Logging IFR during moonless Night VFR

jaybee

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I know you can, friend called me to ask - don't have the proper amount of time to look at regs right now so I appreciate any help.

So the question is IFR rated pilot, not IFR current, in a IFR equipped ship which is also not IFR legal (R44 Helicopter). Can the time spent VFR Night with no moon be legally logged as IMC ?

Thanks.
 
It's not IMC if your cloud/vis requirements are more than that for the airspace you are in. But you can log it as instrument time/flight by reference to instruments. There's a GC opinion on that somewhere, but I don't know the name of which to search to link to it. Ron should be along shortly with it.
 
This has come up before and I believe the consensus was "yes." I'm not sure what the advantage to doing so is though.
 
This has come up before and I believe the consensus was "yes." I'm not sure what the advantage to doing so is though.

Well, Angel Flight requires 100 hours of instrument time to be a pilot for them. It could count towards that.
 
Regardless of what the consensus here is, the FAA Chief Counsel said about 30 years ago that it is legal. From the 1984 Carr letter:

As you know, Section 61.51(c)(4) provides rules for the logging of instrument flight time which may be used to meet the requirements of a certificate or rating, or to meet the recent flight experience requirements of Part 61. That section provides in part, that a pilot may log as instrument flight time only that time during which he or she operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments, under actual (instrument meteorological conditions (imc)) or simulated instrument flight conditions. "Simulated" instrument conditions occur when the pilot's vision outside of the aircraft is intentionally restricted, such as by a hood or goggles. "Actual" instrument flight conditions occur when some outside conditions make it necessary for the pilot to use the aircraft instruments in order to maintain adequate control over the aircraft. Typically, these conditions involve adverse weather conditions.

To answer your first question, actual instrument conditions may occur in the case you described a moonless night over the ocean with no discernible horizon, if use of the instruments is necessary to maintain adequate control over the aircraft. The determination as to whether flight by reference to instruments is necessary is somewhat subjective and based in part on the sound judgment of the pilot. Note that, under Section 61.51(b)(3), the pilot must log the conditions of the flight. The log should include the reasons for determining that the flight was under actual instrument conditions in case the pilot later would be called on to prove that the actual instrument flight time logged was legitimate.
BTW, the FAA has no regulation regarding the logging of or requirement for "IMC time", only "actual instrument time" and "simulated instrument time." Please keep in mind that "IMC" refers to conditions specified in 91.155 in which VFR flight is not legal, while "actual instrument conditions" refer to unspecified flight conditions which "make it necessary for the pilot to use the aircraft instruments in order to maintain adequate control over the aircraft" (to quote the Chief Counsel).

Note that the two are entirely separate issues, governed by separate regulations. It is possible to be in actual instrument conditions without being in IMC (e.g., the clear but pitch black night over featureless terrain), and to be in IMC without being in actual instrument conditions (e.g., being 1900 feet laterally from the only cloud in a clear sky in Class E airspace). As an example, it seems pretty certain that just before his death, JFK Jr. was in actual instrument conditions but also in VMC.
 
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Well, Angel Flight requires 100 hours of instrument time to be a pilot for them. It could count towards that.
Also, you need 75 hours of instrument time both to be an IFR PIC under Part 135 and to get an ATP with airplane rating. And of course there's the 40 hours of instrument time required for the instrument rating.
 
Ron the Chief Counsel gives moonless night and over the ocean for the conditions necessary for "actual." I take it that he's implying that any conditions at night such where I can't see the terrain below or horizon would suffice as well?
 
Ron the Chief Counsel gives moonless night and over the ocean for the conditions necessary for "actual." I take it that he's implying that any conditions at night such where I can't see the terrain below or horizon would suffice as well?

Yes, but since the over the ocean was the scenario posed by the question asker, that was the scenario answered. Alaskan tundra, 'Zona desert, and even Lake Michigan would qualify. I actually had that over Lake Michigan a couple years back. Visibility was 6-10ish, and there were clouds above. I was on my gauges the whole time until I could make out the lights along the Michigan shore.
 
