Escape underwater oxygen bottle argument

[Rebel Lord]

So me and another pilot are in a pretty heated debate about whether having a small scuba tank for each passenger in the event of a water ditching. We are talking about a piper Cherokee. He wants to buy each passenger position a small scuba tank to help escape.

im trying to convince him that it’s not necessary at all and would in the unlikely event of water ditching would only hinder.

I need some outside opinions because we are going in circles. Thanks

 

[Rebel Lord]

I would also want to add the main reason he thinks he needs it is the situation if you remember from AOPA safety institutes video where the pilot landed his float plane with the gears down and flipped and his son was tragically killed as his main argument.

 

[NHWannabe]

So me and another pilot are in a pretty heated debate about whether having a small scuba tank for each passenger in the event of a water ditching. We are talking about a piper Cherokee. He wants to buy each passenger position a small scuba tank to help escape.

im trying to convince him that it’s not necessary at all and would in the unlikely event of water ditching would only hinder.

I need some outside opinions because we are going in circles. Thanks

Is he talking about a pony tank?

 

[midwestpa24]

So me and another pilot are in a pretty heated debate about whether having a small scuba tank for each passenger in the event of a water ditching. We are talking about a piper Cherokee. He wants to buy each passenger position a small scuba tank to help escape.

im trying to convince him that it’s not necessary at all and would in the unlikely event of water ditching would only hinder.

I need some outside opinions because we are going in circles. Thanks

Are he and all passengers going to stay trained and proficient in donning the scuba equipment while hanging upside down underwater and in a state of panic?

 

[bflynn]

I'm with you - I don't see this being a large enough risk to warrant the tank, plus most passengers probably cannot figure it out. I'm not opposed to adding one to a worn vest or mounted somewhere that is easily accessible so that you can go back and get a raft, but expecting that people who aren't trained in scuba would be able to use the system under pressure is unrealistic. There is also additional maintenance related to regularly checking air levels, refilling bottles and getting them hydroed on schedule.

 

[Rebel Lord]

Is he talking about a pony tank?

like this

 

[Bell206]

I need some outside opinions because we are going in circles. Thanks

Without proper training they 're useless. Now mandate water egress training (dunk school) and you might save a life. Out of 600 pilots at the GOM helicopter day job only several carried bail bottles. Even oil companies put proper pax flight briefing and dunk school above the bail bottles.

 

[Rebel Lord]

I'm with you - I don't see this being a large enough risk to warrant the tank, plus most passengers probably cannot figure it out. I'm not opposed to adding one to a worn vest or mounted somewhere that is easily accessible so that you can go back and get a raft, but expecting that people who aren't trained in scuba would be able to use the system under pressure is unrealistic. There is also additional maintenance related to regularly checking air levels, refilling bottles and getting them hydroed on schedule.

well granted everyone who flys with him including myself have gone through helicopter emergency water egress training but not with tanks

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Yup. Sometimes you flip. Sometimes people don't get out. It has happened.
OTOH, I would worry about getting hit by a flying SCUBA tank as the airplane flipped - potential for a lot of damage / injury / death if they are not well secured.
OTOOH, you wouldn't want the tanks secured somewhere beyond your fingertips - if you are too panicked to get out the door, you will be too panicked to retrieve an air bottle.
SCUBA tanks are not oxygen bottles.

 

[kyleb]

So me and another pilot are in a pretty heated debate about whether having a small scuba tank for each passenger in the event of a water ditching. We are talking about a piper Cherokee. He wants to buy each passenger position a small scuba tank to help escape.

Not sure I'd want to partner with someone who was adamant about something as off-the-wall as that idea.

 

[midwestpa24]

The better, more prudent, idea would be to not fly outside of gliding distance of land. Then the odds of you winding up ditching in a lake or river versus an off airport landing are much lower, and the odds of drowning even lower.

I have to say if your biggest fear when flying is drowning, you may be doing something wrong. Unless you are in the Navy.

 

[Morgan3820]

So me and another pilot are in a pretty heated debate about whether having a small scuba tank for each passenger in the event of a water ditching. We are talking about a piper Cherokee. He wants to buy each passenger position a small scuba tank to help escape.

im trying to convince him that it’s not necessary at all and would in the unlikely event of water ditching would only hinder.

