Familiar story, turns base after straight in calls 3 mile final.

[PaulS]

Watched this video, Centurian enters the pattern with a Cirrus calling straight in. Give it a watch if you're interested, was eerily similar to the twin 152 recent accident. If you turn base after someone calls a 3 mile final, you are the problem regardless of who is right or wrong previously.


"fast forward to 11:35 to skip all the other overly dramatic bs and get to where these guys clearly turned base when they absolutely should not have."

*Eman

 

[GMascelli]

I watched, they referenced that exact mid-air. I would have extended down-wind and let the cirrus land. Who’s right or who’s wrong does little good when you’re dead. Diffuse the issue and live to fly another day.

 

[PaulS]

I watched, they referenced that exact mid-air. I would have extended down-wind and let the cirrus land. Who’s right or who’s wrong does little good when you’re dead. Diffuse the issue and live to fly another day.

Exactly. Leave the emotions out of the equation.

 

[Salty]

If you turn base after someone calls a 3 mile final, you are the problem regardless of who is right or wrong previously.

Disagree a bit. If you do a a straight in without slowing (or speeding depending on circumstances) to fit into the traffic already in the pattern then, you are also the problem regardless of who is right or wrong.

Both actions put yourself in more danger. Both actions assume someone else will act to keep you safe.

 

[PaulS]

Disagree a bit. If you do a a straight in without slowing (or speeding depending on circumstances) to fit into the traffic already in the pattern then, you are also the problem regardless of who is right or wrong.

Both actions put yourself in more danger. Both actions assume someone else will act to keep you safe.

I think they were both racing to the field. The Centurian said he was doing 160 before as he got to the field, most likely the Cirrus was doing 160 too. They both wanted to be there first. BUT, as soon as the Cirrus called a 3 mile final, the Centurian should have extended instead of turning into him. It would have literally cost him a minute or two. He turned into and caused a conflict. Before that point they were probably both waiting to see how it played out. But as soon as that Centurian turned, he put he and his pilot passenger's life into the Cirrus guy's hands. That's a stupid thing to do, fortunately the Cirrus guy acted appropriately, as we've seen in other accidents, that doesn't always happen. To knowing turn into an oncoming airplane is reckless. Don't turn base if someone calls a 3 mile final.

 

[Dave Theisen]

The Cirrus was making the appropriate calls, they knew he was there and they turned in front of him because they had a “we’re right, he’s wrong” attitude. I like Flying Monkey’s videos, but that was some poor airmanship in my opinion.

 

[Salty]

I think they were both racing to the field. The Centurian said he was doing 160 before as he got to the field, most likely the Cirrus was doing 160 too. They both wanted to be there first. BUT, as soon as the Cirrus called a 3 mile final, the Centurian should have extended instead of turning into him. It would have literally cost him a minute or two. He turned into and caused a conflict. Before that point they were probably both waiting to see how it played out. But as soon as that Centurian turned, he put he and his pilot passenger's life into the Cirrus guy's hands. That's a stupid thing to do, fortunately the Cirrus guy acted appropriately, as we've seen in other accidents, that doesn't always happen. To knowing turn into an oncoming airplane is reckless. Don't turn base if someone calls a 3 mile final.

I mostly agree, but I don't agree with the catch all. If I call a 3 mile final in a cub, feel free to turn base in your centurion. We'll both be just fine.

 

[eman1200]

fast forward to 11:35 to skip all the other overly dramatic bs and get to where these guys clearly turned base when they absolutely should not have.

 

[dmspilot]

"Although we technically did have the right of way"

Well they technically didn't.

 

[DaleB]

Dad always said, right of way doesn’t mean a thing when you’re dead right.

 

[Bill]

The Cirrus was making the appropriate calls, they knew he was there and they turned in front of him because they had a “we’re right, he’s wrong” attitude. I like Flying Monkey’s videos, but that was some poor airmanship in my opinion.