Ron the Chief Counsel gives moonless night and over the ocean for the conditions necessary for "actual."
I think it would be more accurate to say "the Chief Counsel gives moonless night and over the ocean as examples of the conditions necessary for 'actual'."
I take it that he's implying that any conditions at night such where I can't see the terrain below or horizon would suffice as well?
That's how I read it. So between layers in daytime could be actual instrument conditions, too, as well as visibility so poor there is no real horizon and you can pretty much see only straight down, or other similar situations one might imagine in which, to use the Chief Counsel's words, "use of the instruments is necessary to maintain adequate control over the aircraft."
 
The question then becomes, can a non-IFR pilot fly and log that time in legal VMC but effective IMC? Obviously he can fly it - it's legal conditions for VFR - but can it be logged? What about VFR-On-Top?

From the first OP question - the conditions specified are IFR rated but not current - which means he's not legal to exercise IFR - which means he's in the same boat as VFR, correct?

I'm honestly asking the question because I don't know - I'm VFR only but wanting to pursue the IFR very soon.
 
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Yes, but since the over the ocean was the scenario posed by the question asker, that was the scenario answered. Alaskan tundra, 'Zona desert, and even Lake Michigan would qualify. I actually had that over Lake Michigan a couple years back. Visibility was 6-10ish, and there were clouds above. I was on my gauges the whole time until I could make out the lights along the Michigan shore.
Even LM during the day can qualify, if it's hazy and you're at altitude the sky and the lake can be the same color with no horizon. My first logged actual after primary training was over LM on a hazy summer day.
 
Even LM during the day can qualify, if it's hazy and you're at altitude the sky and the lake can be the same color with no horizon. My first logged actual after primary training was over LM on a hazy summer day.

Yeah, I will take students out over it on hazy days to really show them how they can get turned upside down in inadvertent instrument conditions. I can also always tell when they are "cheating" under the hood.

"Give me a heading of 270"

When we cross the lake shore that straight and level becomes not so straight, and not so level.
 
The question then becomes, can a non-IFR pilot fly and log that time in legal VMC but effective IMC? Obviously he can fly it - it's legal conditions for VFR - but can it be logged? What about VFR-On-Top?

From the first OP question - the conditions specified are IFR rated but not current - which means he's not legal to exercise IFR - which means he's in the same boat as VFR, correct?

I'm honestly asking the question because I don't know - I'm VFR only but wanting to pursue the IFR very soon.

Absolutely, as stated in the letter Ron quoted. Put a note in the logbook of WHY you logged it as such in case your logbook gets inspected. I have numerous flights where instrument time was logged, but I was not IFR nor IMC. (I have a checkbook in my e-logbook to log a flight as IFR or not)

VFR on top is an IFR operation. VFR over the top is a VFR operation. a VFR only pilot can not legally fly VFR on top as that requires an IFR clearance.
 
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VFR on top is an IFR operation. VFR over the top is a VFR operation. a VFR only pilot can not legally fly VFR on top as that requires an IFR clearance.

Ahhh, OK, I think I see the distinction. I've flown several long XC flights as VFR with flight following with solid undercast below but good VFR on both ends, that's VFR over the top rather than VFR on top, while VFR on top would be an assigned clearance on an IFR flight plan.
 
I think it would be more accurate to say "the Chief Counsel gives moonless night and over the ocean as examples of the conditions necessary for 'actual'."
That's how I read it. So between layers in daytime could be actual instrument conditions, too, as well as visibility so poor there is no real horizon and you can pretty much see only straight down, or other similar situations one might imagine in which, to use the Chief Counsel's words, "use of the instruments is necessary to maintain adequate control over the aircraft."
That's how I read it too.

It's not "is there a cloud?" question. It's not a "do I need the VOR to navigate?" question.

It's much simpler and straightforward than that. The question is "are the conditions outside such that I need to use the instruments to keep the airplane upright." If the answer is "no" you may not log it as actual instrument time. If the answer is "yes," you may (although I have heard some "I need them" scenarios that suggest the pilot needs more visual reference training than instruments :rolleyes:)
 
The question then becomes, can a non-IFR pilot fly and log that time in legal VMC but effective IMC? Obviously he can fly it - it's legal conditions for VFR - but can it be logged? What about VFR-On-Top?

