DuPuis Family Cobra Build

Discussion in 'Hangar Talk' started by Ted DuPuis, Aug 3, 2018.

  1. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    My point wasn't saying water won't happen, it's talking about what I need the most. Like I said, wiring is ultimately something I've never had an issue with, although this is the first time I'm making a complete wiring harness basically from scratch.

    When you look at the Pegasus wire it states resistance to oil, gas, grease, and acid. I'm assuming that if it does those it also is resistant to water, although probably to a lesser degree than the Marine stuff. Heat, however, is something I know will be present.
     
  2. SoonerAviator

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    If you've got 250 F+ hitting your exposed wiring directly, you have other issues to deal with. I wouldn't be concerned about that as much. Most of it should be shielded from heat in wire loom anyway for protection as well as appearance.
     
  3. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    Fair point. Most of my wiring will be above the engine. The only wiring close to the exhaust will be the wiring for the starter, and that will still be below it and a good bit away.
     
  4. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    Well the wires I ordered claiming to be Ford Racing were counterfeit. Not 9mm, not Ford, lower quality all around.

    So, Amazon Prime free returns, try again with the right stuff...

    01396089-9C9C-4592-80E2-F5C0CEC13597.jpeg
     
  5. jsstevens

    jsstevens Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    But they were a pretty color of blue...
     
  6. Fiveslide

    Fiveslide Line Up and Wait

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    I recently bought my kid a pw50 that needed quite a bit of new parts. I ordered a bunch of crap off Amazon and learned even though a part shows up in a search for what you need, and says in the description will work for the bike, that doesn't mean the vendor is honest. You got to read the reviews, that's where people tell you if you're going to get a part that isn't correct, because they already got burned buying the crap that won't work.

    Read the reviews, every time.
     
  7. Sac Arrow

    Sac Arrow Touchdown! Greaser!

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  8. SoonerAviator

    SoonerAviator Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    IMG_0414-1.jpg
    Definitely not the Ford blue, lol. Might have matched the paint on the newer electric blue Mustangs, etc. The authentic Ford racing wires (in blue) are a soft blue.
     
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  9. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    #metoo

    Yeah. Not even a good knock-off. And they're maybe 8mm wires, definitely not 9mm.

    Looks like Summit is the best pricing on the real deal that I'll want. I already left a 1 star review and filed a request for a return with Amazon.
     
  10. 3393RP

    3393RP En-Route

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    If you have something going on that heats wire past 105°C (221°F) you have much bigger problems that 275°F insulation isn't going to mitigate.

    Overthinking? No kidding.
     
  11. 3393RP

    3393RP En-Route

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    That's the one I have. Ted, Ancor makes adhesive lined heat shrink connectors. They make the connection waterproof. I've been using Ancor wire and connectors for 20 years and have never had a single corroded connection.
     
  12. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    Overthinking is what I do. :)

    But yes, good points, that's probably the stuff to go with (both in terms of wiring and connectors). And realistically I should get a good crimping tool, too (been using vice grips for years).

    Time to order some more stuff...
     
  13. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    I'm getting my next shopping list together to include the Ancor wire (10 gauge, 12 gauge, and 16 gauge) as well as Ancor connectors.

    Ancor makes a crimp tool:

    https://www.amazon.com/Ancor-701030...E60KAYTFEK9&psc=1&refRID=QDA3H5D6GE60KAYTFEK9

    although there was the previous recommendation of the Greenlee crimp tool as well.

    My friend is starting work on the distributor modification as well. I've already shown the old dust cap that is getting repurposed to cap it:

    [​IMG]

    You can see here how he's started to shrink the distributor shaft:

    [​IMG]

    And practiced cutting threads (24 TPI) into the distributor. He's next going to turn it down to the proper major diameter and then actually cut the threads:

    [​IMG]

    Incidentally, the actual major diameter should be around that next ridge, which should be about perfect for clearing items under the hood.

    With my mom visiting last weekend and then us being out of town this coming weekend, progress has been slow. But getting there...
     
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  14. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    My friend finished up the distributor converted into an oil pump drive. Here's the result:

    [​IMG]

    I'm really happy with that. Should work perfectly.
     
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  15. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    One thing that I haven't figured out yet, but need to, is a fuse block. I see a lot of fuse blocks out there but most of them are junk brands. Does anyone have recommendations for "good" brands to go with?
     
  16. SoonerAviator

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    You aren't using the Ron Francis wiring harness kit? It comes with the fuse box. However, I don't know what makes a junk fuse box unless it just really had poorly molded plastic or excess play in the receptacles. Are you using modern relays and ATC fuses? ATC mini?
     
