intending with the directions. Probably got behind the airplane on the first missed approach and never quite caught up with it. Aviate. Navigate. Communicate.

    http://www.kathrynsreport.com/search?updated-max=2016-06-09T21:09:00-04:00&max-results=1
     
  35. N64543

    N64543 Pre-Flight

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    Based on the winds isn't 12 the preferred runway? In this situation can you request a different runway than what ATC is giving you?
     
  36. jordane93

    jordane93 Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    You can request anything but it doesn't mean ATC will give it to you.
     
  37. frfly172

    frfly172 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Very sad,may they rest in peace.
     
  38. wsuffa

    wsuffa Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Very sad. I have to wonder if there was a medical issue given the confusion. Or cockpit distraction.
     
  39. farmerbrake

    farmerbrake Line Up and Wait

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    I had the same thought. Haven't gotten to listen to any of the tapes.
    What runways were they landing everyone else on?
     
  40. Farmboy

    Farmboy Pre-Flight

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    Based upon eyewitness reports quoted in Kathryn's report, sounds like ran out of fuel, which may have led to a stall/spin-in.

    As a low time pilot (certified in 2014) it sounds like she accepts the controller's question of "runway 35, can you accept that?" as a statement rather than consider the wind and request a better runway. In a Cirrus 20 there is no need to accept a tailwind landing with the winds as they were.