This!

Over the potato fields and logging country of Northern Maine, with clouds and no moon, there are ZERO references. It's super hard to pick out terrain and would definitely qualify for IFR. I've been mulling a trip up to Caribou and was wondering wither I could log actual IFR, with or without a safety pilot, if I was in such conditions.
 
It hasn't been mentioned yet, but it would be a good idea to make a note in the remarks section of one's logbook about the conditions that allowed for the logging of actual instrument conditions in the case that the pilot was not current and/or qualified for such a flight.
 
Ahhh, OK, I think I see the distinction. I've flown several long XC flights as VFR with flight following with solid undercast below but good VFR on both ends, that's VFR over the top rather than VFR on top, while VFR on top would be an assigned clearance on an IFR flight plan.

You follow correctly.

This!

Over the potato fields and logging country of Northern Maine, with clouds and no moon, there are ZERO references. It's super hard to pick out terrain and would definitely qualify for IFR. I've been mulling a trip up to Caribou and was wondering wither I could log actual IFR, with or without a safety pilot, if I was in such conditions.

To be pedantic, you've got your terms all a-jumble.
You don't log IFR, even if you have an instrument rating. You log instrument, or simulated instrument. And you can only log simulated instrument with a safety pilot/instructor.

It hasn't been mentioned yet, but it would be a good idea to make a note in the remarks section of one's logbook about the conditions that allowed for the logging of actual instrument conditions in the case that the pilot was not current and/or qualified for such a flight.

Post 14.
 
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The question then becomes, can a non-IFR pilot fly and log that time in legal VMC but effective IMC?
There is no such thing as "legal VMC but effective IMC." The boundaries between VMC and IMC are clearly delineated in 91.155, and the conditions in which one is flying must be either VMC or IMC, one or the other exclusively, never both. Further, a pilot without instrument privileges as defined in 61.3(e), i.e., one who holds:
(1) The appropriate aircraft category, class, type (if required), and instrument rating on that person's pilot certificate for any airplane, helicopter, or powered-lift being flown;

(2) An airline transport pilot certificate with the appropriate aircraft category, class, and type rating (if required) for the aircraft being flown;
(3) For a glider, a pilot certificate with a glider category rating and an airplane instrument rating; or (4) For an airship, a commercial pilot certificate with a lighter-than-air category rating and airship class rating.
... cannot legally act as PIC in IMC, period, end of story.

However,...

Obviously he can fly it - it's legal conditions for VFR - but can it be logged?
...a pilot without instrument privileges legally flying under VFR in conditions which qualify as VMC under 91.155 but which nevertheless meet the definition of "actual instrument conditions" as defined by the FAA in the Carr letter (above) can legally log the time in those actual instrument conditions as actual instrument time per 61.51(g)(1).

What about VFR-On-Top?
"VFR on top" is an FAA term for an IFR operation as described in 91.179(a), and defined in the Pilot/Controller Glossary as follows:
VFR‐ON‐TOP- ATC authorization for an IFR aircraft to operate in VFR conditions at any appropriate VFR altitude (as specified in 14 CFR and as restricted by ATC). A pilot receiving this authorization must comply with the VFR visibility, distance from cloud criteria, and the minimum IFR altitudes specified in 14 CFR Part 91. The use of this term does not relieve controllers of their responsibility to separate aircraft in Class B and Class C airspace or TRSAs as required by FAAO JO 7110.65.
As such, you cannot legally operate under a VFR-On-Top clearance unless you are operating under IFR. However, you can still legally operate under VFR above a cloud deck as long as you comply with the cloud clearance and visibility requirements of 91.155, i.e., remain in VMC. In that case, it's your judgment as PIC whether or not the "use of the instruments is necessary to maintain adequate control over the aircraft." If it is, then you can log it as actual instrument time. OTOH, if not (e.g., you're in bright blue skies over a flat layer), you can't.

