FAA Considerign Eliminationg Circling Approaches

Discussion in 'Hangar Talk' started by mscard88, Nov 19, 2017.

  1. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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  2. wsuffa

    wsuffa Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Can't say I disagree.
     
  3. paflyer

    paflyer Final Approach

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    They really want to unload all of their nav costs onto owners.
     
  4. sardonux

    sardonux Pre-Flight

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    Teterboro ILS Runway 6, circle to land Runway 1 ate a Learjet this year, let's not forget.
     
  5. AWACSEng

    AWACSEng Cleared for Takeoff

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    I have to say, the most uncomfortable I've ever been in an airplane has been during circling approaches. I can count on one hand how many I've done in actual conditions, but even the practice circles are unnecessary at best.
     
  6. Kritchlow

    Kritchlow Final Approach

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    Circling has the potential to be not good.

    We don't do it, but I've done it in the past and in the sim to minimum.
    Hated it.

    Not sure how useful it is today when a straight in can often be created with GPS.
     
  7. Greg Bockelman

    Greg Bockelman Administrator Management Council Member

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    No kidding. With VOR, NDB and RNAV approaches, once you paid for the initial equipment, the approaches were basically free. Now with GPS you have to pay an annual subscription fee to have up to date nav data. More pushing costs off on the consumer.
     
  8. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    No kidding. CTL is ops normal at TEB.

    But that one is an easy fix: they’ll just clear folks for the ILS and then change them to a visual to 1 when close enough.
     
  9. AWACSEng

    AWACSEng Cleared for Takeoff

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    I've only been to TEB once, and I'm sure the controllers are less than understanding when it comes to the intricacies of maneuvering ~500'AGL over congested areas, all for the sake of traffic flow, but safety should be the #1 priority. Too bad external factors override the PIC ability to say "unable".
     
  10. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    The thing about TEB is that they aren’t CTLs at MDA. Whether it’s ILS 19 circle to 24 or ILS 6 circle to 1, they clear you to circle at the FAF. It’s really a visual approach, but they use the ILS to keep you away from the EWR traffic flow
     
  11. AWACSEng

    AWACSEng Cleared for Takeoff

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    Ah, makes sense. IIRC, the one time I went there, we were on the visual for the whole approach, so it was planned/briefed/executed that way. I remember it being a busy approach, but not nearly as hairy as some of the other circles I've done. The worst one that comes to mind was at KPHF when they still had an NDB approach. We used to shoot the NDB 20 circle 25. We chose that because it was the worst setup our IPs could find within reasonable distance for training.
     
  12. Cpt_Kirk

    Cpt_Kirk En-Route

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    I enjoy the challenge of a circling approach and they were a regular occurrence at PDK. I also wouldn't be so quick to blame that Lear crash on the approach itself.

    It should be well within someone's capability.
     
  13. jordane93

    jordane93 Final Approach

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    You’d hate the Expressway Visual into LGA, River Visual into DCA, and VOR 13L into JFK
     
  14. Ghery

    Ghery Final Approach

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    Can't say I've ever flown one. I wouldn't miss them at all.
     
  15. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    That is true. The CTL had nothing to do with that. The ILS 6 CTL to 1 is really the equivalent of tower saying ‘enter left base for runway 1’
     
  16. AWACSEng

    AWACSEng Cleared for Takeoff

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    Done the Expressway Vis into LGA. And River Vis to DCA (although only as pax) and yes, they are uncomfortable, but something about those types of approaches seems more controlled and reasonable than a CTL in actual IMC, mainly because I'm not breaking out of the weather at 500'-800' AGL to then attempt a visual maneuver. At least with a published visual approach like you mentioned, I get ~3000' between me and the ground to pick up the visual cues and execute.
     
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  17. wsuffa

    wsuffa Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I've flown them for practice, and I've flown some that were labeled 'circle' but were that way due to the angle of approach. But I sure don't like them, and given the number of GPS approaches, I can't say I miss them.
     
  18. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    NO no! Those were a blast and fun to fly. More fun at JFK when you're going to 13L and then short final they asked if ya can accept 13R. Sureeee WTF not, scoot over and land. Actually did that twice, would've been 3 times but the FO was flying and didn't wanna , so we didn't.
     
  19. paflyer

    paflyer Final Approach

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    They should make ATC guys go for a ride.
     
  20. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Actually was a program to do that, familiarization rides. I don't know if they still have it though, and it was mostly airline flights.
     
  21. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

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    For the most part, I don't see a problem with it if it doesn't leave /A aircraft without a means of getting to all of the runways at a given airport. I would also hate to see the VOR/DME-A approach eliminated at WVI, because the remaining approaches might involve flying beyond gliding distance from land.

    The list of exceptions to the proposal is pretty long:

    "Each circling procedure would be evaluated against the following criteria: Is this the only instrument procedures at the airport?; If multiple procedures serve a single runway end, is this the one with the lowest circling minimums for that runway?; Would cancellation result in removal of circling minimums from all conventional navaid procedures at an airport?; Will removal eliminate lowest landing minimums to an individual runway?; Does this circling-only procedure exist because of high terrain or an obstacle that makes a straight-in procedure unfeasible or which would result in the straight-in minimums being higher than the circling minimums?; And, is this circling-only procedure at an airport where not all runway ends have a straight-in procedure, and does it have a final approach course not aligned within 45 degrees of a runway which has a straight-in procedure?"
     
  22. Shawn

    Shawn En-Route

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    At my home field due to terrain we only have an instrument approach from one direction counter to prevailing winds which can often mean landing with a significant tailwind. Would hate to see circling disappear.