Electronic pilot log books

Kitch said:
You can add it in manually. However at that point you don't get the actual gps track log with altitude and ground speed info etc
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That’s what Flightaware is for. Between MFB and FA, I have everything I need for free.
 
Lindberg said:
I honestly can't think of any advantage paper logbooks have over electronic.
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I can't go that far. If I ever have grandkids, I'll likely never sit with them and look through my electronic logbook as I tell stories. Some descendents of mine will never discover it and donate it to a museum. It doesn't capture the sentimentality of the entries, other people's handwriting, some who may be long gone, etc.

However, in every other way than nostalgia or sentimentality, the electronic logbook is superior.

Admittedly, though, very very few of my entries have any sentimentality to them anyway. Pages and pages of training flights as a CFI, and pages and pages of flying other people from point A to point B don't make for very interesting reading.
 
If the concern is that the app will go away or the data in the cloud will go away, then MFB allows for easy export of the data in a common format that can be downloaded to local storage and subsequently imported by any spreadsheet program and some other electronic logbooks.

The myflightbook.com website also has a "Printing" button at the top of the page that will present your log in a printer-friendly format if you really want it on paper.

Everything has risks. You can misplace a paper logbook, or have it fall in a puddle. MFB does a good job of mitigating data loss risks.
 
Call me paranoid if you want, but having worked for computer manufacturers in the past I use three different log books that I keep up to date. MFB is great, and I use it. I also keep an Excel spreadsheet on my laptop up to date. Add to that a paper logbook. I can see one of the three failing some time, but all three? Not likely. And given that one of the computer manufacturers I worked for in the past was Tandem Computers, single points of failure just don't work for me.
 
Ghery said:
Call me paranoid if you want, but having worked for computer manufacturers in the past I use three different log books that I keep up to date. MFB is great, and I use it. I also keep an Excel spreadsheet on my laptop up to date. Add to that a paper logbook. I can see one of the three failing some time, but all three? Not likely. And given that one of the computer manufacturers I worked for in the past was Tandem Computers, single points of failure just don't work for me.
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This man understands redundancy.

I only use MFB and paper, but I do export MFB periodically as Excel and email it to myself-so it lives on my phone and my computer (and yes, the email is actually on my computer, not just in the cloud accessed by my computer).
 
I created mine in excel. I got burned by another now defunct logbook program and I’ll never trust another again.
 
Initial Fix said:
I created mine in excel. I got burned by another now defunct logbook program and I’ll never trust another again.
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Can you please tell us what happened? So others can watch for the warning signs.

Mark Twain once said "A cat that has sat on a hot stove will never sit on one again. It will not sit on a cold stove either." Once burned only helps if you understand what actually the issue is.
 
Ghery said:
Call me paranoid if you want, but having worked for computer manufacturers in the past I use three different log books that I keep up to date. MFB is great, and I use it. I also keep an Excel spreadsheet on my laptop up to date. Add to that a paper logbook. I can see one of the three failing some time, but all three? Not likely. And given that one of the computer manufacturers I worked for in the past was Tandem Computers, single points of failure just don't work for me.
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You can save yourself two of the three and keep all the redundancy: MFB will automatically export to a spreadsheet nightly for $25/yr (or manually for free), and you can print it once a week. Viola!
 
jsstevens said:
Can you please tell us what happened? So others can watch for the warning signs.

Mark Twain once said "A cat that has sat on a hot stove will never sit on one again. It will not sit on a cold stove either." Once burned only helps if you understand what actually the issue is.
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years ago (15+) I had bought into an online logbook who’s name I don’t remember. They dropped all support a few years later and offered a very trivial export of data. I ended up having to reenter a bunch of data. I created my excel logbook after that and it’s been perfect and lightweight for what I want; including currency, 8710, medical, annual insurance data and more. Since it’s excel its easy to add more analysis if desired.

Nowadays you see many companies offer a data export option, but I would try it before ever buying to make sure what is exported can be useful.
 
I use LogTenPro. It's cheap ($79 per year) and convenient to me. I still use a paper log as backup though just in case but only update it sporadically based on what on my app. I could probably export my app entries as a backup if I looked into - I just haven't done that yet.
 
Initial Fix said:
years ago (15+) I had bought into an online logbook who’s name I don’t remember. They dropped all support a few years later and offered a very trivial export of data. I ended up having to reenter a bunch of data. I created my excel logbook after that and it’s been perfect and lightweight for what I want; including currency, 8710, medical, annual insurance data and more. Since it’s excel its easy to add more analysis if desired.

Nowadays you see many companies offer a data export option, but I would try it before ever buying to make sure what is exported can be useful.
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Yeah. That's painful.

I've used both export and import for MyFlightBook. In fact, I had an excel spreadsheet that I had built to get all my totals for pages correct in my paper log. With minor modifications I used that data to import into MFB. Every piece of data you put in MFB does come out in their excell and CSV exports including all the flight properties.

The main thing I like about MFB is it's available on my iPhone, iPad and PC. But I'm still using paper as the legal copy.
 
I have been using my flight book for years,I print out a paper copy as a backup. I’m happy with the service.
 