It’s all about the clicks. Poor airmanship sells, look at Jerry Wagoner.

 

[asicer]

I think they were both racing to the field. The Centurian said he was doing 160 before as he got to the field, most likely the Cirrus was doing 160 too. They both wanted to be there first.

I looked at the ADS-B track for the Centurion. It was about 13nm out when it starting slowing from 160kts to 105kts crossing over the field. There was 6 minutes elapsed between those two points.

 

[kaiser]

Using the video alone, when the Centurion called short final in the base to final turn, it seemed to show them trying to scoot in front of the Cirrus. But if the Cirrus was really at 2 miles, he did not get cut off…

I find when entering Pilot controlled airports that giving way is often the fastest way to land. Yielding the field allows me to better predict where everyone will be, and usually puts just a touch of pressure on folks to not lollygag. The Cirrus could have easily told the Centurion to go ahead and might have gotten them to short approach it anyway (for courtesy), and maybe lost a few knots and a minute?

One other observation. Every time I’m in Pilot controlled world and a new aircraft chimes in, I give a fresh position report. It helps refresh the situation for anyone listening, even if it’s not in the pattern or a specific 3, 5, 10 mile checkpoint. Perhaps if the Centurion did that, the Cirrus driver could have done the math and adjusted at that time. It’s a team effort folks.

 

[frfly172]

Two stubborn pilots approaching the same runway,perfect scenario for an accident.

 

[Racerx]

He was right...until he wasn't.

Pretty ballsy to post the video. If I did something remotely questionable I'm certainly not posting it. But I guess that's the YouTube crowd.

 

[Racerx]

Using the video alone, when the Centurion called short final in the base to final turn, it seemed to show them trying to scoot in front of the Cirrus. But if the Cirrus was really at 2 miles, he did not get cut off…

I find when entering Pilot controlled airports that giving way is often the fastest way to land. Yielding the field allows me to better predict where everyone will be, and usually puts just a touch of pressure on folks to not lollygag. The Cirrus could have easily told the Centurion to go ahead and might have gotten them to short approach it anyway (for courtesy), and maybe lost a few knots and a minute?

One other observation. Every time I’m in Pilot controlled world and a new aircraft chimes in, I give a fresh position report. It helps refresh the situation for anyone listening, even if it’s not in the pattern or a specific 3, 5, 10 mile checkpoint. Perhaps if the Centurion did that, the Cirrus driver could have done the math and adjusted at that time. It’s a team effort folks.

Centurion could have said we're on downwind, think you could do some s turns so we don't have to extend downwind? Without saying it you're kind of calling what he did a dick move. And if he refuses then you extend downwind and everyone else listening knows he is too. Instead the cirrus driver subtly calls you out for corking him.

Unless this was all theater and done on purpose for YouTube clicks. Especially if they really referenced the midair in a similar scenario. I didn't watch the video, but it just seems a little too ironic.

 

[Salty]

When did slowing down on a three mile final become something to get upset about? The 210 might have made a bad choice, but the cirrus is an idiot too.

 

[Rgbeard]

So many missed opportunities to de-escalate this.

 

[Racerx]

but the cirrus is an idiot too.

I thought that went without saying.

 

[Jim K]

Just go ahead and add this to the long list of Jason Miller induced eye rolls. I really liked how mR. SaFeTY doesn't say a word when the the cirrus pilot said "straight-in, traffic permitting" like he has to put a quarter in the radio every time he broadcasts.

 

[luvflyin]

Just go ahead and add this to the long list of Jason Miller induced eye rolls. I really liked how mR. SaFeTY doesn't say a word when the the cirrus pilot said "straight-in, traffic permitting" like he has to put a quarter in the radio every time he broadcasts.

So I asked myself, WTF (who, not what) is a Jason Miller, (the ‘a’ was deliberate BTW.) What I’m not getting is, just how does a JM(Jason Miller) relate to this?

