Expired CFII-MEI

Discussion in 'Pilot Training' started by MD11Pilot, Jun 21, 2019.

  1. MD11Pilot

    MD11Pilot Line Up and Wait

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    I am in the process of reinstating my CFII-MEI and something struck me today as odd.

    1. No certificate that a pilot has expires except the CFI. As long as one does a Flight Review or an IPC, a check ride is never required for as long as the pilot flys. If CFI John Doe quits teaching but attends in person or online every two years a FIRC then they a good to teach after an extended time away from teaching BUT let the CFI expire then a check ride is required! Wouldn't it make more sense for the expired CFI to attend a FIRC and then actually teach? What information would a non teaching CFI learn at a FIRC that a returning CFI wouldn't learn?
    After almost 40 years of 121 flying and close to 100 check rides, it just seems odd to me that a CFI can attend in person or online a FIRC but never teach and they are good to go, but someone who let their CFI expire but takes an online FIRC must take a check ride. Would an expired CFI who desires to teach again not learn enough in the FIRC to be just as up to speed as someone who by virtue of attendance in a FIRC?

    I know it is just a windmill but just another of the oddities of the FAA
     
  2. farmrjohn

    farmrjohn Pre-Flight

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    Good question. That's the boat I'm in, and in the interim even spent three plus years as an FAA designee doing rating rides, check rides, line checks, route qualifications, and I (initial) O (operating) E (experience) training after rating rides. Now that they've kicked me out of the paying cockpit due to age I would consider adding back to the system, but I'm not really interested in jumping through hoops again to reinstate the instructor ratings.
     
  3. MD11Pilot

    MD11Pilot Line Up and Wait

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    Amen farmrjohn
    They cry they want us old guys to pass along knowledge but they won’t recognize that experience. Frustrating.

    Talked to one “by the book” DPE would said he looked forward to grilling me....uh nope.
     
  4. aftCG

    aftCG Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I just took a reinstatement ride. As you probably know, any CFI ride turns any other instructor rating back on. I'm a CFII but not IFR current and everything I'm flying is strictly VFR. The double I ride was the easiest but I decided to do the CFI ride.
    Been flying quite a bit, almost nothing with a nose wheel for two years. Figured it would be easy.

    The oral requires quite a bit of study, mainly because the PTS is gone and you now live and die by the ACS. When is the last time you diagrammed air space and taught it to an idiot? Made a VFR flight planning log? Taught eights on pylons? I made it through and you all sound like pros so you will too, but don't just crack the book 24 hours in advance and think it's easy.

    I had to find a C172 because the DPE wouldn't do it in my tail wheel plane. Took one 30 minute ride for insurance purposes and then booked the plane for my ride. It was a 172, how hard can it be? I've got 600-ish hours in them, much of it from the right seat.

    Long story just a bit shorter there was negative transference for any time spent in my own plane. I flew poorly by my own standards. I might have scraped by except for the last item which was an "engine failure" abeam the numbers. I did what I would do in real life - I went for the numbers. Lived.
    He expected me to run the flow/checklist and try to fix the plane. Again, real life I'm parking this thing and turning in the keys with a "you're welcome". It was my fault for not understanding what his expectation was.
    Result, I pink slipped my first ride.

    Hired the chief instructor at the FBO and took three flights with him. He was tough and left no stone unturned.

    Second ride went much better. No glaring mistakes and I didn't suck flying a 172 from the right side.

    I may not even teach much (got a day job already) but I'm glad I did it.
    I will NOT let my CFI expire again before I do
     
  5. unsafervguy

    unsafervguy Pattern Altitude

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    However, it’s been that way forever. That’s why I have done the online course every two years for almost 20 years. A few hours in front of the computer is a lot easier than retaking the ride.
     
  6. Ryanb

    Ryanb Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    And people think I’m crazy for questioning the regulations set for PPL holders.

    Yes... this is yet another idiosyncratic move by the FAA.
     
  7. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Pre-takeoff checklist

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  8. hindsight2020

    hindsight2020 En-Route

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    Yeah, I dealt with my own share of part 61 DPE effetry in college. In hindsight (<--:D never gets old) I wish I would have never pursued the CFI tickets. I would have got them by mil comp eventually at no expense to my employability, but that's water under the bridge at this point.

    The problem for folks is that gratuitous [to me] check failures like the one you describe, carry a bigger penalty for folks on the early rungs trying to get to the career incomes that retired folks already enjoyed. So playing the stupid games/stupid prizes that is part 61 checkrides carries much lower opportunity cost to the retired crowd than it does an actively working paid pilot. To be sure, there's plenty of checkride effetry in the heavy communities of military aviation (ask me how I know) but the DPE racket is a basket case of lack of standardization and laden with perverse incentives imo, from the vantage point of the mil equivalent of an LCA. I still remember the thrash that was June of 2016 and the ATP bank run. Good Lord what an embarrassing example of self-dealing that summer was. BWTFDIK :rolleyes: I digress.

