Ethiopian Airlines Crash; Another 737 Max

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by Anymouse, Mar 10, 2019.

  1. Sluggo63

    Sluggo63 Line Up and Wait

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    Must be tough to be a test pilot when even you are kept in the dark about what the airplane has installed.

    “Therein lies the issue with the design change: Those pitch rates were never articulated to us,” said one test pilot, Matthew Menza.

    Mr. Menza said he looked at documentation he still had and did not see mention of the rate of movement on MCAS. “So they certainly didn’t mention anything about pitch rates to us,” he said, “and I certainly would’ve loved to have known.”​

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/11/business/boeing-faa-mcas.html
     
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  2. TCABM

    TCABM Cleared for Takeoff

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    From that same article, this justification doesn’t make sense to me:

    “The change to MCAS didn’t trigger an additional safety assessment because it did not affect the most critical phase of flight, considered to be higher cruise speeds,” an agency spokesman said. “At lower speeds, greater control movements are often necessary.”

    I’ve never considered cruise to be the most critical phase of flight, but then again, what do I know?
     
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  3. Bell206

    Bell206 Cleared for Takeoff

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    Curious. The quote above is contrary to other references (forums, media) that the original MCAS input was limited to .6 units and it was after further flight tests the recommendation was to increase the input to 2.5 units to maintain the required linear control forces. Some more technical articles state the recommendation was by the test pilots. Maybe the above test pilot was not involved in the MCAS side of things?
     
  4. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Final Approach

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    there is a "team" of test pilots...depends who is saying what. Some are Boeing pilots....some are FAA.

    Bottom line.....the Boeing pilots were surprised with what was given to them....and "settled" with what was there.
     
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  5. Bell206

    Bell206 Cleared for Takeoff

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    Just to clarify: the pitch rate discussions noted above were by Boeing test pilots during some of the initial Max test flights at Moses Lake by Boeing.

    But there is a definite "fence line" with the overall Max discussions: the "it was the aircraft side" vs "it was the crew side." And same with the Atlas accident. Two different accidents but same discussion: are the aircraft flying the pilots or are the pilots flying the aircraft? And where does that take the next generation of aircraft? Dumb down the aircraft or make the pilots smarter? It's impossible to make the perfect aircraft or pilot, so which way should the industry go?
     
  6. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Final Approach

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    From what I see....more automation....and less pilot.
     
  7. Hank S

    Hank S En-Route

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    "Welcome to the inaugural flight of Nomad airlines, offering the world's only non-stop service in fully automated, pilotless jet aircraft. Please sit back and enjoy your flight, secure in the knowledge that nothing can go wrong . . . go wrong . . . go wrong . . . "
     
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  8. Bell206

    Bell206 Cleared for Takeoff

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    It's being reported on several sites that Ethiopian Airlines had not incorporated the Boeing Operations Bulletin (which was part of the Nov 2018 EAD) into their Flight Operations Manual. This would imply that the updated stabilizer trim emergency procedures were not available to the 302 crew and possibly indicate that EA did not officially inform their MAX crews of the MCAS issues. So it's possible the 302 crew may have acted using personal information on the issue rather than any hardcopy emergency procedures. If this is accurate, I think EA has a lot more to answer for than Boeing does at this point.
     
  9. Tantalum

    Tantalum En-Route

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    The pilots have to be familiar with what they're flying. Automation is a good thing, just look at Airbus and how remarkably safe they've proven to be, despite being fully FBW

    Yes, bugs happen, but computers are far less likely to show up to work drunk, fatigued, stressed with life, etc. In the off chance that the computer has a glitch, or acts awry, however, this is where we must still have a trained and competent pilot who can intervene

    Funny, I was watching Amazon's new show The Tick (sort of a superhero spoof) and one of the digital ships had a bit of an emotional episode
     
  10. ElPaso Pilot

    ElPaso Pilot Cleared for Takeoff

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  11. Cooter

    Cooter Pattern Altitude

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    Since you posted your opinion publicly, I suppose you’d be willing to debate this?
    I’ll be monitoring PMs for your response.
     