 

[Jim K]

So I asked myself, WTF (who, not what) is a Jason Miller, (the ‘a’ was deliberate BTW.) What I’m not getting is, just how does a JM(Jason Miller) relate to this?

Jason Miller is the pilot of the 210. He's a "celebrity cfi" who charges several hundred dollars per hour for his services, and will sell you an online ground school. Of course he has a youtube channel and a podcast.

I will credit him... when I had my windshield covered with oil, one of the things I remembered was him always harping on looking out the side of the windscreen to judge your flare height, and it certainly works when you have no forward visibility.

He used to produce some pretty good content but for the last year or so it's just been pretty useless; you have to send him money to see the good stuff. I'm a little surprised he's letting this out there as it reflects pretty badly on him. I've stopped following him because as I said the content is no longer valuable, but also he's made a few statements that have caused me to roll my eyes so hard it's painful.

 

[Velocity173]

The whole problem with “maneuver to land as to not disrupt the flow of other traffic” is that most pilots on final can’t visualize that. Trying to determine if your position on final will mix well with other aircraft is impossible to determine. No way of knowing how fast (minus ADS-B) the other aircraft are going or at what point they’ll turn base. That’s why at towered fields ATC makes the decision on who to put in front on final or who’s gonna extend downwind. If you leave it to pilots to determine sequencing, the vid above it what you get. Everyone whines “you cut me off.”

 

[Bill]

He was right...until he wasn't.

Pretty ballsy to post the video. If I did something remotely questionable I'm certainly not posting it. But I guess that's the YouTube crowd.

All about the clicks…

 

[William Pete Hodges]

I watched the video and I understand why one could conclude that this portion of the video might be a fabrication. The entire video appears to have been done in a professional manner, perhaps with a third party cameraman (not sure about this). It is clear that multiple cameras were used and the entire video was highly edited. It is also clear that the author does not think straight in approaches are acceptable practice.

The Centurion called intentions before entering mid field crosswind, then the Cirrus called straight in on final. At this point the Centurion was likely on crosswind or had just entered crosswind. The next call is the Cirrus calling 5-mile final while the Centurion had not yet entered downwind, or at least had not reported it until after the Cirrus entered a long final. IMHO the Cirrus has the priority and the Centurion should extend downwind. His argument that extended downwind is risky because of added gliding distance is invalid here for several reasons. 1) He just flew a long leg and his airplane is working perfectly, 2) other traffic is already on final and likely at a lower altitude. The Cirrus now calls 3-mile final. 3)This aircraft clearly has the runway made and has the right of way. If the Centurion needed the runway at this point he should have declared an urgency situation. (An airsick passenger could be a valid reason, but in that case an extended downwind with gentle turns might be a better option anyway.) 4) Turing from Downwind to Base after another aircraft has called 3-mile final is reckless and poor airmanship. The Cirrus (if he exists) took appropriate action to give way, expressing his displeasure on the radio.

My home airport is uncontrolled and often very busy with multiple airplanes in the pattern most of the time. Recently I was on downwind when a flight of 2 warbirds wanted to take the runway together. I told them to go ahead and I would give them room. What I didn’t know was they would line up and sit there on the numbers for a few minutes. I had extended my downwind then turned base to see them still there. By this time another airplane just entered downwind. I extended my base and turned final later then normal. I started S turns to give them more time. I was getting ready to abort when they started their takeoff run. I landed without incident and it was a really good landing.

Did I complain to them about all of this on the radio? No. Did I try to get them to hurry up? No. I gave them the runway when I could have asked them to wait. My only inconvenience was I didn't realize they would sit still on the runway numbers for so long. I was ready to abort and fall in line behind the other traffic already in the pattern. Would I have complained if I had done that? No. But I might have gone to the warbird group and asked why they sat stationary on the numbers for so long.

