Estate Planning (retry without trigger words)

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asicer

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asicer
I got an email from some non-government appointed official today that this is National Estate Planning Awareness Week (NEPAW) and that The-Organization-That-Shall-Not-Be-Named is offering a will-writing resource called some-innocuous-sounding-thing.

That got me to wondering, what do you guys expect will happen your airplane once you "shuffle off this mortal coil"? (e.g. probate vs avoiding probate)
 
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If I let AOPA write my will for me, I'm pretty sure it's getting donated to AOPA... man, am I generous or what?
 
So, if I didn't have a family, I could choose between donating my estate to an already cash overloaded group's off-shore accounts, or something like children's hospitals or cancer research? Yeah, that's a really tough call.

WTF. I don't think I posted on the "will you renew" page, but yeah, that thread changed my mind. Their goal isn't lobbying, it isn't raising membership, it's raising money.
 
Wow, derailed right out of the gate. I'm still genuinely interested in the question, so I'll re-edit the first sentence in post #1.
 
Oh. You wanted a serious answer? I own part of the airplane. Our operating agreement spells out exactly what happens if I die while I still own it. If I owned the whole thing, it would get put up for sale.

Assuming I didn't die in it.
 
asicer said:
Wow, derailed right out of the gate. I'm still genuinely interested in the question, so I'll re-edit the first sentence in post #1.
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:) Sorry, couldn't help it. I mean, if you mention crazy X people in a post about a chess game, figure people will talk about crazy X people.

If I had a plane, I'd specifically list it in whatever will I had, figuring that this would mean it's value could be determined by some other means than selling it. (Not a tax guy, but have been party to a few estate settlements where not agreeing on things made things more complicated.) And depending on the state where I lived, having it owned as a partnership or by a corporation might make things easier from a tax perspective. Maybe.

In no event would I donate it to crazy X people.
 
Put on the market and sold. The will would specify that the estate / executor would be charged with maintaining it (insurance, hangar fees, etc.) until it was sold. Would probably call for a broker to sell it so prospective buyers can be managed, paper work done properly, etc.

I do not want to have my children trying to figure out how to dispose of an airplane - make it as easy as possible.

Cash would be divided per rest of the assets.

Donate? No.

asicer said:
Wow, derailed right out of the gate.
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Yes, you're right. Hard to resist though. :)
 
WDD said:
Airplane? Mortal remains? Think of the POA version of "Viking Funeral"............
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We set the PoA server into a #3 washtub of chili and beer and set it on fire?
 
DaleB said:
I own part of the airplane. Our operating agreement spells out exactly what happens if I die while I still own it.
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Does that operating agreement include named beneficiaries? Or do you have some other means of your heirs avoiding probate? (I guess I should have also posed the probate question in post #1)
DaleB said:
Assuming I didn't die in it.
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That certainly would be cleaner, wouldn't it?
 
asicer said:
Does that operating agreement include named beneficiaries? Or do you have some other means of your heirs avoiding probate? (I guess I should have also posed the probate question in post #1)
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I'm one member of the LLC that owns the airplane itself. So it's my share of the LLC that gets sold, and that just rolls into the rest of my estate. The operating agreement specifies who gets first dibs (the other owners) before the share is offered outside the group.
 
Believing that the plane isn't the reason I've gone to meet my maker and it's still usable ... the family could either learn to fly it or sell it.
 
Will it to your chosen person. They can either sell it or keep it to fly. No different than any other asset.
 
asicer said:
I got an email from some non-government appointed official today that this is National Estate Planning Awareness Week (NEPAW) and that The-Organization-That-Shall-Not-Be-Named is offering a will-writing resource called some-innocuous-sounding-thing.

