FAA Explains Requirements for Logging Instrument Approaches

Sounds about like what I was doing anyway.
 
Well crap... that's just one less thing we can argue about on a monthly basis here on POA now. Glad they clarified that issue though.
 
Well. Same old stuff we've been discussing but now clarification from the FAA.
 
Somedudeintn said:
Well crap... that's just one less thing we can argue about on a monthly basis here on POA now. Glad they clarified that issue though.
Click to expand...
Not sure it was here but I'm sure it was discussed quite a bit when it was published about two months ago.

But what makes you think this will stop the arguing? The FAA answered just about every logging PIC issue I've ever seen 35 years ago and it hasn't helped much, has it?
 
midlifeflyer said:
Not sure it was here but I'm sure it was discussed quite a bit when it was published about two months ago.

But what makes you think this will stop the arguing? The FAA answered just about every logging PIC issue I've ever seen 35 years ago and it hasn't helped much, has it?
Click to expand...


But do,will they update the Far to remove ambiguity or just expect people to research and find these letters?
 
How long does it take to do the approach? You have to to 6 every 6 mos is that something that you can do in one day if you had to?
 
You can do them all in one day. if one isn't consistently logging actual approaches (common for many Insturment private pilots) it's common to just go out one day and shoot a bunch of approaches in either actual or simulated.
 
Not to be contrary, but most of us figured out what approcahes we were gonna log for currency a log time ago. Absent a Fed in the right seat to make the determiniation on each approach, who cares? You know if you're proficienct and current, by the spirit and intent, and I suspect the FSDO folks have bigger fish to fry. . .
 
Sundancer said:
Not to be contrary, but most of us figured out what approaches we were gonna log for currency a log time ago. Absent a Fed in the right seat to make the determination on each approach, who cares? You know if you're proficient and current, by the spirit and intent, and I suspect the FSDO folks have bigger fish to fry. . .
Click to expand...

...yet people kept calling and writing to ask what could be logged and what couldn't. Thus the InFO.
 
Point taken. . .it does become silly at a point. Did you, inadvertantly, log an approach that didn't meet the full criteria in some way? Did you know? Does anyone else? Does anyone care? I think if you can nail an IPC, the Feds will be satisfied.
 
MotoFlier said:
How long does it take to do the approach? You have to to 6 every 6 mos is that something that you can do in one day if you had to?
Click to expand...

I did six ILSes in low stratus at Stockton (SCK) on one flight. The tower controller sounded like he was tired of me by the time I was through.
 
MotoFlier said:
How long does it take to do the approach? You have to to 6 every 6 mos is that something that you can do in one day if you had to?
Click to expand...

I went for a flight as safety pilot for another member just a week or so ago. We logged the necessary approaches and holding procedure etc. in about 2 hours, at 6 different airports. Granted this was in a fairly fast plane, but you could easily do 6 to one airport in even less time.
 
Wait! I think we can still argue this...

My understanding is this says if the currency is done in a sim the weather MUST be set AT DH or MDA. Does that mean every single approach will be to a missed? Any time you land you either busted the min alt or the weather was too high to count.

Too obscure an angle to argue? Maybe...But I know how we love to pick the nit.
 
Captain said:
Wait! I think we can still argue this...

My understanding is this says if the currency is done in a sim the weather MUST be set AT DH or MDA. Does that mean every single approach will be to a missed? Any time you land you either busted the min alt or the weather was too high to count.

Too obscure an angle to argue? Maybe...But I know how we love to pick the nit.
Click to expand...

From the FAA's bulletin in post#1:

"The FAA does not require the ceiling to be at MDA or DA/DH during a flight in IMC." [emphasis added]​
 
Palmpilot said:
From the FAA's bulletin in post#1:

"The FAA does not require the ceiling to be at MDA or DA/DH during a flight in IMC." [emphasis added]​
Click to expand...

'Sim'...I was referring to the parts about flight sim. Read that bit.
 
Palmpilot said:
From the FAA's bulletin in post#1:

"The FAA does not require the ceiling to be at MDA or DA/DH during a flight in IMC." [emphasis added]​
Click to expand...

You missed this part:

When conducted in an aircraft simulating instrument flight conditions, a flight simulator, a flight
training device, or an aviation training device, the simulated instrument meteorological conditions
(IMC) must continue to MDA or DA/DH
Click to expand...

To answer the question, IMC goes to MDA, you see the runway AT MDA, then land. You have an instant to either land or go around....legally :yes:

Also if there's an approach lighting system theoretically you could see that and drop below MDA.
 
Last edited:
MotoFlier said:
How long does it take to do the approach? You have to to 6 every 6 mos is that something that you can do in one day if you had to?
Click to expand...


Depending on how close they are, I would guess you could do 6 in 2-3 hours. I suppose if you just fly the same approach 6 times, it would be on the shorter side of that. It all depends on the length of the approach, your capabilities, and your plane's capabilities.
 