I need some outside opinions because we are going in circles. Thanks

I think that I would not partner with him. Sounds like a loose hinge. After this, what next? Compression checks before each flight? I think he has done you a favor by showing his true colors before the checks were written.

 

[Rebel Lord]

I think that I would not partner with him. Sounds like a loose hinge. After this, what next? Compression checks before each flight? I think he has done you a favor by showing his true colors before the checks were written.

Probably should mention he’s my dad lol

 

[Morgan3820]

Probably should mention he’s my dad lol

Oh, yeah. Well then let him go buy them. Smile and say “I love you Dad”.
Keep them in a box in the hanger. You aren’t going to win if he has his mind made up

 

[Katamarino]

I carry one on my over water legs, strapped to the seat. I've carried out ditching training. Hoping I'll never need to use the bottle, or indeed the training!

 

[Warlock]

Pretty much shown over the years those with dunker training and situational awareness of where you are in the aircraft is the most important factor in a water landing with the aircraft inverted or sinking. First time I flew a body home in a UH-1 was an Army Aviator involved in a water landing who never made it out of the seat...

 

[Juliet Hotel]

If getting out of the plane after a water ditching is his concern, I'd advise him to forget about the air tank and require all on board to wear good quality helmets at all times. If you spend any amount of time looking at fatals that were preceded by a loss of engine power, you quickly learn that very often, the crash itself was not fatal, but rather the post crash fire (when on land) or post crash sinking (in water) is what got them. And in many of those cases, the evidence shows the deceased did not have injuries which would have prevented egress before fire or sinking thus suggesting the deceased did not remain conscious during the event. Keeping yourself alive in an off airport landing is highly dependent on keeping yourself awake long enough to get out of the plane.

When I used to spend all day flying banners low over water, I never took off without an inflatable life vest on and without my helmet on my head. If I was going to go in, I was going to stay awake doing it.

 

[Timbeck2]

What was that gadget James Bond used to breathe underwater? I think Q said it lasted for two minutes and was smaller than the palm of your hand. Get a couple of those.

 

[Zeldman]

I have to say if your biggest fear when flying is drowning, you may be doing something wrong.

Thanks.!! That got my day going.!!

I did a dunk school several years ago in Alaska. To me the biggest surprise was the sudden immersion in ice cold water. I wasn't expecting the momentary freeze up. But I did get out.

 

[Witmo]

What was that gadget James Bond used to breathe underwater? I think Q said it lasted for two minutes and was smaller than the palm of your hand. Get a couple of those.

You already probably have several--they're called tires and they hold air!

 

[Timbeck2]

You already probably have several--they're called tires and they hold air!

I remember that scene too but wasn't thinking of the Roger Moore movie, I was thinking of the real James Bond movie, Thunderball.

Ah...here it is*

*entirely fictitious, don't think I'm serious.

 

[Llewtrah381]

I fly a Cherokee and have a friend who has a Dakota and flies it to his vacation home in the Bahamas several times a year. We talked about this kind of stuff and his input was that Cherokees do better in water landing than one would think - and better than high-wings. Even the fixed-gear ones tend to mush in rather than flip. And they’re so full of air they float way longer than one would think - at least a few minutes, which is plenty of time to egress. That’s his input and I haven’t seen formal studies to back it up but it makes sense.

The one thing he did say, and I think I’ve heard elsewhere as well, is if it’s not ON YOU when the plane hits the water, don’t expect to have it when you’re out of the plane. That’s why, for the limited time I personally spend over water (even within glide range, typically), I wear an inflatable life vest rather than just have it within reach. I went with the manual type rather than the auto-inflate, so it doesn’t inflate in the plane and get cut on the way out.

Bang for the buck in a Cherokee or other low-wing, that seems better than the scuba tanks. But if you go that route, I’d seriously consider having them on you when feet-wet, as others have noted.

 

[Tantalum]

I have to say if your biggest fear when flying is drowning

Yup. I'm "that guy" who flies to AVX at 12,5 to just about make it back to land gliding, or, just fly the twin out there.

"...but it's just like flying over the desert!"
-um, no it's not. In the desert they'll easily see the wreckage. If you can survive the elements for a few hours and you survived the crash there's a good change you'll make it. How long can you tread water, even in relatively warm 67-75* water before hypothermia? How likely is it that they'll spot your tiny head bobbing up and down, possible a few miles from where they think you are. If you ditch in the water without proper equipment (vest, raft, PLB) you are going to die, plain and simple, whether or not you have a little O2 bottle.