That got me to wondering, what do you guys expect will happen your airplane once you "shuffle off this mortal coil"? (e.g. probate vs avoiding probate)
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Here’s what I think I might know. An airplane does not have a Title or any kind of ‘deed’ of ownership. So at first glance, it would seem not subject to Probate. But the FAA does maintain some kind of record of registration wherein the registered owner would have to authorize transfer to a new owner. Assuming someone has your Power of Attorney, they could execute a transfer of ownership. Hopefully they do it in accordance with the terms of your will. Maybe specifying it’s distribution in a Living Trust would be the thing to do. Or creating a Single Asset Trust for it naming a Beneficiary. That would avoid Probate.
 
luvflyin said:
Here’s what I think I might know. An airplane does not have a Title or any kind of ‘deed’ of ownership. So at first glance, it would seem not subject to Probate. But the FAA does maintain some kind of record of registration wherein the registered owner would have to authorize transfer to a new owner. Assuming someone has your Power of Attorney, they could execute a transfer of ownership. Hopefully they do it in accordance with the terms of your will. Maybe specifying it’s distribution in a Living Trust would be the thing to do. Or creating a Single Asset Trust for it naming a Beneficiary. That would avoid Probate.
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A power of attorney ceases to mean anything when the grantor dies.

The FAA most certainly does have procedures for both estates and trusts both in terms of continuing to operate the aircraft by the estate and for the ultimate transfer.

https://www.faa.gov/licenses_certif...ft Registration and Recordation Processes.pdf

Trusts while avoiding some of the probate process aren't a panacea. If the estate ends up in debt, the stuff in the trust can be tied up as well.
 
I instructed my wife to call the broker we bought her from (the plane, not the wife) and get her sold asap; planes don't like to sit. If we both die at the same time...it was probably in the plane... although I suppose I should write those instructions down somewhere. I do have a document with the location of everything valuable and suggestions for disposing of it (retirement accounts, safe deposit box, guns, etc), but I've neglected to update our since we bought the plane.

I'm also ashamed to admit to not having a will. We got a good start on one a few years ago, but hit a wall on deciding what to do about the kids. Splitting them up vs keeping them together, her parents vs mine, etc. I suggested we buy them a boxcar in the woods, as that seemed to work out okay for those kids in the books.... The reality is at this point there's so many and our parents are so old they'll need to split up and go to their godparents. We just need to write it down. I think our estate will be worth enough that they won't be a financial burden, and I like all their godparents enough to trust them with them, although the one is a bit of a hypochondriac germophobe.

Yeah I need to get that done... thanks for the reminder, unnamed shadowy organization .
 
flyingron said:
A power of attorney ceases to mean anything when the grantor dies.

The FAA most certainly does have procedures for both estates and trusts both in terms of continuing to operate the aircraft by the estate and for the ultimate transfer.

https://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/aircraft_certification/aircraft_registry/media/Aircraft Registration and Recordation Processes.pdf

Trusts while avoiding some of the probate process aren't a panacea. If the estate ends up in debt, the stuff in the trust can be tied up as well.
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Thanks
 
Jim K said:
I instructed my wife to call the broker we bought her from (the plane, not the wife) and get her sold asap; planes don't like to sit. If we both die at the same time...it was probably in the plane... although I suppose I should write those instructions down somewhere. I do have a document with the location of everything valuable and suggestions for disposing of it (retirement accounts, safe deposit box, guns, etc), but I've neglected to update our since we bought the plane.

I'm also ashamed to admit to not having a will. We got a good start on one a few years ago, but hit a wall on deciding what to do about the kids. Splitting them up vs keeping them together, her parents vs mine, etc. I suggested we buy them a boxcar in the woods, as that seemed to work out okay for those kids in the books.... The reality is at this point there's so many and our parents are so old they'll need to split up and go to their godparents. We just need to write it down. I think our estate will be worth enough that they won't be a financial burden, and I like all their godparents enough to trust them with them, although the one is a bit of a hypochondriac germophobe.

Yeah I need to get that done... thanks for the reminder, unnamed shadowy organization .
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Grandparents wouldn't be the best choice either for our grandchildren. I told our son and daughter in law to decide on custody. She has a very large extended family although an only child herself, and it could get complicated if all didn't agree on how to handle custody. They picked one of her cousins, who I agreed was probably the best choice. And documented it. They have 3 children now. The cousin will have custody of all three. Ain't givin ya advice. Just sharing a possibility.
 
