End of night VFR coming?

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Walboy

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Never heard of it.

Besides it would really screw up lots of stuff here.

Sounds like something from the communist / socialist countries, and the people who believe in "saftey", same crowd also believed in Santa till they were like 30 lol


Morgan3820 said:
In Europe, you have to be instrument rated to fly at night.
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In Mexico you can't drink the water without getting the chits
 
James331 said:
Never heard of it.

Besides it would really screw up lots of stuff here.

Sounds like something from the communist / socialist countries, and the people who believe in "saftey", same crowd also believed in Santa till they were like 30 lol




In Mexico you can't drink the water without getting the chits
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Wait, Santa's not real? Say it ain't so!
 
unsafervguy said:
just listen to miami tower and explan why I have to have "english Proficient" on my certificate.
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The best part is that it is listed under Limitations. ;)
It is just a big FU from our government agencies, laughing into our faces.
There are many towers (such as Addison) where the controlles must have surely received training in Chinglish (and patience) because they can understand pilots that 99% of us can't. :)

I cannot imagine pilots in this country agreeing to the abolishment of night VFR. I don't think that would go over well.
Keep us informed, I am curious whether this is real or a hoax.
 
Yeah right, like pilots agreeing to anything will stop the heavy hand of the feds! Keep putting these big government, globalist scumbags in office and kiss your liberties Sayonara.
I'll be leaving the country soon. You that ignore the warning signs will get what you deserve. There are plenty of places that may not quite have the amenities but sure as hell have liberty and pretty girls!
 
Walboy said:
I attended AOPA's Trivia Night in Mesa, AZ last night and the presenter mentioned that there is an effort underway to abolish the privilege of flying at night under VFR. He didn't say who is behind the effort but it was in the context of improving safety. That was the first time I had heard of that and judging by the expressions of the others in attendance not many others had heard that either.
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New fundraising/fear campaign by AOPA to browbeat more people into donating money?
 
Morgan3820 said:
In Europe, you have to be instrument rated to fly at night.
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That is not quite correct. At least here in Germany, night VFR is permitted. It is different than in the US, though:
You have to take additional mandatory training on top of your PP (comparable to the endorsements you can add to a US license) and the rules and regulations are more restrictive (mandatory flight plan, almost constant contact to an ATC facility throughout the flight for non-local flights etc.) but the biggest issue in practical terms is that basically all non-towered airfields close shortly after sunset leaving you with only the major (and expensive) airfields as potential destinations.
 
Show me the data of VFR night fatalities/accidents...or is it just more fear mongering and the attempt to keep us safe from ourselves and a solution in search of a problem?
 
In Canada too, you need a special Night Rating for night VFR. I think that's common in many (if not most) countries. We are very lucky here in the US flying-wise (and otherwise), yet many of us don't appreciate it.
 
kyleb said:
New fundraising/fear campaign by AOPA to browbeat more people into donating money?
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EAA is about to get ALL of my dollars for what they're doing for getting experimental gear into certified planes. If AOPA wants continued membership, they should be doing stuff that benefits the membership.

... I'm sure the dues were well spent for medical reform that we still don't have yet.
 
So flights at night would be IFR only? I would cry. If they decide to do that, there better be an exemption along the lines of "If you logged X amount of night hours on or before XX/XX you are exempt as described in section X of XX.XX."
 
Walboy said:
I attended AOPA's Trivia Night in Mesa, AZ last night and the presenter mentioned that there is an effort underway to abolish the privilege of flying at night under VFR. He didn't say who is behind the effort but it was in the context of improving safety. That was the first time I had heard of that and judging by the expressions of the others in attendance not many others had heard that either.

I'm pretty skeptical about it myself as diversions for weather and other situations toward the end of the day would almost surely cause flights to extend into darkness on a regular basis.

Anybody else hear anything about this?
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FWIW, that's news to AFS-800. There's a big push in the GA safety world to reduce "loss-of-control" accidents, many of which happen in VMC->IMC, marginal VFR, and nighttime conditions. That said, the emphasis is on encouraging VFR pilots to conduct risk assessments and seek additional training rather than taking away privileges. Not sure what the speaker you were listening to said, but somehow somebody is misinterpreting something somewhere.
 
Walboy said:
I was very clear in my initial post as to what the speaker said. There was at least a 120 other people in the room who heard the same thing.

I was also clear that he didn't say who was behind the effort. For all I know, it's some whacky congressman.
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120 people in the room and no one asked him to clarify during Q&A? Can you email him? I'd sure like to know what he's talking about.
 
Brad Z said:
FWIW, that's news to AFS-800. There's a big push in the GA safety world to reduce "loss-of-control" accidents, many of which happen in VMC->IMC, marginal VFR, and nighttime conditions. That said, the emphasis is on encouraging VFR pilots to conduct risk assessments and seek additional training rather than taking away privileges. Not sure what the speaker you were listening to said, but somehow somebody is misinterpreting something somewhere.
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Aren't most accidents "loss of control"? :)
 
denverpilot said:
Aren't most accidents "loss of control"? :)
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Like CFIT, fuel exhaustion, and mid-airs? To your point, yes the majority of fatal accidents involve loss of control prior to impact. The emphasis is on trying to prevent the LOC that causes the wreck. Spatial disorientation has certainly been a factor long before JfKjr's last flight in 1999...but so have stall/spins in the pattern, and the consequently the push for low cost aoa alerters.
 
Brad Z said:
Like CFIT, fuel exhaustion, and mid-airs? To your point, yes the majority of fatal accidents involve loss of control prior to impact. The emphasis is on trying to prevent the LOC that causes the wreck. Spatial disorientation has certainly been a factor long before JfKjr's last flight in 1999...but so have stall/spins in the pattern, and the consequently the push for low cost aoa alerters.
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You missed the biggest group of "loss of control"... landings and takeoffs. (Not as fatal as the other sort, but lots more of them.)