 

[Tantalum]

who never made it out of the seat

I carry one of those little hammers with the knives on them. One is in the car within arm's reach and one comes with me in the plane. If you get tangled in the belt you can cut your way out. Can't open the door? Smash it. Granted, if you are upside down under water in the dark you have to really remain mentally calm and collected to get out. Not sure I'd be able to if I'm being frank. Which is why I limit SE over water ops and so far have never flown out of glide range at night over water.

 

[Velocity173]

Well do you fly over open water on a regular basis? I might think about that if you did but just like B206 stated, without training, it probably won’t help. Remember the helicopter tour accident on the Hudson? Without proper training, pax are just going to panic. Even with proper training, I know people that had panicked in dunker training. Friend said it was the worst experience of his life.

I try and tailor safety measures on odds. If I flew over the GoM on a regular basis I’d have a bottle and flotation devices. If I were in Alaska, I’d have a PLB and enough food to last for days. But with the flying I do, a cell phone, ELT and a first aid kit are all I require.

If your partner wants a heeds bottle, how about helmets and nomex flight suits for everyone?

 

[GaryM]

So me and another pilot are in a pretty heated debate about whether having a small scuba tank for each passenger in the event of a water ditching. We are talking about a piper Cherokee. He wants to buy each passenger position a small scuba tank to help escape.

im trying to convince him that it’s not necessary at all and would in the unlikely event of water ditching would only hinder.

I need some outside opinions because we are going in circles. Thanks

There is nothing to prevent him from buying his own escape bottle, if it makes him feel better.

My own risk mitigation for the very small amount of overwater flying I do in a two-door aircraft is to never do it with anyone in the back seat. I figure it will be hard enough for front seat passengers to exit from a water landing, and I don't want responsibility for a back seat passenger trying to get out.

If you take that approach, and your partner buys a bottle, and you don't want one, your problem is solved.

 

[jsstevens]

Well do you fly over open water on a regular basis? I might think about that if you did but just like B206 stated, without training, it probably won’t help. Remember the helicopter tour accident on the Hudson? Without proper training, pax are just going to panic. Even with proper training, I know people that had panicked in dunker training. Friend said it was the worst experience of his life.

I try and tailor safety measures on odds. If I flew over the GoM on a regular basis I’d have a bottle and flotation devices. If I were in Alaska, I’d have a PLB and enough food to last for days. But with the flying I do, a cell phone, ELT and a first aid kit are all I require.

If your partner wants a heeds bottle, how about helmets and nomex flight suits for everyone?

To be excruciatingly correct, the passengers were belted in with harnesses that they couldn't reach the releases on. Whether they panicked or not was not going to affect the outcome. That said, they likely panicked.

 

[kyleb]

My friend who did ditch his Cherokee reported no difficulty in getting out and that the airplane floated for a long time before it sank. I think 60+ gallons of empty fuel tanks add buoyancy. ;-)

 

[murphey]

Well do you fly over open water on a regular basis? I might think about that if you did but just like B206 stated, without training, it probably won’t help. Remember the helicopter tour accident on the Hudson? Without proper training, pax are just going to panic. Even with proper training, I know people that had panicked in dunker training. Friend said it was the worst experience of his life.

I try and tailor safety measures on odds. If I flew over the GoM on a regular basis I’d have a bottle and flotation devices. If I were in Alaska, I’d have a PLB and enough food to last for days. But with the flying I do, a cell phone, ELT and a first aid kit are all I require.

If your partner wants a heeds bottle, how about helmets and nomex flight suits for everyone?

Oh pleeeeze....we have CAP pilots who wear nomex suits and gloves to fly our little 182s (and think they're really spiffy) and if they go down over water, the local boaters will pick them up and hand them a beer after drying off. But they also wear nylon or poly underwear. I tried to explain melt and flashpoint temps to them one day....

 

[Llewtrah381]

If I were in Alaska, I’d have a PLB and enough food to last for days.

