Escape underwater oxygen bottle argument

Katamarino said:
Only about 450 lbs. Guess it would help slow the sinking a bit?
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Yeah. Aluminum has 2.7 times the density of water, so if an empty Cherokee weighs 1300 lbs (and is 100% made of aluminum), you need about 800 pounds of additional buoyancy to float it. Assuming you have 450 pounds of buoyancy in the air tanks ;-), you'd need another 350 pounds of buoyancy to keep it afloat. That's another 50 gallons of air. I'm sure it would take a while for all the air to bleed out of nooks and crannies, so it makes sense that a Cherokee would float for a while.
 
Rebel Lord said:
So me and another pilot are in a pretty heated debate about whether having a small scuba tank for each passenger in the event of a water ditching. We are talking about a piper Cherokee. He wants to buy each passenger position a small scuba tank to help escape.

im trying to convince him that it’s not necessary at all and would in the unlikely event of water ditching would only hinder.

I need some outside opinions because we are going in circles. Thanks
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Rebel Lord said:
I would also want to add the main reason he thinks he needs it is the situation if you remember from AOPA safety institutes video where the pilot landed his float plane with the gears down and flipped and his son was tragically killed as his main argument.
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Is your Dad planning to put amphibious floats on the Cherokee? :eek: If not the whole thing would seem a moot point...
 
I've never been in the dunker like some of you, but in all the pictures I found there are safety divers with scuba tanks....

Using a spare-air type device doesn't really require much more than making sure it's on. Injury from using it seems unlikely, and any injury would be less severe than downing. And I'd think even 60 seconds of air could make a life-saving difference. That said, there's probably higher priorities for the $$.
 
Rebel Lord said:
So me and another pilot are in a pretty heated debate about whether having a small scuba tank for each passenger in the event of a water ditching. We are talking about a piper Cherokee. He wants to buy each passenger position a small scuba tank to help escape.

im trying to convince him that it’s not necessary at all and would in the unlikely event of water ditching would only hinder.

I need some outside opinions because we are going in circles. Thanks
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As a passenger many times over in Navy and Marine Corps helos, I have never been provided an emergency breathing device. Only aircrew get SEEDs. SEALs may get them as well.

I have never felt I needed one. I made sure I knew the exits and would be able to find my way out with my eyes closed.

A Cherokee is by far a simpler thing to egress. If you can’t egress a Cherokee in the water it’s because you are unconscious and a SEED won’t help you.
 
Have you also thought about keeping a spare oxygen bottle in your automobile as well? From 2004 through 2007, there was an annual average of 384 traffic fatalities in FARS (Fatality Analysis Reporting System) where accidental drowning was listed as one of the causes of death. My guess is that one spends much more time in an automobile than a car. If you really want to decrease your mortality in any type of transportation vehicle that has been involved in any type of a relatively high speed accident. Buy a tourniquet (that can be place on using just one hand) they are about $30 on Amazon. On injured people who received or used a tourniquet, the ones who had a tourniquet, had significantly lower mortality rates than those who did not—2.9 percent vs. 7.9 percent. The non-tourniquet group had almost six times greater odds of death.
 
I’ve spent the last 7 years of my life flying over great big mountains and cold water, with not much in between. Most of it single-engine. I carried a bail bottle underneath my seat when I was still flying piston stuff; I figured it may give me the extra minute I need to drag someone thats unconscious out of the plane. I know one or two accidents where it might have made a difference.

That being said, unless you fly over lots of water it probably isn’t worth it.
 
Most disturbing accident report I ever read involved plane sinking through ice. Suffice it to say scuba tanks would not of helped.
 
Does the plane have shoulder belts? Those could help you remain conscious in a crash by not letting your head smack into stuff. I think that'd be more important that a small air tank you'd struggle to find in a crash.
 
kyleb said:
My friend who did ditch his Cherokee reported no difficulty in getting out and that the airplane floated for a long time before it sank. I think 60+ gallons of empty fuel tanks add buoyancy. ;-)
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Yeah, about 480 lbs. worth of buoyancy.
 
midwestpa24 said:
I have to say if your biggest fear when flying is drowning, you may be doing something wrong. Unless you are in the Navy.
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Even then you get so much training in water survival in the Navy that ejecting and landing in the water was far preferable to me than some others like ending back on the flight deck in a spinning E-2 prop after ejecting on a soft cat shot. :eek:

Lots of good advice here and since there is little chance your or your passengers are going to get helo dunker training, your best chance of everyone walking (OK floating) away is YOUR training and prep. Make sure you understand how to ditch the plane in various sea states and that the right seat understands, and tries, opening the door.

If you REALLY wanted to buy something, some float vests that people have on would be far more valuable. I've taken the ones my wife and I use with our kayaks. https://www.basspro.com/shop/en/bass-pro-shops-am24-auto-manual-inflatable-life-vest and be sure and get the manual inflate ones!
 