Rgbeard said:
Then what’s the point of doing this at all if you’re still using paper “for real”?
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The math is easier-because the machine does it. And it's a whole lot easier to do an 8510 or answer questions about How much complex time? How much time in type?

That said, I'm one page away from filling my first logbook. So I'm thinking...
 
Rgbeard said:
Then what’s the point of doing this at all if you’re still using paper “for real”?
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Obviously I'm not him, but there are many, many advantages of electronic logbooks other than just a data record.

Currency tracking.
8710 filling out.
Insurance forms (last year I filled out about one a month. MFB made it simple.)
Job applications.
Etc.
 
Rgbeard said:
Then what’s the point of doing this at all if you’re still using paper “for real”?
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They are misguided

Most any place you would want to work for will accept a electronic log book
 
jsstevens said:
Yeah. That's painful.

I've used both export and import for MyFlightBook. In fact, I had an excel spreadsheet that I had built to get all my totals for pages correct in my paper log. With minor modifications I used that data to import into MFB. Every piece of data you put in MFB does come out in their excell and CSV exports including all the flight properties.
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If you upload graphics and pdf files such as scanned copies of endorsements or certificates, the export includes those as well. The only thing it doesn't export, as far as I can tell, are digital signatures in logbook entries. That may be beyond the capabilities of a csv file (there is a field saying the entry was signed and the signature valid. But still waaaay more than one would have with a lost paper log.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
I’m at the end of a paper logbook, it’s a convenient time to consider switching.
What is out there?
I need easy, inexpensive - vs complicated & pricey.
(I have FF, is there one built into one of those versions?)

-needs to have a good backup, even if it’s emailing a digital file to myself
-needs to have running totals readily available for several insurers, medicals.
-would be great if it could catch addition errors ie incompatible totals which plague the paper version.
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I used Excel. I can do all kinds of custom calculations not possible with the standard online tools. I can add columns for odd things like endorsement given, revenue from instruction, money spent on personal flights, reimbursements for business flights, etc...

The only drawback is the inability to record electronic signatures. For flights that requires a signature (such as annuals, IPC etc..) I use the paper logbook. Those are the only things on my paper logbook.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Digital signatures. They've been around for a long time now. You can buy a multimillion dollar house with them. Amazingly even the FAA not only accepts them but uses them!
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I know that.

But how do you get them into YOUR electronic logbook? Do you carry a computer with you?
 
Pinecone said:
I know that.

But how do you get them into YOUR electronic logbook? Do you carry a computer with you?
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Pretty much everybody does, these days. Have you heard of this newfangled gizmo called a "smartphone"? You should see what they can do!
 
sarangan said:
The only drawback is the inability to record electronic signatures. For flights that requires a signature (such as annuals, IPC etc..) I use the paper logbook. Those are the only things on my paper logbook.
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That was phase one of my movement away from paper completely. I think about 6 years ago. Phase 2 is paper for instructors who were not comfortable signing digitally. Last paper entry was in 2019.
 
Pinecone said:
I know that.

But how do you get them into YOUR electronic logbook? Do you carry a computer with you?
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I think @Jim_R answered that but yes, when I fly I have both my phone and my EFB tablet with me.

But I don't necessarily need them. With MFB, I can send a request to an instructor to sign an entry digitally. For example, I had an entry for a dual flight which I didn't care about recording as dual at the time, so we didn't bother. Turns out later I needed it for something, so the instructor signed it 4 months later from 600 miles away. In the same way, if I have a student who uses MFB, I can push logbook entries directly into their logbook at home.
 
RussR said:
That's a whole lot of worry about nothing.

All of the popular electronic logbooks have an import and export function. I know MFB best, so I can talk about it. I get a nightly backup of my logbook, in .csv format, saved to MY Google drive. If @EricBe ever decided to just quit and deleted everything he ever did with MFB, I'd still have my data. It would then be a matter of choosing a new logbook and importing my data to it. Sure there might be a little massaging of the column names or something, but a good electronic logbook (like MFB) should be able to figure it out pretty easily.
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Heaven forbid I should do that! And the point is quite correctly made above: use the backup function; it's YOUR data, it should be portable, and I very explicitly do what I can to facilitate both import and export of it. Heck, the spreadsheet format for the export is something you can use pretty directly as-is, and still get a ton of value from it, using pivot tables and such to get the totals you want.

But to Mark's earlier point that stuff in the cloud never goes away even if you want it to: MyFlightbook is all open source. (https://myflightbook.com/logbook/Public/Developer.aspx). If you wanted to, you could run your own private instance of it.
 
