Fatality Crash KHOU looks like a Cirrus

jordane93 said:
N64543 said:
Based on the winds isn't 12 the preferred runway? In this situation can you request a different runway than what ATC is giving you?
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You can request anything but it doesn't mean ATC will give it to you.
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Absolutely true, you can request another rwy, especially with winds close to the xwind capability of the airplane or pilot. But at such a big and busy class B airport, it is not easy at all.
She sure sounded very well on the radio but you could hear her mention a few times that she was struggling to get down. It made me think it could have been a (transition) training flight. But then the post came that she was already a licensed pilot bringing family to town to see more family.
Definitely a very sad event, as always. :( R.I.P.
 
I would think that if someone was critical on fuel that they would not let ATC to keep moving them around, would declare an emergency and put the airplane down on the runway of their choice. The pilot was way too compliant if she was that low on fuel.
 
SkyDog58 said:
I would think that if someone was critical on fuel that they would not let ATC to keep moving them around, would declare an emergency and put the airplane down on the runway of their choice. The pilot was way too compliant if she was that low on fuel.
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People let ATC tell them what to do all the time.

I got into a situation in some ice once and ATC wasn't helping, so I declared an emergency and told ATC what I'd be doing.

Low time guy with me couldn't believe we were telling not asking.
 
Reminds me of another Cirrus accident, sharp turn in the pattern but for different reasons. They got CAPS deployed but it was too late:

6 minutes 39 seconds
 
RyanShort1 said:
Basic airmanship stuff. Really sad. Too bad they didn't pull the chute.
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With a spin it would have still been a low probability survival that low. Caps needs over 1000' for a spin and that's if you hit it instantly when you spin.
Cirrus teaches to start turning cross at normal caps altitude which is 500' agl so she was likely around that altitude or maybe just a little higher.
 
tuwood said:
With a spin it would have still been a low probability survival that low. Caps needs over 1000' for a spin and that's if you hit it instantly when you spin.
Cirrus teaches to start turning cross at normal caps altitude which is 500' agl so she was likely around that altitude or maybe just a little higher.
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I was actually thinking if they had actually run out of fuel it might have been better knowing she was already having problems to just pull.
 
GRG55 said:
Transcript here. Says it was 20 minutes of flying trying to land. Sure seems the pilot was not familiar with the airport, appeared to lose situational awareness wrt understanding what the controller was intending with the directions. Probably got behind the airplane on the first missed approach and never quite caught up with it. Aviate. Navigate. Communicate.

http://www.kathrynsreport.com/search?updated-max=2016-06-09T21:09:00-04:00&max-results=1
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I don't plan to listen to the audio, but from the transcript, it seems like the controller was bouncing her between 35 and 4. Even sitting here on mu couch I was getting confused.
 
very sad. i should not have clicked on this thread,i was having a good day, now not so much.and i have been at this a very long time, something about this makes me cry.
 
I thought what ATC asking was pretty reasonable, fundamental stuff, and he was accomodating. I didn't hear him pressuring her; just the opposite, to my mind. And she didn't sound too terribly flustered, either. I didn't hear it that way, at least. It just got away from her suddenly.

Hope the tower guy doesn't beat himself up over it - he can't control the AOA. Sure wish it ended better. . .
 
Class Bravo fields can be very intimidating for the uninitiated. To pay with your life for the inability to negotiate that interaction between pilot and controller seems steep, but it's very much what happened here. A typical improper reaction to stress among the inexperienced is to be compliant over maintaining basic aircraft control. The bag of luck and the bag of experienced met, and she drew snake eyes. It sucks.

I still think there's a cultural environment that instills meekness and fear of the pilot deviation boogeyman in our inexperienced aviators.But I'll leave that discussion for another day.
 
I just cannot understand why ATC didn't offer her 12L/12R. I know he had a butt load of jets on approach, but after that many approach attempts, it was pretty obvious she was having serious problems. A commercial jet can handle those crosswinds but with a small plane it's a bit different. Obviously it is the PIC's responsibility to keep the plane under control, but hey a little assistance from the other side of the radio wouldn't hurt. I would be willing to bet the controller is not a pilot.
 
The crux of the issue it seems is turning at too steep an angle and being too slow. This just cannot happen. I'm sure the stress was getting to her but when you are low the last thing you want to do get too slow and bank at too steep an angle. What a horrible story. RIP. Hopefully people can learn from this as we should from all crashes.
 
DrPappy said:
I just cannot understand why ATC didn't offer her 12L/12R. I know he had a butt load of jets on approach, but after that many approach attempts, it was pretty obvious she was having serious problems. A commercial jet can handle those crosswinds but with a small plane it's a bit different. Obviously it is the PIC's responsibility to keep the plane under control, but hey a little assistance from the other side of the radio wouldn't hurt. I would be willing to bet the controller is not a pilot.
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this will be a case study....and no doubt a training aid in ATC's future....in what not to do. :(
 
Very very sad.

The repeated inability to get down made me think immediately of a wide runway illusion - thinking she was lower than she was and remaining high. And it ultimately just devolves from there, the visual equivalent of trying the same IAP multiple times after having to go missed.