I was taught not to sit still on a runway. I was taught to stay at the hold short line and make any final adjustments there, while you can see the final traffic out of the side window. I realize I might be in the minority on this point, but I prefer to see that final is clear before starting a takeoff run, and I roll into the takeoff run from the hold short line. I was also taught that giving way to other aircraft is preferable to bumping into them, and that a little lost time is of no consequence in the long run,

 

[eman1200]

I hate to rewatch this garbage but you can immediately see and hear the hazardous attitudes come out of both of these guys from the get-go:

210's 1st call states 7 miles out (that's a new one to me)
cirrus states 5 miles out, straight in - in my mind, the 'conflict' ends right there, no doubt the 210 is number 2 to land
210 co-clown: oooh no, that's a bad idea
210 clown-in-charge: yeah, we're not gonna let him do that

whether you agree with a straight in or not, the 210 did just about everything wrong here. they clearly stated both in their words and actions they weren't putting up with someone coming straight in. total clown show.

 

[luvflyin]

Jason Miller is the pilot of the 210. He's a "celebrity cfi" who charges several hundred dollars per hour for his services, and will sell you an online ground school. Of course he has a youtube channel and a podcast.

I will credit him... when I had my windshield covered with oil, one of the things I remembered was him always harping on looking out the side of the windscreen to judge your flare height, and it certainly works when you have no forward visibility.

He used to produce some pretty good content but for the last year or so it's just been pretty useless; you have to send him money to see the good stuff. I'm a little surprised he's letting this out there as it reflects pretty badly on him. I've stopped following him because as I said the content is no longer valuable, but also he's made a few statements that have caused me to roll my eyes so hard it's painful.

Oh. I googled the name. There is another JM out there. Thought this was gonna go down some political rabbit hole. Guess I shoulda listened to the video first and found out who this JM is.

 

[Brad W]

I know these are both faster birds than a regular trainer....but a pattern is a pattern

I don't know the length for the runway they were operating, but at the 3,000 ft strip I learned on, downwind abeam the numbers is roughly 1 mile to touchdown in a trainer.....a bit more in a faster wide pattern Centurion but still. 3 miles is the gear up point over the runway for someone taking off remaining in the pattern

Was the Cirrus really 3 miles out when they turned base? If so that's like some trainer turning upwind to crosswind when they were turning base...enough room to fit another few planes into that pattern!

How close were they...really?
I've gotta believe that those two guys a) had ADSB position of that Cirrus and b) had mark 1 eyeball position on the "offending" Cirrus and c) probably had a good read of relative speeds. They were aware. It probably wasn't as close as all this drama makes it out to be.... They would not have made a danger close turn and cut the guy off. My guess, just typical fitting into a busy pattern.

I'm with Jason and Eric... I really don't like when folks flying grossly wide patterns...or doing things like straight ins.... make me fly far away from the runway once I'm already low. That's pointless and it's potentially a bit dangerous.
In my estimation...the Centurion guys were probably safe and in the clear... Cirrus guy was just dealing with what he'd already said he was planning to do...."traffic permitting" and all that.

 

[Racerx]

210's 1st call states 7 miles out (that's a new one to me)
cirrus states 5 miles out, straight in - in my mind, the 'conflict' ends right there, no doubt the 210 is number 2 to land
210 co-clown: oooh no, that's a bad idea
210 clown-in-charge: yeah, we're not gonna let him do that

Clown in charge actually said "yeah...he's probably not gonna do that".

Well, why wouldn't he? He just said he was going to after you already made your call.

 

[Racerx]

I watched the video and I understand why one could conclude that this portion of the video might be a fabrication. The entire video appears to have been done in a professional manner, perhaps with a third party cameraman (not sure about this). It is clear that multiple cameras were used and the entire video was highly edited. It is also clear that the author does not think straight in approaches are acceptable practice.