Assuming the plane and I don’t expire in the same flaming ball of molten aluminum, I expect my heirs to fly the plane regularly.

Of course, at the rate things are going, I’ll have to sell it soon to buy food....
 
Half Fast said:
Of course, at the rate things are going, I’ll have to sell it soon to buy food....
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I hope you are being factitious, but I fear there may some truth in that.

Back on topic:
Unless you have a will, the state will decide what happens to your assets, and there will be a LOT of angst with your children/family.
 
My airplane is going on the market as soon as it gets back from the shop. My only real worry is what happens to the tortoises. They will almost certainly outlive me.
 
WDD said:
I hope you are being factitious, but I fear there may some truth in that.

Back on topic:
Unless you have a will, the state will decide what happens to your assets, and there will be a LOT of angst with your children/family.
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No, the rules of intestate succession will be substituted for the will. Once that happens the same probate (or small estate in some states) procedures apply. The state can't capriciously "decide" what to do with the estate.
 
My wife has an undated signed bill of sale. She can deal with the plane as she wishes.
In normal times she'd transfer it to her name. However that seems to be taking 6 months now.
(Oh and of course we have wills)
 
isn't it pretty much like a car, boat, or house...any property? Not every single thing I own is spelled out in the will. If that were the case I'd be re-writing the thing all the time!

Basically most of my property goes to a trust to be established at the time of my death, and on to me heirs. I actually feel like we should re-visit our wills because it's been a while...and I'm not so sure the lawyer that did it was as up to speed on that area of law as would be ideal.

My wife and I had an interesting casual conversation while sitting on the front porch of a B&B sipping beer a few months back, with an Eldercare Lawyer. We talked mostly about my parents and their situation...but one takeaway I had from the talk was to make sure you work with an Eldercare Attorney. Pointed us to a resource to find a lawyer
I'm not looking at my notes but googling for it I'm pretty sure it was this
https://www.naela.org/
I know this doesn't fit the mold of a will for accidental death of a young and healthy person...but I'm thinking they are still probably going to be among the most knowledgeable of probate and all of that craziness....
 
flyingron said:
No, the rules of intestate succession will be substituted for the will. Once that happens the same probate (or small estate in some states) procedures apply. The state can't capriciously "decide" what to do with the estate.
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Yes - you are correct. I was trying to make the point that the existing state rules take over, not what you would have wanted.

It is those rules - “state decides” I was referring to. Didn’t mean to imply the state would arbitrarily do whatever some bureaucrat wanted to do that morning.
 
I have no dependents so it doesn't matter much.

I'd say sell my plane, my house, my car, cash out the bank accounts. Use the proceeds to buy the world's biggest cannon.
Load me up, light the fuse, and let her rip so I can go flying one last time...

For the avoidance of doubt about my wishes, my will is available in both writing and in pictures, and will be by my bedside when I clock-out.

upload_2022-10-20_11-15-44.png
 
asicer said:
…That got me to wondering, what do you guys expect will happen your airplane once you "shuffle off this mortal coil"?
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Depends if I perish in said flying machine or not.
If I don’t, in the event of my death, my partners get first right of refusal to buy my share otherwise the share is sold and the proceeds go to the estate.

How the estate distributes is dependent whether my wife is alive or not.
 