But knowing nine of her background, that's just speculation, and not even educated speculation. It will be interesting to see the ultimate NTSB report.
 
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Being as she is local to my area, they ran the story on the local news. They said that she has owned the plane for over two years. I can tell you that we don't have any airspace up here as busy as Houston, so that was probably a huge part of the problem, but if she's had the plane for that long, surely she knew how to drive it.?.?
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
this will be a case study....and no doubt a training aid in ATC's future....in what not to do. :(
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Concur. Yeah, it's a huge pain to turn around a busy airport, but the controller just didn't seem to grasp the gravity of the situation. This one will leave a mark for all involved.
 
Damn... the couple had four kids. Everything about this story just hurts.
 
I can't help but wonder what the loud noises coming from the plane BEFORE it crashed were (reported by witnesses).
 
Cajun_Flyer said:
I can't help but wonder what the loud noises coming from the plane BEFORE it crashed were (reported by witnesses).
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Possible structural failure if she was really cranking on it though at pattern speeds, less likely. Engine sputtering if it was fuel issue?
Rocket firing and failed deployment of chute? Or just possible witness imagination which happens often.
 
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I wonder with the gusty winds if she just got too slow in the wrong direction (with or against the wind) and the bottom just fell out on her. RIP
 
Bill Jennings said:
Concur. Yeah, it's a huge pain to turn around a busy airport, but the controller just didn't seem to grasp the gravity of the situation. This one will leave a mark for all involved.
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Bill, I don't understand what you mean about the controller, the recording I listened to sounded like he was treating the pilot like a student and went way out of his way to accommodate. I think anyone would believe a pilot in that plane, flying into Bravo airspace, would have at the least, basic airmanship skills. There is no way this is on the controller.
 
Mike Smith said:
Bill, I don't understand what you mean about the controller, the recording I listened to sounded like he was treating the pilot like a student and went way out of his way to accommodate. I think anyone would believe a pilot in that plane, flying into Bravo airspace, would have at the least, basic airmanship skills. There is no way this is on the controller.
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I agree for the most part, he did try to help her, and did a good job. I do think that once she's missed twice, he gave her overly complicated instructions that made the situation more confusing.

She had just missed on 35 and you can figure by where she crashed, she was north of the airport, off-center of 35 to the left.
Air Traffic Control: “Cirrus 42-52 Golf just go ahead and make the left turn now to enter the downwind, midfield downwind for only four, if you can just give me a nice tight pattern, I’m going to have traffic four miles behind you so I need you to just kind of keep it in tight if you could. And actually I might end up sequencing behind that traffic it’s going four miles a minute, it is going to be a little bit tight with the one behind it, so when you get on that downwind, stay on the downwind and advise me when you have that 737 in site, will either do four or we might swing you around to 3-5. Uh ma’am, ma’am straighten up straighten up.”

Imagine you're frustrated and nervous, you can't get down and it's a busy airport. Then the tower gives you these complicated instructions. From where she was when she crashed, to comply with is directions, she would have to make more than 180 turn to fly back in to get in a "nice tight pattern" and "keep it in tight" for a "downwind for only four". Then to make it more complicated, he tells her he might swing her around to 35. I'm not blaming the controller, he had been more than helpful to her, even trying to reassure her. I do understand her confusion though.
 
Mike Smith said:
I think anyone would believe a pilot in that plane, flying into Bravo airspace, would have at the least, basic airmanship skills. There is no way this is on the controller.
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You're right, the pilot should have a clue, but after a few missed attempts the controller should have offered her 12L/R and given very clear vectors to that runway. Maybe he was waiting for her to declare, maybe not, but he should have at least seen that this whole evolution was quickly going sideways.
 
Mike Smith said:
Bill, I don't understand what you mean about the controller, the recording I listened to sounded like he was treating the pilot like a student and went way out of his way to accommodate. I think anyone would believe a pilot in that plane, flying into Bravo airspace, would have at the least, basic airmanship skills. There is no way this is on the controller.
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Concur.

The only reason (my interpretation) he was changing runways was the pilot's failure to successfully identify the assigned runway and land on it; pretty certain the controller was ready (and trying) to give her any runway she could get to.

Houston's controllers are top-notch, routinely very accommodating and helpful.
 
Lowflynjack said:
I agree for the most part, he did try to help her, and did a good job. I do think that once she's missed twice, he gave her overly complicated instructions that made the situation more confusing.

She had just missed on 35 and you can figure by where she crashed, she was north of the airport, off-center of 35 to the left.
Air Traffic Control: “Cirrus 42-52 Golf just go ahead and make the left turn now to enter the downwind, midfield downwind for only four, if you can just give me a nice tight pattern, I’m going to have traffic four miles behind you so I need you to just kind of keep it in tight if you could. And actually I might end up sequencing behind that traffic it’s going four miles a minute, it is going to be a little bit tight with the one behind it, so when you get on that downwind, stay on the downwind and advise me when you have that 737 in site, will either do four or we might swing you around to 3-5. Uh ma’am, ma’am straighten up straighten up.”

