Fatality Crash KHOU looks like a Cirrus

She had owned the airplane for two years but how many hours flying it? How many total hours? How many times flying into a major league airport, busy, Congested? Someone mentioned she was based at a non towered small airport in ok. If she had had a safety pilot or instructor with her, would this senseless accident have happened? I thought the tower was very understanding and helpful providing she was experienced enough to be there.he was calm and trying every way possible to get her on the ground.
 
RotorDude said:
That was not a spin, of any kind, looked more like a pancake with a last second turn.
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Would like to understand how a fixed wing plane "pancakes" without being in a stalled condition (e.g. a spin)?

That airplane has very little forward velocity.
 
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GRG55 said:
Would like to understand how a fixed wing plane "pancakes" without being in a stalled condition (e.g. a spin)?

That airplane has very little forward velocity.
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I am pretty sure it was stalled, so that's not the issue. What I said was that it wasn't a spin, flat or otherwise, just a pancake, with a last second turn at the end. You can see the shadow is not rotating, so that's a big clue.
 
If you freeze frame that video, there's some interesting items.

First is that there's two people walking to that vehicle in the background. That must have been awful for them to watch.

Secondarily, the shadow of the aircraft arrives at the top of the frame, and it looks like the sun is behind the camera and the aircraft is in a wings level screaming dive. Then just before the car hit, the airplane appears to depart level flight - my opinion, an accelerated stall just before impact. Last second pull, too hard, to arrest the descent rate.

But it definitely looks wings level prior to that.

The shadow comes at you very quickly due to the sun angle and the speed of the descent. But pause and unpause and the airplane wing shadow is level with respect to the horizon for all of the time it's in frame until the last second or so. Then it rolls.
 
Shadow of the prop appears to be windmilling.
I would guess if it had any power, the shadow of the prop would be undetectable
 
I still think it is spinning. You can see the shadow come into frame at the top behind those (propane?) tanks.
Watch it cross and come down.
 
denverpilot said:
the aircraft is in a wings level screaming dive
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I think if it were in a "screaming dive" a second or two before impact, the wreckage would have been very different -- perhaps even a crater. This wreckage pattern indicates to me a relatively slow descent, and very little forward motion, i.e. pancake. But I could be wrong, of course.
 
denverpilot said:
...First is that there's two people walking to that vehicle in the background. That must have been awful for them to watch.....
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you can see them run for cover the second the plane hits. but then, a full 20 seconds go by and they are nowhere to be seen. it should take 3-5 seconds for that "WTF" moment, and by that time you should be hauling azz over there to see if you can help.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Shadow of the prop appears to be windmilling.
I would guess if it had any power, the shadow of the prop would be undetectable
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That can be a stroboscopic effect, it's hard to gauge prop speed on video without very deep analysis.
 
eman1200 said:
you can see them run for cover the second the plane hits. but then, a full 20 seconds go by and they are nowhere to be seen. it should take 3-5 seconds for that "WTF" moment, and by that time you should be hauling azz over there to see if you can help.
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One of the articles said people were afraid it was going to explode or catch fire, which is why no one approached. I totally get your point, but if I had witnessed that, I'd be about certain there were no survivors to help.
 
Cajun_Flyer said:
One of the articles said people were afraid it was going to explode or catch fire, which is why no one approached. I totally get your point, but if I had witnessed that, I'd be about certain there were no survivors to help.
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yup, understood. it's just sickening all around.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Shadow of the prop appears to be windmilling.
I would guess if it had any power, the shadow of the prop would be undetectable
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I couldn't tell if windmilling or if mostly stopped, but it comes off rotating slowly when it's ejected forward, it appears. That doesn't really mean anything, but it's interesting. I agree it shouldn't be detectable in the shadow if it was turning normal speed, but they'll have to fully understand any scan/shutter type issues with the security camera to know that for sure.

And I'm watching this online where the encoding is messing with the video too, and they won't be. As you freeze frame during the crash, there's times when the compression and encoding is out of sync with the original and you see two copies of the aircraft overlaid on top of each other.

I noticed the two folks near the van, ran, when the sound reached them. Can't blame them.
 