The Centurion called intentions before entering mid field crosswind, then the Cirrus called straight in on final. At this point the Centurion was likely on crosswind or had just entered crosswind. The next call is the Cirrus calling 5-mile final while the Centurion had not yet entered downwind, or at least had not reported it until after the Cirrus entered a long final. IMHO the Cirrus has the priority and the Centurion should extend downwind. His argument that extended downwind is risky because of added gliding distance is invalid here for several reasons. 1) He just flew a long leg and his airplane is working perfectly, 2) other traffic is already on final and likely at a lower altitude. The Cirrus now calls 3-mile final. 3)This aircraft clearly has the runway made and has the right of way. If the Centurion needed the runway at this point he should have declared an urgency situation. (An airsick passenger could be a valid reason, but in that case an extended downwind with gentle turns might be a better option anyway.) 4) Turing from Downwind to Base after another aircraft has called 3-mile final is reckless and poor airmanship. The Cirrus (if he exists) took appropriate action to give way, expressing his displeasure on the radio.

My home airport is uncontrolled and often very busy with multiple airplanes in the pattern most of the time. Recently I was on downwind when a flight of 2 warbirds wanted to take the runway together. I told them to go ahead and I would give them room. What I didn’t know was they would line up and sit there on the numbers for a few minutes. I had extended my downwind then turned base to see them still there. By this time another airplane just entered downwind. I extended my base and turned final later then normal. I started S turns to give them more time. I was getting ready to abort when they started their takeoff run. I landed without incident and it was a really good landing.

Did I complain to them about all of this on the radio? No. Did I try to get them to hurry up? No. I gave them the runway when I could have asked them to wait. My only inconvenience was I didn't realize they would sit still on the runway numbers for so long. I was ready to abort and fall in line behind the other traffic already in the pattern. Would I have complained if I had done that? No. But I might have gone to the warbird group and asked why they sat stationary on the numbers for so long.

I was taught not to sit still on a runway. I was taught to stay at the hold short line and make any final adjustments there, while you can see the final traffic out of the side window. I realize I might be in the minority on this point, but I prefer to see that final is clear before starting a takeoff run, and I roll into the takeoff run from the hold short line. I was also taught that giving way to other aircraft is preferable to bumping into them, and that a little lost time is of no consequence in the long run,

Right seat pilot who's YouTube channel this showed up on is a Hollywood cinematographer for his day job. Look through the titles (you don't have to watch them) to see he's had a few odd things happen during flight.

Front baggage came unlocked in flight and opened on his Cherokee Six.

Another time the door was locked but not latched. Put a jacket over the gap to keep some heat in and the jacket got sucked out. His wife was able to hold on, but could see the stabilator fluttering.

Im sure there's a few other moments, but watching someone else fly on YouTube has lost its appeal after incidents like that. Unless it's an eman vid of him walking, that's must watch influencer stuff!

 

[eman1200]

.... Unless it's an eman vid of him walking, that's must watch influencer stuff!

oh I got part II coming up soon, don't you worry!!

 

[bbchien]

A week ago I was doing three in the pattern at my home drone, 3350 ft. I called base turn. SWA captain (local) in his Saratoga pulled onto the runway and wasn't quick.
I turned final and called go-around, stepped right, and followed him with everything hanging out.

ON the ground I helped him push back......& he said "I am soo sorry".
I replied, "....'s OK" and with grin, "I needed practice anyway"
Looking at the logbook I hadn't done a go around in two years.
Both the Cirrus and Mr. Brennan have "room for improvement".

All is happy, nobody is dead. This is not an ego thing. This is a live to fly another day thing.

 

[asicer]

I know these are both faster birds than a regular trainer....but a pattern is a pattern

It's not particularly difficult to look these things up.

I don't know the length for the runway they were operating, but at the 3,000 ft strip I learned on...

Was the Cirrus really 3 miles out when they turned base? If so that's like some trainer turning upwind to crosswind when they were turning base...enough room to fit another few planes into that pattern! How close were they...really?

I've gotta believe that those two guys a) had ADSB position of that Cirrus and b) had mark 1 eyeball position on the "offending" Cirrus and c) probably had a good read of relative speeds.