StinkBug said:
You missed this part:



To answer the question, IMC goes to MDA, you see the runway AT MDA, then land. You have an instant to either land or go around....legally :yes:

Also if there's an approach lighting system theoretically you could see that and drop below MDA.
Click to expand...

If you are IMC at DH then your instant is gone.


ALS is another can of worms so lets just stick with this for now...
 
BTW, sim operators typically set the ceiling just above (50') DH or MDA if they want a landing out of the approach. This prohibits that standard practice.
 
Captain said:
'Sim'...I was referring to the parts about flight sim. Read that bit.
Click to expand...

Seeing as though the missed is not determined by a ceiling, I don't see it as an issue.
 
Captain said:
If you are IMC at DH then your instant is gone.


ALS is another can of worms so lets just stick with this for now...
Click to expand...

Why? Ceiling 0 with 1800 rvr. See the lights and appropriate visuals... You're good for cat 1. That's imc weather in my book.
 
Is a letter like this binding on air carriers? If so, then I can see how it could be a problem. For the rest of us, it's guidance, not a regulation, so if something in it doesn't make sense for a particular training goal (e.g., landing out of an approach), I don't see the harm in deviating from it to the extent necessary.
 
Palmpilot said:
Is a letter like this binding on air carriers? If so, then I can see how it could be a problem. For the rest of us, it's guidance, not a regulation, so if something in it doesn't make sense for a particular training goal (e.g., landing out of an approach), I don't see the harm in deviating from it to the extent necessary.
Click to expand...
Generally as long as air carriers follow their approved training program they are covered for both IFR and night currency.
 
Kritchlow said:
Seeing as though the missed is not determined by a ceiling, I don't see it as an issue.
Click to expand...

"The hard deck on this hop will be 10,000 feet, there will be no engagement below that" - Jester

If the letter requires that the Simulated IMC conditions are set at DH (Decision Height) then when arriving at decision height the decision must be made by that time. What Captain already knows is that it's not practical (or realistic) to completely arrest the aircraft's descent at that point in space as we know that inertia will take the aircraft below DH before the throttles are raised and the pitch set to climb angle.
 
Jaybird180 said:
"The hard deck on this hop will be 10,000 feet, there will be no engagement below that" - Jester

If the letter requires that the Simulated IMC conditions are set at DH (Decision Height) then when arriving at decision height the decision must be made by that time. What Captain already knows is that it's not practical (or realistic) to completely arrest the aircraft's descent at that point in space as we know that inertia will take the aircraft below DH before the throttles are raised and the pitch set to climb angle.
Click to expand...

I'm just saying the DH is when a decision is made, not a ceiling requirement. The rabbit can easily penetrate clouds and you are fine to continue. I have done numerous cat 1 approach and landings when the ceiling was reported "0".
 
Not every ILS has a rabbit. And who knows how the sim is programed to display while IN the layer. My hunch is when in a layer you get nothing and when you pop OUT it displays whatever visibility is programmed...meaning at DH if your still in the set layer you won't see squat.
 
Palmpilot said:
There were earlier threads here and on the red board, both of which I missed, probably because I didn't know what a "SAFO" is. (I found out about it through an AOPA email that I received today.)



http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=86088



http://forums.aopa.org/showthread.php?p=1830679
Click to expand...



Captain said:
Wait! I think we can still argue this...



My understanding is this says if the currency is done in a sim the weather MUST be set AT DH or MDA. Does that mean every single approach will be to a missed? Any time you land you either busted the min alt or the weather was too high to count.



Too obscure an angle to argue? Maybe...But I know how we love to pick the nit.
Click to expand...



Captain said:
Not every ILS has a rabbit. And who knows how the sim is programed to display while IN the layer. My hunch is when in a layer you get nothing and when you pop OUT it displays whatever visibility is programmed...meaning at DH if your still in the set layer you won't see squat.
Click to expand...


Nobody has mentioned that *most* of the lower end sims do such a horrible job of flight dynamics that actually "landing" them is kinda useless anyway, and the practice doing the missed is probably something they're better at anyway.

Obviously if you're flying something expensive that has a market for good sims, toss the comment out the window.

But even the "high end" sims for GA use pretty much suck as landing training tools.
 
Jaybird180 said:
"The hard deck on this hop will be 10,000 feet, there will be no engagement below that" - Jester

If the letter requires that the Simulated IMC conditions are set at DH (Decision Height) then when arriving at decision height the decision must be made by that time. What Captain already knows is that it's not practical (or realistic) to completely arrest the aircraft's descent at that point in space as we know that inertia will take the aircraft below DH before the throttles are raised and the pitch set to climb angle.
Click to expand...

That is not a bust. Initiating the miss before DH is.

Bob Gardner
 
bobmrg said:
That is not a bust. Initiating the miss before DH is.

Bob Gardner
Click to expand...

Going missed before DH is not a bust. There are many reasons to abandon an approach prior to DH.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top