RotorDude said:
I think if it were in a "screaming dive" a second or two before impact, the wreckage would have been very different -- perhaps even a crater. This wreckage pattern indicates to me a relatively slow descent, and very little forward motion, i.e. pancake. But I could be wrong, of course.
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or a spin
 
We don't yet know the details or the cause, but just listening to the audio drives home some points that could be useful to the less experienced among us:
1. You are the PIC, not ATC, not your passenger, nor anyone else. You call the shots. If ATC (or ATIS) gives you a runway which is poorly aligned with the (strong) wind, don't accept it. Ask for another runway, or fly elsewhere. Don't try to prove you are Super(wo)man. Remember the adage about superior pilots and superior skills?
2. If you see that things are not working out, don't push it. Go around, take a vector, a deep breath, settle down, possibly go to another runway or airport (assuming you have fuel). Don't let ATC or other circumstances push you into a corner.
3. Always fly the airplane first. Three most important keys to safe flying: trim, trim, and trim (unless you are intentionally slipping). Don't under- or overspeed, no steep turns after turning base.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
or a spin
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If there was a spin, it would have been at the very last second or two, just before impact. You can see the shadow is not spinning up to the last moment, when there is a sudden roll and yaw.
 
I don't think it was fully developed but it was not a regular straight ahead stall. Even when stalled aircraft still have forward velocity. About the only way to get the impact seen in the video is a spin condition. Just my opinion. At this point we are all making SWAGs at best
 
eman1200 said:
you can see them run for cover the second the plane hits. but then, a full 20 seconds go by and they are nowhere to be seen. it should take 3-5 seconds for that "WTF" moment, and by that time you should be hauling azz over there to see if you can help.
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3 to 5 seconds? I seriously doubt most humans would be able to actually process what just happened that fast. Let's remember that when something that "can't happen" (like a plane falling out of the sky right near you in a parking lot) actually does the human mind can take considerable time to accept that. The folks at Chernobyl were wandering around the wreckage of their nuclear plant looking at the debris unable to comprehend what had happened for hours after...because everything they knew told them this "couldn't possibly happen".
 
GRG55 said:
3 to 5 seconds? I seriously doubt most humans would be able to actually process what just happened that fast. Let's remember that when something that "can't happen" (like a plane falling out of the sky right next to them in a parking lot) actually does the human mind can take considerable time to accept that. The folks at Chernobyl were wandering around the wreckage of their nuclear plant looking at the debris unable to comprehend what had happened for hours after...because everything they knew told them this "couldn't possibly happen".
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Douglas Adams discusses this human trait several times in his books.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
I don't think it was fully developed but it was not a regular straight ahead stall. Even when stalled aircraft still have forward velocity. About the only way to get the impact seen in the video is a spin condition. Just my opinion. At this point we are all making SWAGs at best
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It could have been a pancake (deep stall) which developed into a spin at the very last moment. I'd wait for the NTSB's verdict, however.
 
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MAKG1 said:
Labeling it as "poor airmanship" is both useless and meaningless.
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In the absence of meaningful data and analysis, labeling it *anything* other than a crash is useless and meaningless.

Nauga,
whose armchair is in storage
 
GRG55 said:
3 to 5 seconds? I seriously doubt most humans would be able to actually process what just happened that fast. Let's remember that when something that "can't happen" (like a plane falling out of the sky right near you in a parking lot) actually does the human mind can take considerable time to accept that. The folks at Chernobyl were wandering around the wreckage of their nuclear plant looking at the debris unable to comprehend what had happened for hours after...because everything they knew told them this "couldn't possibly happen".
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And yet some people DO react faster - a lot faster. I've had it happen twice with aircrat - two different accidents that I saw happen, and at least once with a car / 18-wheeler wreck. Different people react differently.
 
Velocity173 said:
Everyone on here has pretty much speculated pilot error, in a tasteful manner I would add. Should we sugar coat an obvious observation out of respect for the dead?
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Not everyone. And I for one don't suggest sugar coating anything. I suggest recognizing our own ignorance of the circumstances surrounding most accidents beyond that provided by sources whose accuracy we usually deride, and 'analysis' performed by people not qualified to do so. Heck, not that long ago here in POA we had people (and that's plural) speculating on the cause of an accident based on a single photo. OF THE WRONG CRASH SITE. POA has also seen 'analysis' so flawed that it was not even remotely plausible, but some believed. I've seen a real damage caused by speculation on accidents (also plural) where I was a party to the investigation and the speculative causes were simply not possible...but they gained traction, and in at least one case took years to correct.

So I don't speculate, and I don't 'skip over' threads where it's happening. Has nothing to do with sugar coating (quite the opposite) nor respect for the dead, although I think getting the facts does happen to be more respectful than pulling causes out of thin air and popular media.