 

[PaulS]

It's not particularly difficult to look these things up.
View attachment 111127


View attachment 111128


View attachment 111129

View attachment 111130

So the Cessna started his base turn abeam the numbers to cut the Cirrus off. What a d bag move. Being 2 miles instead of 3 and knowing that when you turn makes it even a bigger d bag move. The Cirrus guy probably was calling off his gps distance, which is usually to the center of the field. For a 3,000 foot runway not that big of a deal, but for a 2 mile runway, it's a 1 mile error. Even more reason not to turn base in front of a 3 mile final. Can you find the Cirrus adsb? Seems the Cirrus may not actually exist.

 

[asicer]

So the Cessna started his base turn abeam the numbers to cut the Cirrus off. What a d bag move. Being 2 miles instead of 3 and knowing that when you turn makes it even a bigger d bag move. The Cirrus guy probably was calling off his gps distance, which is usually to the center of the field. For a 3,000 foot runway not that big of a deal, but for a 2 mile runway, it's a 1 mile error. Even more reason not to turn base in front of a 3 mile final. Can you find the Cirrus adsb? Seems the Cirrus may not actually exist.

Actually, that first screencap was when the P210 was already on base. The Cirrus called short final but the videographer claims that it was really 2 miles out.

Getting the Cirrus ADSB track at this point in time would require a callsign, but the YouTube video redacted it and LiveATC only goes back 30 days (this flight was 2 months ago).

 

[Brad W]

well if the cirrus was 2 or 3 miles from the runway intersections they were very far from their base leg...er base circumference. Way South of that screen grab.

So based on that screen grab, the cessna was about 1.2 NM over the ground to touchdown at the point of his call for the base turn, and going 106 Kts initially

I'd guess the cirrus was twice the distance out that the cessna was, so the turn was probably right about in the middle.

I'm not trying to support cutting anyone off, but I doubt if it was really a cut off. Might have been a bit tight...and if it was I wouldn't have made the turn if it was. I can't say I blame cirrus guy for being annoyed that he had to slow down
but what would he have the guy in the pattern do....drag out really low and slow really far from the runway necessarily?
The cirrus had to slow down at some point anyway.
The cirrus was the one doing a legal but generally frowned upon maneuver
and my bet is the Cirrus guy had his speed up trying to expedite, at least partially to reduce how far out the cessna had to extend his base turn....so big deal, he had to slow down sooner.

Now, I wish Eric would have shown the roll-out and turn off. Did they expedite off the runway for Cirrus?
Did Mr Cirrus have to go around?
My guess is that it was edited out because there wasn't much drama or excitement there

 

[Anthem]

I think everyone is on this "straight in final call" as being the right call. I disagree. I agree that you always live for another day and dont take chances. And both were perhaps a bit too egomaniacal. However, in my opinion, i think planes established in pattern (especially vfr) should have right of way over straight in (and he even said - traffic permitting). There is a reason that they say they encourage entering patterns - standard left hand turns, etc etc.

otherwise - what you are saying is that everyone can bypass patterns, and just declare 5mi straight ins and have right of way. I get finals being "on final", but you cant call 3mi, 5mi, 10mi finals and assume everyone else gets out of your way. Asking people who spent the time to "get in to the pattern" and you deciding to do straight ins while others are in the pattern - imho is the pilot "cutting" in line. If its fine and empty - no problem. but if there are any planes in pattern - they are what I consider "established" and any straight in should in courtesy yield to them.

Otherwise, lets say 6 planes in pattern - obviously some in downwind, some on base, some on final - so someone coming straight in on 5 mi, 3 mi final forces people in the pattern to extend downwind for that guy because he doesnt want to enter the pattern. thats bs.