Imagine you're frustrated and nervous, you can't get down and it's a busy airport. Then the tower gives you these complicated instructions. From where she was when she crashed, to comply with is directions, she would have to make more than 180 turn to fly back in to get in a "nice tight pattern" and "keep it in tight" for a "downwind for only four". Then to make it more complicated, he tells her he might swing her around to 35. I'm not blaming the controller, he had been more than helpful to her, even trying to reassure her. I do understand her confusion though.
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This right here ^^^ Agree 100%. She was already having a difficult time, whether it was due to the wind or lack of Bravo experience or distractions from the pax or who knows what - it doesn't matter. His last direction to her was long and complicated, and she was likely trying to focus on listening and sorting it all out on top of everything else. The controller was doing great with her until that last transmission. Her airmanship skills or potential lack-there-of aside, he made the situation worse at the end there.
 
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PaulS said:
I wonder with the gusty winds if she just got too slow in the wrong direction (with or against the wind) and the bottom just fell out on her. RIP
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i doubt that was any factor, the gust factor was only 10 knots, unless she was flying just above stall speed a 10 knot gust should not have cause a stall. and to get in to a spin it would have to be an uncoordinated stall.
As to changing to 12, that is not going to happen at KHOB. with the amount of traffic, and the traffic at KIAH, they are not going to turn the airport around for one aircraft.
this accident looks like it was caused by a point that I really do not like in the current flight training mindset. people are not learning to control an aircraft at the edges of the envelope. most private pilots never see and accelerated stall, never exceed 45 degrees of bank and do not understand that stall speed only increases in a bank if load factor is increased.

this looks like a simple case of poor airman ship combined with winds approaching the max demonstrated for the aircraft and distraction due to a sick family member that ended as the worst case. my heart goes out for all those involved, but I hope that all pilots can learn from this that pilots need to know their limitations and know when to fall back and say time to change the plan.

bob
 
this is sad. difficult to listen to that audio.
 
unsafervguy said:
As to changing to 12, that is not going to happen at KHOB. with the amount of traffic, and the traffic at KIAH, they are not going to turn the airport around for one aircraft.
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So the only way she could have saved her life was to have declared. Got it. It is quite obvious she was spooked by the winds. Personally, I give it three trys and then I'm bugging out for an airport aligned with the wind.
 
I'd be willing to bet 35 is used for noise abatement. If the pilot wanted 12 for winds, then it's up to her to ask for it. It's not on the controller's back. Let's use some PIC judgement here.

As far as I know, the pilot didn't identify herself as a student. I thought the controller did a good job of assisting a qualified pilot who obviously didn't have the skills to operate in a busy environment. RIP.
 
I just noticed too - that last transmission sounds like a different controller than in the rest of the transmission. His voice is different. He's not as calm sounding... more aggressive, even. That could have thrown her as well.
 
Flown into Hobby many times. Busy airport w/ a lot of corporate and airline traffic. A lot of runways. Appears she got behind and task saturated. Accelerated stall/spin it sounds like. Very sad, two brothers, one their wife who was the pilot, visiting the brothers father in a cancer facility. RIP.
 
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Cajun_Flyer said:
I just noticed too - that last transmission sounds like a different controller than in the rest of the transmission. His voice is different. He's not as calm sounding... more aggressive, even. That could have thrown her as well.
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The controller working local (tower) is the one who said "straighten up", and it's obvious he witnessed her crash. I'm sure he was relieved from position and another controller took over as he no doubt was upset.
 
mscard88 said:
The controller working local (tower) is the one who said "straighten up", and it's obvious he witnessed her crash. I'm sure he was relieved from position and another controller took over as he no doubt was upset.
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I think you misunderstood. It sounds like there were two controllers talking to her - the first talked her through everything very calmly up until the last transmission... the really long transmission sounded like a new person and less calm. Yes, another controller then took over after the crash.
 
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unsafervguy said:
this looks like a simple case of poor airman ship combined with winds approaching the max demonstrated for the aircraft and distraction due to a sick family member that ended as the worst case.
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This looks like a simple case of speculation.
 
unsafervguy said:
i doubt that was any factor, the gust factor was only 10 knots, unless she was flying just above stall speed a 10 knot gust should not have cause a stall. and to get in to a spin it would have to be an uncoordinated stall.
bob
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There can be a huge difference in wind speeds reported by airport and ground level and at pattern altitude, could have easily been 20+ knot gusts up there.
 
Velocity173 said:
I'd be willing to bet 35 is used for noise abatement. If the pilot wanted 12 for winds, then it's up to her to ask for it. It's not on the controller's back. Let's use some PIC judgement here.

As far as I know, the pilot didn't identify herself as a student. I thought the controller did a good job of assisting a qualified pilot who obviously didn't have the skills to operate in a busy environment. RIP.
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Or it could be where the GA FBO is, a cirrus crash in Melbourne,FL was partly due to the controller trying to get the cirrus to the convenient runway.
 
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