If it makes him feel better, what's the harm? Why bother arguing?
 
Considering that people usually successfully egress the aircraft after the rare event of a ditching, I would be more concerned about how to keep them alive once they are out and to make sure that I will be found quickly: https://www.avweb.com/flight-safety/technique/ditching-old-wives-tales/

Like others said, I don't see any untrained, panicking person successfully breath out of a scuba bottle anyway. All the additional gear will likely also make if more difficult for them to get out, what should be the #1 priority anyway. Frankly, this idea sounds rather counterproductive to me.
 
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midwestpa24 said:
Are he and all passengers going to stay trained and proficient in donning the scuba equipment while hanging upside down underwater and in a state of panic?
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This. See the Helicopter crash in the Hudson a couple years back. One float didn’t deploy, one did, and it flipped over. The passengers had a crude belt cutter to cut their harness and watched a safety video before the flight. But in complete panic no passenger is going to be able to think rationally and get out in time unless they regularly face life and death situations or train to proficiency regularly.
 
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I think you'd be better off having some simple mask or swimmer goggles, wear them loose around your neck for long water crossings. Seeing underwater can be a ***** and its amazing how many people freak when their head is underwater and can't see.

Plus, once you make it out, if you don't have a life vest and seas go above about 5..6ft you're heads gonna be going underwater...alot. good tinted ones could double as crude sunglasses as well.

Plus you can watch down and look for sharks LOL!

Always a interesting topic.

Pony bottle is not worth it. As others have said, let your partner buy (and maintain and mount) his own.

A SPOT or preferably a inReach would be high on my list as well. And quality life vest thingy.
 
German guy said:
Considering that people usually successfully egress the aircraft after the rare event of a ditching, I would be more concerned about how to keep them alive once they are out and to make sure that I will be found quickly: https://www.avweb.com/flight-safety/technique/ditching-old-wives-tales/

Like others said, I don't see any untrained, panicking person successfully breath out of a scuba bottle anyway. All the additional gear will likely also make if more difficult for them to get out, what should be the #1 priority anyway. Frankly, this idea sounds rather counterproductive to me.
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There's no special knowledge or skill necessary to breathe on scuba. Everyone I've ever handed a regulator to has been able to breathe on the first try. And all this extra equipment can hang on a life vest. For a few hundred $, you've got several minutes of air. I get why some might spend their money elsewhere, but I really don't see any downside.

https://www.spareair.com/models/models-index.html
 
Lindberg said:
There's no special knowledge or skill necessary to breathe on scuba. Everyone I've ever handed a regulator to has been able to breathe on the first try. [...]
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Without a mask on? When the regulator is full of water and they first have to blow it out, possibly while being under water? :rolleyes:
Quite a few people struggle with the exercise even in a calm pool environment. Many people also find it mentally challenging to breath in under water.

Anyway, I don't think that he is focussing on the right things. I would certainly not want my freaked out passengers to start fiddling with a pony tank, when they have other stuff flying around, have water coming in, etc. - once we're in the water I want them out NOW.

The focus needs to be on emergency procedures, being found as fast as possible and to survive long enough. In terms of equipment, good live vests, an InReach and a life raft are the way to go. Don't load the passengers up with crap they won't be able to properly use anyway, that might hinder them to get out and that only distracts them from their main tasks in case of a ditching.
 
German guy said:
Without a mask on? When the regulator is full of water and they first have to blow it out, possibly while being under water? :rolleyes:
Quite a few people struggle with the exercise even in a calm pool environment. Many people also find it mentally challenging to breath in under water.
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Beats drowning.
Anyway, I don't think that he is focussing on the right things. I would certainly not want my freaked out passengers to start fiddling with a pony tank, when they have other stuff flying around, have water coming in, etc. - once we're in the water I want them out NOW.

The focus needs to be on emergency procedures, being found as fast as possible and to survive long enough. In terms of equipment, good live vests, an InReach and a life raft are the way to go. Don't load the passengers up with crap they won't be able to properly use anyway, that might hinder them to get out and that only distracts them from their main tasks in case of a ditching.
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All of those things are important, but are useless if you drown. Have all of those things. And then why discourage someone who wants air too? Spare Air or a HEEDS is not comparable to a pony bottle.
 
Lindberg said:
Beats drowning. All of those things are important, but are useless if you drown. Have all of those things. And then why discourage someone who wants air too? Spare Air or a HEEDS is not comparable to a pony bottle.
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Keep in mind that there is quite a chance that they might only get into this drowning situation because they were told to get the spare air first, hence losing precious time. Getting to the bottle would probably not be a problem while they're still sitting at the ramp. A ditching, resulting in shock, possibly moved luggage, shifted clothing or maybe even this (extremely rare) upside-down situation, however changes everything.

Even in offshore helicopter survival training, no spare air is used (as a far as I know), the focus is instead on getting out as quickly as possible.
 
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