And as we're only talking legalities right now, I'll leave the discussion of the wisdom of a pilot without instrument privileges operating above a cloud layer for another day (or thread).

From the first OP question - the conditions specified are IFR rated but not current - which means he's not legal to exercise IFR - which means he's in the same boat as VFR, correct?
Assuming the pilot in question is acting as PIC, yes, that's true. It's possible someone else IFR/PIC qualified and current is aboard acting as PIC, in which case they could be legally operating under IFR, but that's not stated.

I'm honestly asking the question because I don't know - I'm VFR only but wanting to pursue the IFR very soon.
Then take away from this discussion the important distinction between instrument meteorological conditions (IMC, which means less than VMC cloud clearance/visibility per 91.155) and "actual instrument conditions" per the Chief Counsel's definition.
 
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It hasn't been mentioned yet, but it would be a good idea to make a note in the remarks section of one's logbook about the conditions that allowed for the logging of actual instrument conditions in the case that the pilot was not current and/or qualified for such a flight.
Actually, it was mentioned earlier than Post #14 -- it's in the quoted segment of the Carr letter in Post #6.
The log should include the reasons for determining that the flight was under actual instrument conditions in case the pilot later would be called on to prove that the actual instrument flight time logged was legitimate.
Since the Chief Counsel said it, even if it was "should" rather than "must" or "shall", I'd still take it to heart.
 
To be pedantic, you've got your terms all a-jumble.
You don't log IFR, even if you have an instrument rating. You log instrument, or simulated instrument. And you can only log simulated instrument with a safety pilot/instructor.

Not pedantic at all, that's an important distinction and you're entirely correct.
 
I would say that this discussion points out the important semantic differences between several terms often jumbled by pilots:

  • IFR/VFR - the flight rules under which you are operating
  • IMC/VMC - cloud clearance and visibility requirements you need to operate VFR legally, and without which the regs require you operate IFR.
  • Actual instrument conditions - conditions which make it necessary for the pilot to use the aircraft instruments in order to maintain adequate control over the aircraft
As noted above, these are independent issues, and one can legally be:

  • VFR in VMC (regardless of actual instrument conditions)
  • IFR in VMC (regardless of actual instrument conditions)
  • IFR in IMC (regardless of actual instrument conditions)
  • IFR in actual instrument conditions (regardless of IMC or VMC)
  • IFR not in instrument conditions (regardless of IMC or VMC)
  • VFR in actual instrument conditions (as long as you're in VMC)
...but never legally VFR in IMC (regardless of actual instrument conditions, Special VFR notwithstanding). Further, you can log it as "actual instrument time" if, and only if, you are in actual instrument conditions (regardless of VMC/IMC or IFR/VFR).
 
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I would say that this discussion points out the important semantic differences between several terms often jumbled by pilots:

  • IFR/VFR - the flight rules under which you are operating
  • IMC/VMC - cloud clearance and visibility requirements you need to operate VFR legally, and without which the regs require you operate IFR.
  • Actual instrument conditions - conditions which make it necessary for the pilot to use the aircraft instruments in order to maintain adequate control over the aircraft
As noted above, these are independent issues, and one can legally be:

  • VFR in VMC (regardless of actual instrument conditions)
  • IFR in VMC (regardless of actual instrument conditions)
  • IFR in IMC (regardless of actual instrument conditions)
  • IFR in actual instrument conditions (regardless of IMC or VMC)
  • IFR not in instrument conditions (regardless of IMC or VMC)
  • VFR in actual instrument conditions (as long as you're in VMC)
...but never legally VFR in IMC (regardless of actual instrument conditions, Special VFR notwithstanding). Further, you can log it as "actual instrument time" if, and only if, you are in actual instrument conditions (regardless of VMC/IMC or IFR/VFR).

We need a Venn diagram of that hot mess. :D
 
Well, Angel Flight requires 100 hours of instrument time to be a pilot for them. It could count towards that.

Not all Angel Flight organization have that requirement. I am a Command Pilot in Angel Flight West and I do not have 100 hours of instrument time.
 