Nauga,
carpe data
 
RyanShort1 said:
And yet some people DO react faster - a lot faster. I've had it happen twice with aircrat - two different accidents that I saw happen, and at least once with a car / 18-wheeler wreck. Different people react differently.
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I have witnessed two aircraft accidents where the responses were rapid; one fatal, one almost. Both occurred on a runway. And I have seen numerous traffic accidents, some fatal, most not, but always on a roadway.

I would contend that these are not unexpected "this cannot happen" events for the vast majority of people. People do react differently, no doubt. But I will advance that most people, most of the time, will react more readily to events that are not "unexpected", unlike an airplane falling out of the sky into a parking lot of a hardware store.
 
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nauga said:
I've seen a real damage caused by speculation on accidents (also plural) where I was a party to the investigation and the speculative causes were simply not possible...but they gained traction, and in at least one case took years to correct.
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If you saw "real damage" occurring and you didn't stop it, is it a long term regret? Just curious.

I've taken a couple of scenarios like that where someone was getting railroaded right past the line of insubordination to get attention from higher ups who then had to ask, "WTF is going on down there?" And got them stopped.

It's risky, but I wouldn't have been sleeping well at night if I let "real damage" happen and didn't put a stop to it. I had to trust that higher ups understood the risk I was taking and that I wouldn't be bothering to put my career on the chopping block if it wasn't that important.
 
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nauga said:
In the absence of meaningful data and analysis, labeling it *anything* other than a crash is useless and meaningless.

Nauga,
whose armchair is in storage
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Well Nauga I respect your experience in these matters and I know you hate speculation but we do have meaningful data (audio & video). You and I both know the odds of this being mechanical is slim. To form a theory on this is nothing disrespectful to the dead. To not form a theory, is turning your back on one's instinct and experience.

This isn't like when we have a middair with no accompanying data and pilots automatically assuming the pilot or controller was at fault. You make assumptions based on the evidence presented. If that assumption turns out to be incorrect then "oh well, a trim failure occurred. Who'd a thought that?"

I've seen far too many accidents in my military career. We don't just keep our mouths shut like a bunch of robots. You talk amongst yourselves as to what may have happened and then wait til the official report comes out. We're pilots, we analyze and ponder the "what ifs." I would hope that all pilots have some sort of inquisitive nature when it comes to accidents. You just do it in a respectful manner and never assume your opinion is fact. Nothing worthless about that. It spurs conversation.
 
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midcap said:
sad story, I wonder if her patience ran low and tried to hurry the landing.

Is it a common thing for single engine GA aircraft to land at HOB?

Was there a smaller airport in the area with less traffic that would have worked?
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This was a HOU not HOB, HOB is in New Mexico. But yes, GA is common into HOU.
 
Yeah, that video puts a pit in your stomach. I still can't over how much energy was involved in the impact.
 
Velocity173 said:
Well Nauga I respect your experience in these matters and I know you hate speculation but we do have meaningful data (audio & video). You and I both know the odds of this being mechanical is slim. To form a theory on this is nothing disrespectful to the dead. To not form a theory, is turning your back on one's instinct and experience.
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I think the quality of video "we" have in this case is as likely to lead an inexperienced 'analyist' to a wrong conclusion as to a correct one, unless it's simply that the airplane hit the ground. The audio, that's more like a very dirty window into the cockpit. You get an idea of what's going on inside, but far from the whole picture. At this point you have a glimpse at the circumstances but lacking focus. Why am I turning my back on my experience to say none of us know enough to reach a conclusion? My experience and intuition clearly guide me AWAY from making wild guesses in an open forum. Others are not so burdened :confused: As for respect; for the dead or otherwise, you've mentioned that several times, but while I find the typical POA-level of post-accident disrespect unpleasant it's not much of a factor in my dislike of speculation. It's more in recognition of just how ill-informed we are and how futile and potentially harmful guessing can be.

Nauga,
who has made sausage before
 
RyanShort1 said:
And yet some people DO react faster - a lot faster.
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I often ask and wonder this after hearing about a fatal crash in an aviation emergency...how much of the end result is due to the above statement? How many pilots go down each year due to pilot incapacitation due to fear or inability to recognize the situation and react quick enough vs freezing up or just getting emotionally overwhelmed?