    --break break--

    As someone who purposefully let his CFIs expire two months ago, I understand the principled aversion not to want to play the DPE game. Honestly, I wouldn't be anywhere near as upset if I had to go do a reinstatement ride at the FSDO, at least I'm getting what I paid for there. Alas, my FSDO pulled that BS stunt of auto-referring all airman actions to DPEs (including paper renewals, which I intended to do via mil IP qual), and I just cannot patronize that dereliction on the part of these civil servants. Guess what FSDO, we're all understaffed homey. Welcome to Shawshank... we're all innocent here.
     
  9. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Maybe they just figure someone who lets a CFI lapse when it is so easy to renew requires special training?

    Half kidding.
     
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  10. MD11Pilot

    MD11Pilot Line Up and Wait

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    Yep, it’s been that way forever and Doc Holiday, thanks for the childish retort.
    I let mine expire due to the lack of time and funds (no online back then) with a very ill child. I went into commuter and airline flying a little later and just never did it. Met with the head of the local FSDO and he told me that they are drooling over retired airline pilots teaching...but I still had to take a ride with a DPE. I am not worried about passing but just think that despite it being “the way it’s always been done” doesn’t make it right.
     
  11. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Pre-takeoff checklist

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    My reply wasn’t “childish”. The rules were in effect when you got your CFI, nothing has changed. You knowingly let it expire, and there were multiple ways you could have prevented that. You chose not too.

    Your attitude of feeling you shouldn’t be subjected to a reinstatement is prima donna.

    Want it back? There are ways to do that. You’re not special, and you are not above the regulations.
     
  12. MD11Pilot

    MD11Pilot Line Up and Wait

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    Never said I was. Read the messages before posting childish retorts.

    Multiple ways? Name them please...remember we are not talking about in the day of online FIRC's.
     
  13. mondtster

    mondtster En-Route

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    Off the top of my head I can think of at least two. Add a rating to your instructor certificate or so the reinstatement ride.
     
  14. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I can read, obviously that’s your weakness.

    Anyone who holds a CFI should know the regulations with regards to renewal and reinstatement.

    You could have gone to the FSDO at the time and talked with an ASI. There’s a good chance he could or would have renewed it for you. Secondly, one could add another Rating to your existing CFI to reinstate.

    As previously stated, and as fact, these rules have only changed slightly since you got your initial CFI. The fact you let it expire is on you, no one else. And you’re not so special that the rules shouldn’t apply to you.

    Right now you have 2 choices, a reinstatement ride with a DPE, or a reinstatement ride with the FAA. Yes, an ASI can do the reinstatement, but with current staffing it may be difficult to schedule.
     
  15. farmrjohn

    farmrjohn Pre-Flight

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    No, there is a third choice which is the one I'm following: don't bother to renew.
     
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  16. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Pre-takeoff checklist

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    That's certainly a choice for those not wishing to exercise the privilege any longer.
     
  17. tceq24443

    tceq24443 Pre-Flight

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    spoken like a true beaurocrat, well done...
     
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  18. Crashnburn

    Crashnburn Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Why? Because the FAA isn't happy until you're not happy. (I heard that somewhere. :))
     
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  19. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I agree with him to some extent. For a $99 lifetime fee and 16 hours keeping your computer running every two years, you can keep you CFI certificate forever. Yeah, the rule is probably a little more than is necessary for a CFI who has been flying in the interim, but that's how rules are. They cover the lowest common denominator. And CFI reinstatement rides have a history of being easy.
     
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  20. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Pre-takeoff checklist

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    To go a step further, the OP hasn't taught (CFI) in years. Many things have changed. This would be a good opportunity to get back up to speed, so perhaps a "grillin' by a good DPE would be beneficial, as well as a good flight check in a GA aircraft to review several maneuvers.

    The reinstatement is not a full check ride. The oral should be a good learning experience.
     
  21. ARFlyer

    ARFlyer En-Route

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    It’s now a special request up the chain for ASIs to do a checkride. DPEs pretty much rule the roost for everything but 135 and 709. It wouldn’t surprise me if they change the law to allow DPEs to do 709s or consolidate all 709s to one FAA office. 135 is slowly getting pushed onto check airman. Once that happens I’d bet we’re out of the flying business at the FSDO level.

    Like a Doc said it’s possible for an ASI to do it but you’ll most likely get told to contact a DPE.
     
  22. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Pre-takeoff checklist

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    DPE’s won’t be doing 709’s, take that to the bank.

    DPE’s doing 135 checks? No time soon either.

    As far as certification checks? (61)? Supervisors can approve those. Some office managers (AW types) won’t approve them, but that’s isolated.

    BTW, DPE’s don’t “rule anything”. They are designees and serve at the pleasure of the administrator.
     