  12. Tantalum

    Tantalum En-Route

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    sure! Preferably over a cold drink though and not somewhere that would violate our rules of conduct

    in actuality, what people choose to believe in and pray to is his or her own right. And if a passenger decides to start praying, then more power to them, maybe if there is some force out there it will give the pilot the strength to save lives

    what I have a hard time with, is the notion that the person whose sole responsibility is the safe outcome of the flight, would get to a position where they've effectively given up and have resorted to praying. I guess it's not the praying that bothers me, per se, but that this is what it has come to, feeling utterly powerless

    There is a subtle distinction there, it's not so much that they had a faith or belief, I take zero issue with that at all, it's that they were put in a position where they had to give up and put all their hopes in this faith or belief

    what's criminal to me is to completely give up when you have people depending on you for their life. If I'm ever bleeding out on the surgery table, I would hope the doctor works until I flatline as opposed to stopping at some point putting the tools down and giving up

    But I digress, offense to those with faith was not intended
     
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  13. Cooter

    Cooter Pattern Altitude

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    Fair enough, but I think you’ve assumed the part about giving up. You seem to think that prayer and reality are incompatible, that one necessarily excludes the other. That’s not the case. And even if he did give up, it may have been appropriate based on the circumstances. There is a point when even the ER docs make the call.

    Lastly, spaghetti monster has context. Its purpose is to offend.
     
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  14. TCABM

    TCABM Cleared for Takeoff

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    The psychology of death is a strange beast. Judging without experience is a difficult thing.
     
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  15. Tantalum

    Tantalum En-Route

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    I'll own that. Pardon

    True, but as humans we all make judgments, it's part of life and survival. For the better or worse we are always judging each other, whether subconsciously or not. Our best frame of reference as to what we would do in a given set of events is ourselves. Oh well
     
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  16. Eric Stoltz

    Eric Stoltz Line Up and Wait

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    I know for a fact that humans can pray AND fly at the same time. I've done it myself. I've asked the Great One to damn this action and that action as I've bounded down the runway. Exclaimed to the Creator how I'd never do that again now that It's actions saved me. Asked the Mighty Cloud demons to stop launching bolts of zillion volts at me. Even hollered, "Oh God am I awesome!" in a feeble attempt to thank the Big Guy for that sweetass landing. YMMV, but I'm a believer that microsecond prayers help, I'm alive to prove it.

    Now, back to the reality of ADSB and the assumed tinfoil hat requirements...
     
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  17. X3 Skier

    X3 Skier En-Route PoA Supporter

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    “I’m sorry Dave, I can’t do that.”

    Cheers
     
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  18. Hank S

    Hank S En-Route

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    I know people who have died, but they cannot share the experience with anyone. I have not died yet, so how can I get experience before I do die?
     
  19. Larry in TN

    Larry in TN Cleared for Takeoff

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  20. Tantalum

    Tantalum En-Route

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    Yes! As a data geek I love this website
     
  21. PeterNSteinmetz

    PeterNSteinmetz Line Up and Wait

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    I wonder if the relationship of the contributions of the pilots and Boeing to this will end up being adjudicated in court in a bunch of wrongful death lawsuits?
     
  22. Tantalum

    Tantalum En-Route

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    I don't want to speak for the poster, but I interpreted this to mean exactly that, that we don't know which is why passing judgment is such a strange beast
     
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  23. TCABM

    TCABM Cleared for Takeoff

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    Kind of proving the point. Making value decisions on the actions of others when you’ve never had that experience is, well, the definition of judgment.

    Continuing on the psychology of death, most of the work deals with the grieving process, but there is interesting material relevant to traumatic death events.

    Here’s a few off the top of my mind:

    Psychology today on Terror Management Theory
    https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/terror-management-theory

    Decent NatGeo article describing the gray zone of death
    https://www.nationalgeographic.com/...-death-brain-dead-body-consciousness-science/

    Don Piper has an interesting read.
    https://www.amazon.com/dp/0800759494/ref=cm_sw_em_r_mt_awdo_mr8TCb52HX6P1

    Last words of CVR transcripts can shed some light on the words of others in their final moments.
    http://planecrashinfo.com/lastwords.htm
     
  24. Tantalum

    Tantalum En-Route

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    Recently discovered this site.. it is interesting to see human behavior at the prospect of immediate death

    This is genuinely heart breaking "Amy, I love you." damn!
     