There is zero way to measure that and we all hope that when put in that situation we will be able to react calmly and keep it together, but I will never forget a friend in High School who accidentally hit the gas instead of the brake and screamed herself right into the wall at McDonalds. Car was smashed, she was fine...but froze in a panic at full throttle. I wonder how many people like her are in the sky?
 
i have a sign off in 2001 saying i had a complete competency check out and it was signed off ,name name, chief test pilot cirrus corp on his co business card .so i could rent one if i ever wanted to. it was 4 hours dual and 2 ground sr20 . never happened that i had a need or want to rent . over a few beverages he said this thing has a parachute for a reason and a few other things .never been in one since .i am sure they are fine aircraft and very safe.
and i did not watch the video and wont . i made the mistake of listening to the audio tape and it upset me very very much. i think this thread should go away. no good shall come of it . no one will ever know what really happened and why.
 
nauga said:
Not everyone. And I for one don't suggest sugar coating anything. I suggest recognizing our own ignorance of the circumstances surrounding most accidents beyond that provided by sources whose accuracy we usually deride, and 'analysis' performed by people not qualified to do so. Heck, not that long ago here in POA we had people (and that's plural) speculating on the cause of an accident based on a single photo. OF THE WRONG CRASH SITE. POA has also seen 'analysis' so flawed that it was not even remotely plausible, but some believed. I've seen a real damage caused by speculation on accidents (also plural) where I was a party to the investigation and the speculative causes were simply not possible...but they gained traction, and in at least one case took years to correct.

So I don't speculate, and I don't 'skip over' threads where it's happening. Has nothing to do with sugar coating (quite the opposite) nor respect for the dead, although I think getting the facts does happen to be more respectful than pulling causes out of thin air and popular media.

Nauga,
carpe data
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Spare us the sanctimonious spiel. You came into this thread to tell us you don't speculate? Amazing. You want a pat on the back?
 
hotprops said:
i have a sign off in 2001 saying i had a complete competency check out and it was signed off ,name name, chief test pilot cirrus corp on his co business card .so i could rent one if i ever wanted to. it was 4 hours dual and 2 ground sr20 . never happened that i had a need or want to rent . over a few beverages he said this thing has a parachute for a reason and a few other things .never been in one since .i am sure they are fine aircraft and very safe.
and i did not watch the video and wont . i made the mistake of listening to the audio tape and it upset me very very much. i think this thread should go away. no good shall come of it . no one will ever know what really happened and why.
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This is reality pal. If you can't handle it there are plenty of other threads out there.
 
hotprops said:
i have a sign off in 2001 saying i had a complete competency check out and it was signed off ,name name, chief test pilot cirrus corp on his co business card .so i could rent one if i ever wanted to. it was 4 hours dual and 2 ground sr20 . never happened that i had a need or want to rent . over a few beverages he said this thing has a parachute for a reason and a few other things .never been in one since .i am sure they are fine aircraft and very safe.
and i did not watch the video and wont . i made the mistake of listening to the audio tape and it upset me very very much. i think this thread should go away. no good shall come of it . no one will ever know what really happened and why.
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I recall when I started flying, way before the internet, in 1974 I would devour publications such as Flying magazine and thoroughly read the accident reports. Why? Because I didn't want something to bite me so I learned what not to do. Sticking your head in the sand is senseless unless you have no interest in flying safely. The majority of accidents are pilot error and the "chain" leading to the incident could have been broken many times usually, especially in this accident. For instance, maybe she should have had a CFI on board, or flown to a "slower" airport, and on and on. This isn't being disrespectful to the deceased at all.
 
GRG55 said:
3 to 5 seconds? I seriously doubt most humans would be able to actually process what just happened that fast. Let's remember that when something that "can't happen" (like a plane falling out of the sky right near you in a parking lot) actually does the human mind can take considerable time to accept that. The folks at Chernobyl were wandering around the wreckage of their nuclear plant looking at the debris unable to comprehend what had happened for hours after...because everything they knew told them this "couldn't possibly happen".
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This is very real. In my profession, everything degrading into a life or death situation at a moment's notice is common and expected. As a result I am mentally prepared for this all shift and in a vigilant state, thus there is little or no denial period before I switch to "handling it" stage.

Contrast this with Reno in 2011. After the Ghost went in 50-60 feet in front of us, it took me 15 minutes to realize I was repeatedly scrolling through my phone for "wife" instead of going to my wife's name in the contacts. When you're not mentally in the frame of mind to accept and process a disaster, strange things happen, even when you normally handle such issues on a regular basis. Bottom line is that I was in "no threat" mindset when I shouldn't have been (raised around motorsports, I knew better). But there I was, with my dad and our friends, enjoying the day and paying no thought to the "what will happen if." This left me way behind the 8-ball when the "what if" happened.
 
Newspaper quotes NTSB Investigator Tom Latson today saying they found no fuel at the crash site but with a slight caveat that both tanks were ruptured in the crash...
 
I wonder if it was possible to land at one of the five other smaller airports south of the field.
 
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