Kitch said:
You can add it in manually. However at that point you don't get the actual gps track log with altitude and ground speed info etc.
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Umm, you can add all of that after the fact. And if you add a GPS log (CSV, GPX, or KML) that is time-stamped (ideally, but not necessarily, including speed) then MyFlightbook can read it to initialize a flight and detect things like night landings and airports.
 
midlifeflyer said:
If you upload graphics and pdf files such as scanned copies of endorsements or certificates, the export includes those as well. The only thing it doesn't export, as far as I can tell, are digital signatures in logbook entries. That may be beyond the capabilities of a csv file (there is a field saying the entry was signed and the signature valid. But still waaaay more than one would have with a lost paper log.
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Correct. The CSV export captures the *fact* and the *data* of the digital signature ("John Smith, certificate #12345, signed this on Oct 7 2021...") But it cannot *be* a digital signature because a CSV file is just a text file that can be edited, so you can't use any encryption or other mechanism to meet the requirements of AC120-78A. Specifically around being undeniable ("it had to have been John who did this"), unalterable, and so forth. Seems to me that ANY system that claims to allow import/export of signatures is lying, unless both the importer and exporter use some common trusted 3rd party as a cryptographic intermediary.
 
Started using the auto start/stop logging/flight track function today. Love it. I keep finding new useful functionality . Great work, sir!
 
This thread reminds me… I need to photograph all my “paper” endorsements and log them into MFB.
 
I use Safe Log, and it keeps a copy in the cloud, and syncs a copy on each device you use. So, I have 4 copies that auto sync.
 
EricBe said:
Correct. The CSV export captures the *fact* and the *data* of the digital signature ("John Smith, certificate #12345, signed this on Oct 7 2021...") But it cannot *be* a digital signature because a CSV file is just a text file that can be edited, so you can't use any encryption or other mechanism to meet the requirements of AC120-78A. Specifically around being undeniable ("it had to have been John who did this"), unalterable, and so forth. Seems to me that ANY system that claims to allow import/export of signatures is lying, unless both the importer and exporter use some common trusted 3rd party as a cryptographic intermediary.
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What about having the signature as a image along with that whole line in the logbook?
 
Jackk said:
What about having the signature as a image along with that whole line in the logbook?
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What would that buy you? Having an image of someone's signature doesn't guarantee authenticity.

Signed,
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Jackk said:
Nor does anything in my old paper log books.
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Next time you close on a house, try printing out your signature and initials a few dozen times, then cut them out and tape them in all the necessary places in the closing paperwork and see how that works out for you.
 
So what is stopping someone from signing another person's name on the paper?
 
Pinecone said:
So what is stopping someone from signing another person's name on the paper?
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Nothing ...which of course, happens. Paper or plastic, fraud and forgery is always a possibility. Where a digital signature has a bit of an advantage over a pen or a graphic is that it leaves a trail. How good that trail is for verification or detection depends on the situation but it's there.
 
Jim_R said:
Next time you close on a house, try printing out your signature and initials a few dozen times, then cut them out and tape them in all the necessary places in the closing paperwork and see how that works out for you.
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My closing paperwork isn’t in my logbook.

I had a DIY digital log where I just took photos and uploaded into a cell for the signature and comments with any dual or other endorsements, this went through 2 FSDOs and more than it’s fair share of employers and insurance types. No factor.
 
Jackk said:
What about having the signature as a image along with that whole line in the logbook?
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A lot of people take pictures of signed paper logbook entries/endorsements, and attach it to the flight. That's totally fine, but getting precise here, that too is recording the *fact* of the signature, but is not itself the signature: your paper logbook is the actual signed logbook in that scenario.

If something has been signed electronically, having an image of that that is also fine, but it's just a representation of the fact of the signature; it is not a signature per se. Please don't confuse them.

To Mark's point above, it's not just the trail that a digital signature offers. A digital signature offers non-refutability (you had to authenticate yourself in order to issue the signature, so if it's there then you can't deny that it was you) - the bar is greatly raised on forgery because someone has to hack into your account. It also offers non-modifiability: if the entry is modified, the signature is invalidated. (Whereas on paper, you could always change a "1' to a "7", or add some instrument approaches that were otherwise blank...) A few other things as well. See https://myflightbook.com/logbook/Public/CFISigs.aspx for gory details of requirements (from AC120-78A) as well as MyFlightbook's methods for compliance.
 
EricBe said:
A lot of people take pictures of signed paper logbook entries/endorsements, and attach it to the flight. That's totally fine, but getting precise here, that too is recording the *fact* of the signature, but is not itself the signature: your paper logbook is the actual signed logbook in that scenario.

If something has been signed electronically, having an image of that that is also fine, but it's just a representation of the fact of the signature; it is not a signature per se. Please don't confuse them.

To Mark's point above, it's not just the trail that a digital signature offers. A digital signature offers non-refutability (you had to authenticate yourself in order to issue the signature, so if it's there then you can't deny that it was you) - the bar is greatly raised on forgery because someone has to hack into your account. It also offers non-modifiability: if the entry is modified, the signature is invalidated. (Whereas on paper, you could always change a "1' to a "7", or add some instrument approaches that were otherwise blank...) A few other things as well. See https://myflightbook.com/logbook/Public/CFISigs.aspx for gory details of requirements (from AC120-78A) as well as MyFlightbook's methods for compliance.
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How do you know that the account under [email protected] really belongs to the person whose name, flight instructor certificate number, and expiration date he entered and uses to sign logbook entries? That is not a problem any different from Joe R. User signing with a CFI's name and other information using a pen, of course, but I wonder if and how MFB or other logbooks that support electronic signatures, if any exist, solve the problem.
 
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