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  25. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

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    This thread's getting morbid! :eek2:
     
  26. Bill Jennings

    Bill Jennings Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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  27. Kenny Phillips

    Kenny Phillips Pattern Altitude

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    Not if emotion is involved. And attorneys always use emotion when presenting the facts!
     
  28. Piperonca

    Piperonca Pre-takeoff checklist

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    From "737 Driver" today at PPRuNe (last paragraph emphasis mine):

    I think what some of us are trying to say is that if you are in tune with your aircraft, it become apparent very quickly what kind of situation you are dealing with. Initial rotation is approximately 10 degrees. No matter what alarms are going off, if the aircraft rises into the air as it normally does then it is almost certain that you are not approaching a stall. Maintain takeoff power setting, continue rotation to 15 degrees and get some space between you and the ground. At some point later, according to preference, execute the Airspeed Unreliable procedures.

    On the other hand, if the aircraft acts mushy and hovers in ground effect, then respect the stick shaker. Gingerly apply full power, carefully manage the pitch, accelerate and climb.

    If a pilot puts the aircraft into the proper rotation attitude and can't tell the difference between these two situations within seconds, then, quite frankly, they are not qualified to be in that seat.

    Let me stress, however, the crew's actions in either of the MAX accidents are not necessarily because they were "bad" pilots. I do not have any personal experience with the training and operational cultures at either Ethiopian or Lion Air. If these crews were simply responding according to their training, then the scrutiny should be placed there.

    I strongly suspect that there is a mismatch between the proficiency standard implicit in the aircraft design and the actual training and experience level in the field. Sadly, I think Boeing, the airlines and the certificate authorities are all aware of this mismatch, but fail to either 1) insist the aircraft design be sufficiently fault tolerant, or 2) emphasize the need for better training and deeper experience.

     
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  29. Matthew

    Matthew Touchdown! Greaser!

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    ^^^

    I made a comment, somewhere, about aircraft control systems having to be designed to the lowest common denominator. That LCD seems to be the pilots - either their personal ability or their training. With the expansion of airlines and discount airlines around the world, that LCD may be dropping below the designed minimums. I expect we'll start seeing more accidents.
     
  30. Bell206

    Bell206 Cleared for Takeoff

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    Unfortunately, Boeing has zero say so in the "better training and deeper experience" side of things. I think if Boeing could, provided all manufacturers required the same, they would require training and experience levels way beyond the current levels. But only the airlines via the CAA has that authority as seen by the 361 hr SIC in the EA flight.

    As to the "fault tolerant" side, I believe every manufacturer would design such an aircraft, but who would buy it at that price?

    Bottonline, it's all about the money...from all sides for different reasons.
     
  31. Piperonca

    Piperonca Pre-takeoff checklist

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    An accident is the swiss cheese layers lining up, and don't forget the bread...
     
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  32. LongRoadBob

    LongRoadBob Cleared for Takeoff

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    But doing things on the cheap, make Swiss cheese with more holes than cheese. Much easier to line the holes up.
     
  33. Piperonca

    Piperonca Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Skimping on the bread, too.
     
  34. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

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  35. Bell206

    Bell206 Cleared for Takeoff

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    Even Airbus has not ruled out the MAX:
    TOULOUSE, France (Reuters) - Airbus sales chief Christian Scherer said it is selling longer-range versions of its A321, while signaling a shift away from chasing market share at any cost and predicting Boeing will emerge quickly from the grounding of its rival 737 MAX.
     
  36. Sluggo63

    Sluggo63 Line Up and Wait

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  37. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

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    So they don't like the plane?
     
  38. jesse

    jesse Administrator Management Council Member

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    I would have no fears flying on a Southwest 737 Max. Happy to do so the moment they’re returned to service.
     
  39. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Last edited: Apr 21, 2019
  40. ircphoenix

    ircphoenix En-Route

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    The reality is that the aircraft is going to be fine with an incredibly low accident and fatality rate. Other planes have gone through it too.

    But that doesn't mean any of this needed to have happened.

    My only prediction is that the MAX will be the last of the series and there might be some tightening up in the future in just how much airplanes can change and be considered the same plane.
     
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