  23. sarangan

    sarangan Line Up and Wait

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    There is some logic to that requirement, however little it may be. The CFI certificate is not about flying proficiency. Its about keeping up with the latest regulations, advisories, learning methodologies and cockpit technology. A CFI who did not fly for 25 years but took the refresher every 2 years would have had some opportunity to see how things have evolved. On the other hand, airplanes have not changed in 50+ years, so it makes sense that the pilot certificate does not expire.
     
  24. MD11Pilot

    MD11Pilot Line Up and Wait

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    Sarangan
    Thank you for your insight. I would agree with the every two year refresher keeping one up to speed but that would assume that one lived in a vacuum and didn’t keep up to speed on everyday aviation and that one had a computer when none existed. As one who has spent the last forty years taking once a year recurrent schools, home studies for work and twice a year check rides as well as pop up line checks and “teaching” new hires the ropes (some of whom had never flown anything very large) of making a 630,500 lb takeoff, I believe that sitting in front of a computer and reading about the motivations of why someone wants to fly, would and should qualify one to teach without taking a check ride but what do I know, apparently I am a crybaby. Now, if I had instructed in the military I could get a FSDO to use that as a basis for reinstatement without a ride but despite teaching (with never a failed student) for years as a civilian, that doesn’t count.
     
  25. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Did your airline recurrent go over the differences between the PTS and the new ACS? Did recurrent cover various part 61 and part 91 subjects that pertain to GA and GA flying that have changed? These are but a very few examples of what has changed since you let your CFI expire.

    If you think your MD11 flying qualifies you to go jump in a Cessna 150 with a new student and begin to teach them how to become a private pilot, then you are way behind the curve.

    And I'm not sure why you are reluctant to have a DPE give you a check ride. By your own admission you have taken multiple check rides through out your career, why would this be any different?
     
  26. dtuuri

    dtuuri En-Route

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    I'm gonna start my online course right now. Thanks for the bump to remind me. Paid American flyers four years ago and still reaping the bennies.:D
     
  27. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Oh my god, a ostentatious stump-the-chump DPE. Frankly, wasting time trying to run a debug checklist when you have a balky engine and a reachable runway is foolhardy. The first thing in that emergency checklist would be to pitch for best glide and turn toward a suitable landing field. Frankly, you likely had time for anything other than the abbreviated approach to landing check (PUT THE GEAR DOWN, etc...). Plenty of time to diagnose the problem once safely on the terra firma.
     
  28. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Pre-takeoff checklist

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    WTH is that rant about?? :confused:
     
  29. jordane93

    jordane93 Final Approach

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    Wrong thread or are you drunk already?;)
     
  30. MD11Pilot

    MD11Pilot Line Up and Wait

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    Again your lack of reading comprehension is astounding. Broad assumptions again. How do you know what I studied? How do you know what I flew when not flying professionally?
    Why wouldn’t the experience that I used as a CFII MEI not be useable or are you saying that all that knowledge just drops dead the second of expiration? I guess the years and hours flying GA while flying professionally don’t count.

    How long does it take to refresh oneself of the differences? I have read multiple times both and am very well acquainted with the differences. Why can a former military instructor (non current) get reinstated but a civilian cannot?

    Not afraid of a check ride but just saying it is arbitrary.

    Have a nice life.
     
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  31. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Pre-takeoff checklist

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    You made the quote below:

    You’ve made it clear you believe you are above taking a reinstatement ride. Well, if you want your CFI back, guess what?

    Get back to us if and when you do your reinstatement. And best of luck with it.
     
  32. Steegie

    Steegie Filing Flight Plan

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    Best thing for you to do is just suck it up, do the flight maneuvers and go home with your reinstatement.
     
  33. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Are you intentionally being inflammatory? Putting a smily on an insult doesn't make it suddenly OK. I was referring to MD's post #4.
     
  34. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Pre-takeoff checklist

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    You should have quoted post 4.

    New to Internet forums? ;)
     
  35. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    Maybe he’s been around POA long enou to know that often doesn’t help. ;)
     
  36. sarangan

    sarangan Line Up and Wait

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    FSDO has quite a bit of latitude on this. You may want to visit a FSDO office, chat with an inspector and see if they can reinstate your certificate. I suspect they will.
     
  37. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Bad advice. The FSDO or the ASI’s do not have the authority to circumvent regulations.

    The regulations are very clear on reinstatement.
     
  38. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

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    You never learn do you?
     
  39. jordane93

    jordane93 Final Approach

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    I think you need another beer.
     
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  40. dtuuri

    dtuuri En-Route

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    Ok, done. A bit over one day for $25.95. Worked it into my usual routine, hardly added any time at all. Opened a lesson and took the 5 or 6 question quiz an hour or so later when allowed by the timer. Studied as much as I needed (or not) in the meantime. Twelve lessons in all. Paperwork done online, no driving my car or mailing documents. I'm good for another two years.

    Repeat: American Flyers. Don't let your CFI cert. ever expire when renewal can't be any easier! ;)
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2019
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