 

[Racerx]

I think everyone is on this "straight in final call" as being the right call. I disagree. I agree that you always live for another day and dont take chances. And both were perhaps a bit too egomaniacal. However, in my opinion, i think planes established in pattern (especially vfr) should have right of way over straight in (and he even said - traffic permitting). There is a reason that they say they encourage entering patterns - standard left hand turns, etc etc.

otherwise - what you are saying is that everyone can bypass patterns, and just declare 5mi straight ins and have right of way. I get finals being "on final", but you cant call 3mi, 5mi, 10mi finals and assume everyone else gets out of your way. Asking people who spent the time to "get in to the pattern" and you deciding to do straight ins while others are in the pattern - imho is the pilot "cutting" in line. If its fine and empty - no problem. but if there are any planes in pattern - they are what I consider "established" and any straight in should in courtesy yield to them.

Otherwise, lets say 6 planes in pattern - obviously some in downwind, some on base, some on final - so someone coming straight in on 5 mi, 3 mi final forces people in the pattern to extend downwind for that guy because he doesnt want to enter the pattern. thats bs.

I don't think anyone is saying the straight in Cirrus was in the right in any way. But if someone wants to step on some toes, I'm not about to have a ****ing match about it in the air. The celebrity cfi in the left seat could have said something on the radio. "Cirrus on straight in final, we're established downwind you think we can get in ahead so we don't have to extend downwind"?

Instead they went silent on ctaf and just assumed he probably wouldn't do what he said he was gonna do.

 

[Palmpilot]

...However, in my opinion, i think planes established in pattern (especially vfr) should have right of way over straight in...

That's not the way the regulations are currently written. And the same advisory circular that says (in paragraph 9.5) that straight-ins "should" communicate and coordinate "so as not to disrupt the flow of other aircraft" also says (in paragraph 11.11) that right-of-way is defined by § 91.113. It's like the FAA is trying to have it both ways, and the result is arguments on message boards, arguments on the advisory frequency, and in some cases, death.

...(and he even said - traffic permitting)

Sounds like he was offering to yield the right-of-way and then complained about it when it became necessary to do so. If so, he was contradicting himself.

There is a reason that they say they encourage entering patterns - standard left hand turns, etc etc.

otherwise - what you are saying is that everyone can bypass patterns, and just declare 5mi straight ins and have right of way.

Right-of-way is determined by where you are in relation to other traffic, not by what you declare on the radio.

I get finals being "on final", but you cant call 3mi, 5mi, 10mi finals and assume everyone else gets out of your way.

Considering all the differences of opinion, it's NEVER safe to ASSUME that other pilots are going to get out of your way, regardless of who actually has the right-of-way.

Asking people who spent the time to "get in to the pattern" and you deciding to do straight ins while others are in the pattern - imho is the pilot "cutting" in line. If its fine and empty - no problem. but if there are any planes in pattern - they are what I consider "established" and any straight in should in courtesy yield to them.

I'm all for courtesy, but the regulations don't automatically give right-of-way to traffic established in the pattern.

Otherwise, lets say 6 planes in pattern - obviously some in downwind, some on base, some on final - so someone coming straight in on 5 mi, 3 mi final forces people in the pattern to extend downwind for that guy because he doesnt want to enter the pattern. thats bs.

If you want aircraft that are already in the pattern to have the right-of-way over straight-ins, you should petition the FAA for a change in § 91.113.

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_90-66B_CHG_1_Editorial_Update.pdf

https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-...ject-group-ECFRe4c59b5f5506932/section-91.113

 

[Palmpilot]

...But if someone wants to step on some toes, I'm not about to have a ****ing match about it in the air....

That's good, because the advisory circular says this:

10.7 Disagreements. Do not correct other pilots on frequency (unless it is safety critical), particularly if you are aware you are correcting a student pilot. If you disagree with what another pilot is doing, operate your aircraft safely, communicate as necessary, clarify their intentions and, if you feel you must discuss operations with another pilot, wait until you are on the ground to have that discussion....

[Emphasis added]​