I was just pointing out the irony in a safety push to eliminate "loss of control", it's a ridiculously broad category name. One could even call CFIT a "loss of control"... you didn't control where the dang airplane was going. LOL.
 
Walboy said:
I attended AOPA's Trivia Night in Mesa, AZ last night and the presenter mentioned that there is an effort underway to abolish the privilege of flying at night under VFR. He didn't say who is behind the effort but it was in the context of improving safety.
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Lots of people like to make up regulations or claim that your insurance will be void if you are doing something they personally don't approve of. I guess wishing for more regulations is not that hard to imagine.
 
Makes sense to me. It's hard to separate night flying that can be done via outside references and flying that will require flying solely by instruments. I would argue it's as or more dangerous as flying in IMC.
 
Walboy said:
I was very clear in my initial post as to what the speaker said. There was at least a 120 other people in the room who heard the same thing.

I was also clear that he didn't say who was behind the effort. For all I know, it's some whacky congressman.
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Probably the same Florida jackwad who scuttled the DL medical.
 
I applaud the level of risk the FAA still let's us take. That said I don't think personally it's a great idea to do a ton of single engine night flight. Or for a new PPL to fly cross country on a moonless night. An IR is very helpful for night flight. Not filing in the system but knowing how to fly IMC.

That all said I hope the FAA preserves our freedom to still do this stuff, while we still try and train pilots to be safe...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Grum.Man said:
Makes sense to me. It's hard to separate night flying that can be done via outside references and flying that will require flying solely by instruments. I would argue it's as or more dangerous as flying in IMC.
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Night flying on a moonless night over dark terrain is "actual instrument conditions" by definition (and may be legally logged as such). See this thread for more information.
 
gsengle said:
That's why night flight is covered as part of our private training, so it doesn't have to be an add on. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Barely. Night flying is covered in PPL about as much as instrument flying but you can't fly on instruments after earning your PPL. I kinda think the add-on rating is appropriate (kinda like Canada) for night VFR. Taking off into a black hole is very different than on a sunny CAVU day.

I haven't looked at accident statistics but I think there's a lot more skill involved and there are hazards in night flying that don't exist during daylight hours.

Flame away...
 
Oh I agree. I just appreciate that the FAA still let's us exercise our judgement a bit. Let's remember for how much criticism they and our government gets, we can still fly past the World Trade Center at 1000ft to this day.


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There is night VFR and there is DARK night VFR and there is night VFR over mountains, and so forth. Fairly lit night VFR by moon or other lights over flat terrain is not terribly difficult. This is the first Ive ever heard of restricting it. I call BS. Just AOPA trying to raise concerns. One guy spouting off.
 
Morgan3820 said:
In Europe, you have to be instrument rated to fly at night.
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It wasn't when I learned to fly in the UK, it was just an additional add-on - not a full IFR type rating - maybe it's changed
 
The UK is not Europe, but you are correct. The EASA states have a separate night rating as well as three different flavors of instrument rating.
 
The discussion has been going on in this country for some time. As mentioned, many other countries don't allow night VFR.

The big issue is VFR pilots who can't hold a plane upside right in IMC having VFR into IMC incidents, resulting in loss of control accidents. See JFK Jr for a high profile case.

I see a lot of pilots take night VFR flying pretty casually. Personally, I don't think it's a good idea to do without an instrument rating. I've had too many times that I've (unexpectedly) flown into a cloud at night to recommend night VFR flight to VFR only pilots. This has even happened on days when I've flown 1400 miles over the same route I then backtracked on at night and didn't see a single cloud for the entire trip. This can be surprising if you don't expect it.

Personally I don't think there should be a law in place eliminating night VFR flights, because there are times when flying VFR at night is beneficial and useful. However, I wouldn't be opposed to saying night VFR flight is restricted to those with an instrument rating.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
However, I wouldn't be opposed to saying night VFR flight is restricted to those with an instrument rating.
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I would be.

I recall during my PPL training before starting night training that my CFI sayin how I would likely need a LOT more dual night time to be proficient...then we flew. I took right to it and actually performed better at night..and we were in the dark of centra florida. Many of my VFR flights post PPL were at night. While others may have issues with depth perception, dark conditions, and so on...that is not true for all pilots.

While I would disagree that IFR should be needed for night as a lot of IFR procedures would not apply beyond airplane control and CFIT awareness, I could agree with an argument that night VFR flying should require an endorsement like High Performance or Complex to make sure a CFI verifies that you are proficient and capable enough to handle the night conditions beyond just the PPL minimums.
 
Shawn said:
I would be.

I recall during my PPL training before starting night training that my CFI sayin how I would likely need a LOT more dual night time to be proficient...then we flew. I took right to it and actually performed better at night..and we were in the dark of centra florida. Many of my VFR flights post PPL were at night. While others may have issues with depth perception, dark conditions, and so on...that is not true for all pilots.

While I would disagree that IFR should be needed for night as a lot of IFR procedures would not apply beyond airplane control and CFIT awareness, I could agree with an argument that night VFR flying should require an endorsement like High Performance or Complex to make sure a CFI verifies that you are proficient and capable enough to handle the night conditions beyond just the PPL minimums.
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I realize plenty disagree with me, and that's fine. My issue isn't with depth perception, dark, etc., it's with inadvertent VFR into IMC and subsequent loss of control. There is CFIT awareness to consider as well, which is part of why I make a point of shooting instrument approaches at night unless it's at an airport I know incredibly well. Even then, sometimes I specifically shoot an instrument approach because I know it well enough to know there are obstacles.

Of course, I also flew a lot in the northeast where clouds are common. There are parts of the country where clouds are not common.
 
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