This pilot is no more! He has ceased to be! He's expired and gone to meet his maker! He's a stiff! Bereft of life, he rests in peace! If you hadn't grounded him, he'd be pushing up the daisies! His metabolic processes are now history! 'He's off the twig! He's kicked the bucket, He's shuffled off this mortal coil, run down the curtain, and joined the bleeding choir invisible!! THIS IS AN EX-PILOT!!
 
flyingron said:
The FAA most certainly does have procedures for both estates and trusts both in terms of continuing to operate the aircraft by the estate and for the ultimate transfer.

https://www.faa.gov/licenses_certif...ft Registration and Recordation Processes.pdf
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That's quite a long document. From a quick scan, looks like chapter 8 deals with transfers but I didn't see anything about continued operation. If the heirs are appropriately rated, can they fly the airplane while it's still registered to the decedent? And for how long?
 
asicer said:
That got me to wondering,
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The most important thing to wonder about is that whatever route you take, ensure that route meets the FAA requirements for the chain of ownership and evidence of ownership. The requirements down to the required signature are very specific and if not followed can cause your transfer/sale of the aircraft to be stuck in a loop until corrected. Here are two docs that spell out most of the details. If there is any doubt or complexity, a call to the Registration Branch is always recommended.
https://www.faa.gov/sites/faa.gov/f...aft_registry/aircraft_regn_forms/REGAR-94.pdf
https://www.faa.gov/sites/faa.gov/f...aft_registry/aircraft_regn_forms/REGAR-93.pdf
 
Yep, first of all the Aircraft Registry doesn't give a hoot about who flies the plane. But if you want to retitle to the estate's name, they have a procedure for that.
 
flyingron said:
Yep, first of all the Aircraft Registry doesn't give a hoot about who flies the plane. But if you want to retitle to the estate's name, they have a procedure for that.
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I don't suppose the heirs can keep renewing the registration every 3 years in the deceased's name and fly it forever that way, can they?
 
Tom Wells said:
I have no dependents so it doesn't matter much.

I'd say sell my plane, my house, my car, cash out the bank accounts. Use the proceeds to buy the world's biggest cannon.
Load me up, light the fuse, and let her rip so I can go flying one last time...

For the avoidance of doubt about my wishes, my will is available in both writing and in pictures, and will be by my bedside when I clock-out.

View attachment 111589
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What would happen to the proceeds from ticket sales?
 
asicer said:
I don't suppose the heirs can keep renewing the registration every 3 years in the deceased's name and fly it forever that way, can they?
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Not really. There are time limits listed in Part 47 that cover what to do when the registration holder dies. Regardless, its not recommended. When the rules changed to 3 year registration there were a number of people caught in this predicament with the holder dead and no cheap easy way to get registration corrected.
 
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asicer said:
I don't suppose the heirs can keep renewing the registration every 3 years in the deceased's name and fly it forever that way, can they?
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I don't see why not, as long as the state laws are followed with regard to the operation of the estate. I don't know what state you are in, but there's no time limits on estates here in NC. You can keep them open for some time as long as nobody (heirs, creditors) forces the issue.
 
Most of us are not going to fly until we die. Most of us will get sick and spend years shut in at home or in assisted living. Our families won't want to do anything while we are still alive, so our planes will sit for years unflown.
 
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Tom Wells said:
I have no dependents so it doesn't matter much.

I'd say sell my plane, my house, my car, cash out the bank accounts. Use the proceeds to buy the world's biggest cannon.
Load me up, light the fuse, and let her rip so I can go flying one last time...

For the avoidance of doubt about my wishes, my will is available in both writing and in pictures, and will be by my bedside when I clock-out.

View attachment 111589
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I do shoot people's ashes up in a bowling ball mortar.
So far free of cost. Have shot off a hunter friend and three relatives so far.
All the living relatives are pleased with the results.
4 oz of FG Black powder and a 15 lb ball with fInger holes bored out larger for ashes,gets one a goodly way to the heavens.
Balls are left in a grassy, brushy area of prairie where they land.
Quite unique way to go.
My kids have instructions to send me off likewise.
Wish I has a video to post on this I pad . It is such a Loud boom and concusion it sets off car alarms.
 
Ed Haywood said:
Most of us are not going to be flying one day and die the next. Most of us will get sick and spend years shut in at home or in assisted living. Our families won't want to do anything while we are still alive, so our planes will sit for years unflown.
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Isn't avoiding that situation partially the purpose of estate planning?
 
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