It hasn't been mentioned yet, but it would be a good idea to make a note in the remarks section of one's logbook about the conditions that allowed for the logging of actual instrument conditions in the case that the pilot was not current and/or qualified for such a flight.
Actually, it was in Ron's quote from the Chief Counsel opinion letter on the subject.
 
Not all Angel Flight organization have that requirement. I am a Command Pilot in Angel Flight West and I do not have 100 hours of instrument time.

You know what, I got em mixed up. I was thinking Wings of Mercy, which is based here in Michigan.
 
I remember the last time I logged actual instrument time while in VMC. I was over eastern New Mexico on a moonless night and it was absolutely pitch black outside. I remember thinking to myself that I might be a dumbass for flying a single engine aircraft under these conditions. At least I was IFR and above the MEAs.

So yeah, you can log it, but what sort of circumstances are you in that allow you to log that time?
 
An example regarding VFR/IFR and VMC/IMC: I was once on a VFR flight in VMC over the desert from Albuquerque to Tucson. It was the same day as that awful accident at Angel Fire so there was a lot of wind and turbulence down low. So, I wanted to fly at 12,500 where it was smoother.

Naturally, the clouds were hanging-out around 12-13,000 and 10,500 wasn't a good altitude that day.

To maintain legal VFR and avoid IMC I was making a lot of altitude changes and course deviations. Eventually, I asked for a pop-up IFR clearance which allowed me to go in a straight line to my destination at 12,000 feet. I was about 10 feet below the cloud bases. So, I was in IMC (and in VMC when far enough between clouds). But, I was in visual conditions the whole time so I could not log any instrument time.
 
You know what, I got em mixed up. I was thinking Wings of Mercy, which is based here in Michigan.
You might also be thinking of Angel Flight. Different AF Wings have different requirements. AF West may be the only one that doesn't have an IR requirement, I think mostly because there are a lot more severe clear VFR days in that region than elsewhere.
 
I remember the last time I logged actual instrument time while in VMC. I was over eastern New Mexico on a moonless night and it was absolutely pitch black outside. I remember thinking to myself that I might be a dumbass for flying a single engine aircraft under these conditions. At least I was IFR and above the MEAs.

So yeah, you can log it, but what sort of circumstances are you in that allow you to log that time?

I'll never forget the time I found myself in a significant bank in good VFR conditions at night over southern Arizona, and I COULD NOT figure out how to right the plane by looking out the window. I had to use the instruments to do it, in spite of the fact that there were many car headlights visible on the ground. In fact, the car headlights on a major highway were part of the problem, because they were providing a false horizon.

On another trip over the same area, I was prepared for the illusion, but I noticed how strong the desire was to align the wings with the false horizon, to the point that I had to make a conscious effort to disregard what I was seeing outside.
 
Anyone been able to find this letter on the FAA site? Looking for a reputable source I can reference.
 
Anyone been able to find this letter on the FAA site? Looking for a reputable source I can reference.
The Chief Counsel portion of the FAA site only has opinions going back to 1990. The "moonless night" letter is from 1984. I've seen enough reproductions (not photocopies or scans, just the text) from sources I think are reliable but YMMV.

FWIW, here is the full text. Maybe you can use it to find a source you feel comfortable with:

==============================
November 7, 1984
Mr. Joseph P. Carr

Dear Mr. Carr:
This is in response to your letter asking questions about instrument flight time.

First, you ask for an interpretation of Section 61.51(c)(4) of the Federal Aviation Regulations (FAR) regarding the logging of instrument flight time. You ask whether, for instance, a flight over the ocean on a moonless night without a discernible horizon could be logged as actual instrument flight time.

Second, you ask for an interpretation of Section 61.57(e)(2) of the FAR, noting that Advisory Circular 61-65A, Certification: Pilots and Flight Instructors, seems to contain advice contrary to your understanding of the rule.