The PLB is actually a great idea, especially for anyone doing frequent trips over water. An ELT on a sunken airplane, especially one that landed in the water too softly to trigger it, won’t do a bit of good. The PLBs are under $300, don’t require a subscription, easily fit in a pants or coat pocket, and are designed for water, such as this one:



We even gave one to our son who tends to hike on his own in the Rockies. Regardless of what’s decided re the oxygen, etc., this is a good addition.

 

[Maxnr]

Some years ago, I flew 135 for the energy industry in the Gulf of Mexico. Good training with the raft, mae wests and trips in the dunker on a regular basis. Some oil & gas clients insisted that their people go through the same deal. Another biggie was zero defects flight following. That means position reports at 15 minute interval and sat com tracking.
There was a time when I had to operate NEAR not IN a hydrogen sulfide gas area. That means we were primary for evac ing folks off their structure. Boats were no go because H2S gas is heavy and hugs the surface. You know it as sewer gas and will knock you out. Then kill you. We had a football sized compressed air tank w/ mask in a bracket between the seat and cockpit door. Good for 5 minutes other wise same as the rig firemen use. Passengers and aircrews all had a H2S card in their pocket for using the breathers. No beards allowed. I knew we needed haz mat certs for carrying the compressed air. I was surprised when the FSDO also required an MSDS for air.
It came to pass that our night crew borrowed my S 76 for an O dark early evac. It stunk highly of rotten eggs next morning and my spool of white detector tape was turned jet black. The gas is flamable and you have no engine control. The gas is sucked in and the engine runs amok. A bit off topic but kinda related. My room mate lost an engine on take off from a structure and slammed the water from 100 feet & zero airspeed. It flipped and he was upside down under water. Midday. He was surprised that it was so dark, but training got him out OK.

 

[IK04]

I've been through both military and civilian dunker training with and without HEEDS and can perform all those tasks from memory. I would definitely survive as long as I remain conscious. The HEEDS bottle must be attached to your body to have any chance of being available after ditching.

Passengers without training might be able to use the bottle, but consciousness, calmness and proper egress would have to occur first.

The PIC could assist the pax if he was competent with all the above and could see anything.

Not very good odds for success without lots of mitigation of all these risks. It would be easier to switch to a helicopter.

 

[Maxnr]

There was a ditching in the Hudson river some years back. An S-76 was departing from the Wall St heliport w/ a load of VIPs. Take off was over the river at low/zero altitude. As I recall, no one survived the dual engine failure. No rafts, no PFDs. Investigators were stumped until they were directed to the G.O.M and were clued in by we, the launch customers for the type.

 

[Velocity173]

Oh pleeeeze....we have CAP pilots who wear nomex suits and gloves to fly our little 182s (and think they're really spiffy) and if they go down over water, the local boaters will pick them up and hand them a beer after drying off. But they also wear nylon or poly underwear. I tried to explain melt and flashpoint temps to them one day....

Well If it’s like a work uniform I don’t mind. I’m required to wear a helmet, gloves, flight suit and leather boots for work. Do I think it’s an outfit that’s warranted based on the level of risk? Not really but it’s work so I wear it.

Now private flying, I dress for comfort. But, if someone is extremely safety conscious or they’re wanna be military pilots, I don’t care if they wear that stuff. Just curious in the OP’s situation where his partner draws the line in his risk assessment process.

 

[thebruce]

I'm "that guy" who flies to AVX at 12,5 to just about make it back to land gliding

I think I saw you on my Stratux last time I went out there....

 

[Tantalum]

I think 60+ gallons of empty fuel tanks add buoyancy

...I see what you did there

 

[Tantalum]

I think I saw you on my Stratux last time I went out there....

Yeah I'm basically climbing until Foreflight's glide range rings just about touch Catalina.. I'm not sure I've ever made it quite up to 12,5 but the point is illustrated. SoCal doesn't seem to mind

 

[cowman]

In most of the ditching stories I've heard everyone gets out of the plane right away without thinking and leaves all their survival gear in the sinking aircraft.

 

[Salty]

Yeah I'm basically climbing until Foreflight's glide range rings just about touch Catalina.. I'm not sure I've ever made it quite up to 12,5 but the point is illustrated. SoCal doesn't seem to mind

haha, I do the same thing when I fly to the keys. Last time my D-> was a little crooked so I could stay closer to the shoreline until I got high enough.

 

[YKA]

The guy who really wants them, needs to buy his own, and leave others alone.