As you know, Section 61.51(c)(4) provides rules for the logging of instrument flight time which may be used to meet the requirements of a certificate or rating, or to meet the recent flight experience requirements of Part 61. That section provides in part, that a pilot may log as instrument flight time only that time during which he or she operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments, under actual (instrument meteorological conditions (imc)) or simulated instrument flight conditions. "Simulated" instrument conditions occur when the pilot's vision outside of the aircraft is intentionally restricted, such as by a hood or goggles. "Actual" instrument flight conditions occur when some outside conditions make it necessary for the pilot to use the aircraft instruments in order to maintain adequate control over the aircraft. Typically, these conditions involve adverse weather conditions.

To answer your first question, actual instrument conditions may occur in the case you described a moonless night over the ocean with no discernible horizon, if use of the instruments is necessary to maintain adequate control over the aircraft. The determination as to whether flight by reference to instruments is necessary is somewhat subjective and based in part on the sound judgment of the pilot. Note that, under Section 61.51(b)(3), the pilot must log the conditions of the flight. The log should include the reasons for determining that the flight was under actual instrument conditions in case the pilot later would be called on to prove that the actual instrument flight time logged was legitimate.

To answer your second question, your understanding of Section 61.57(e) is correct. Section 61.57(e) provides currency requirements for acting as pilot in command (PIC) under instrument flight rules (IFR) or in weather conditions less than the minimums for visual flight rules (VFR). No pilot may act as PIC under those conditions unless she or he has, with the last six months, logged the number of hours of instrument flight time, including the number of approaches, indicated in Section 61.57(e)(1)(i) or (ii). When that six-month currency period lapses, that is, on the day the pilot no longer has the required instrument flight time within the last six months, the pilot may in the next six months regain her or his currency simply by logging the required instrument flight time. Note that, during this second six-month period, Section 61.57(e)(1) prohibits the pilot from acting as PIC under IFR or below VFR minimums (imc). If that second six-month period runs without the pilot regaining currency, she or he may only again become qualified to act as PIC under IFR or in weather below VFR minimums (imc) by passing an instrument competency check as described in Section 61.57(e)(2).

Advisory Circular 61-65A, paragraph 15a, explained in part that a pilot failing to meet the recency of instrument experience requirements for a period of 12 months must pass an instrument competency check. This simply meant that, when a pilot becomes qualified to act as PIC under the instrument conditions described, he or she has at least a 12-month period in which currency my be maintained or regained by logging the required instrument flight time. After that 12-month period, if currency has not been maintained or regained, the pilot must pass an instrument competency check. Advisory Circular 61-65A was not intended to expand the second six-month "grace" period to 12 months. As you note, the Advisory Circular has been changed, and paragraph 15 was rewritten to more accurately reflect the requirements of Section 61.57(e)(2).

Sincerely,
/s/
John H. Cassady
Assistant Chief counsel
Regulations and Enforcement Division
==============================
 
Thank you Mark. This will have to do until I can find something from the FAA.
You'll have to write to them to get a "true copy".

Office of the Chief Counsel (AGC-200)
FAA
800 Independence Avenue SW
Washington, DC 20591
 
Thanks Ron. I was gonna call and see what the best way to get it is. I will write them.
 
I log "Filed IFR" time, "IMC" time, and "hood" time because they make sense to me. I make no distinction between "IMC" and "actual instrument conditions" although there can be a difference. I don't see much actual without being in IMC, though it has happened.
 
I agree that it is a small percentage. But this increases on the type of flying you do. I did a trip from KEYW to KFRG which was mostly at night on a moonless night with clouds below me. The only light then were distant thunderstorms. In this case a significant portion of that trip was IMC.
 
I log "Filed IFR" time, "IMC" time, and "hood" time because they make sense to me. I make no distinction between "IMC" and "actual instrument conditions" although there can be a difference. I don't see much actual without being in IMC, though it has happened.
Depending on how you choose to define the terms you are using and what else you do to maintain currency, you could have a small problem.

Logging approaches, holds, etc for currency requires they be in "actual weather conditions" not just in IMC. If your working definition of IMC is "actual" rather than the FAA's below VFR minimums, no problem. But the other way potentially has you logging an approach or hold when all the clouds are 400' above you and the visibility is 100 miles since that is definitely IMC and just as definitely not "actual."
 
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