  17. Fiveslide

    Fiveslide Line Up and Wait

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    I liked Blue Sea products for the boat.

    https://www.amazon.com/Blue-Sea-Systems-Blade-Blocks/dp/B01BXTXV1Q
     
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  18. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    I was thinking specifically about a marine one and saw those as well. One thing I haven't decided yet is the fuse block orientation and location, which would influence how ideal one of those would be. So I need to look at that some more. Maybe I'm not ready to do wiring just yet...
     
  19. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    It's been a while since I've posted an update on the Cobra, but that's because I haven't done much. I've gotten some various bits and pieces but I haven't actually made progress that could be considered moving forward in terms of progress. Lots of thinking about wiring harnesses, ordering various bits and pieces I will need. But I've been working on a lot of other projects outside while the weather is ideal, and now that my son won't have a last day of school this year (at school, anyway) I don't have that timeline. But I'll get back to it.

    Big thing is that the distributor modified into a smaller oil pump drive arrived. My friend made this on the lathe, and it came out perfect:

    [​IMG]

    The picture makes it look dirtier than it is but I didn't want to polish it up too much and have it stand out. It fits in the area perfectly and won't take attention away from the stacks.

    I think the part I need to work on next is figuring out where to locate the AC compressor in the trunk and then start figuring out hoses for it, while also mounting the AC evaporator and running those coolant hoses. Once I do that and then plug in the coolant temp sender, I'll be able to put water in the cooling system. Really I could prime the engine if I wanted at this point, although I don't really want to do that until I'm close to ready to start it.
     
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  20. MIFlyer

    MIFlyer Cleared for Takeoff PoA Supporter

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    Ted, I can't recall if this was EFI or Carb? regardless, what did you choose for fuel line? I'm torn on my project between
    Braided EFI hose with AN fittings from tank to TBI
    Nicop lines with flares and EFI rated rubber hose for the transitions
    PTFE hose
     
  21. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    This is an EFI setup. I ended up going with braided stainless PTFE hose with the appropriate fittings from Summit Racing (note: PTFE hose requires special fittings that have ferrules as the fittings will otherwise slip off the hoses). I used -6 AN sized lines and fittings the whole way from the tank to the fuel rail and back (a return system).

    Honestly, for your application (or for mine) I don't think it much matters whether you do rubber or PTFE. PTFE will theoretically last longer, withstand higher temperatures, and be able to withstand more fuel types (especially those with higher alcohol content). None of those probably matter much for your Scout. I would go with a fuel injection type hose just because the price difference isn't much, but as for rubber vs. PTFE.
     
  22. MIFlyer

    MIFlyer Cleared for Takeoff PoA Supporter

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    Thanks. That summit hose got really poor reviews on the hose ends. Let me know how it was to work with.

    Easiest would be the earls vaporguard and just run 3/8 both ways. Not braided, but, meh.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     
  23. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    The PTFE hose and fittings I would say was "Ok" to work with. The main thing is that you have to somehow keep the braided stainless part from going every direction when you cut it. And keep in mind it's tough stuff, so cutting it requires some pretty sharp snips or an angle grinder/Dremel cutting wheel (I used the latter). If you wrap the area you're going to cut in some kind of tape (packing tape is probably best since it's not inherently bendy/flexible) and then cut, it's not so bad. You then have to get the hose end over the braiding, put on the ferrule, and then screw it all together.

    It's the sort of thing that if you did it regularly would be easy and take you two minutes. If you're doing it once, expect to poke yourself with the sharp stainless wire and curse at it. But the end result seems very strong. The ferrule does make the assembly harder, and if you went with standard rubber hose you'd still have to slip the hose end over the stainless part, but the assembly would otherwise be easier.

    Would I do it again? Yes, I think I would.
     
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  24. SoonerAviator

    SoonerAviator Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    I always use painters tape to hold the SS braiding while cutting. I leave the tape on while filling the ferrule until I have it started over the edge of the SS, then pull tape off and thread the ferrule on the rest of the way.
     
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  25. MIFlyer

    MIFlyer Cleared for Takeoff PoA Supporter

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    It might be too late, but I bought a kit of Wirefy connectors (crimp with heat shrink). They also have butt joints that have a meltable solder. The connections were easy to make, super strong and the heat shrink stuff seems like really good quality.
     
  26. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    I ended up buying the Greenlee tool that someone recommended on this thread with Ancor marine connectors. Seems like it makes sense to do.

    I accidentally ordered both the Greenlee and the Ancor crimp tools. The Ancor crimp tool could go all the way up to 26-gauge wire and had longer arms, but was a lot more expensive and didn't feel to be any better quality, so I returned it (yay for Amazon Prime).

    I do have 100% of the stuff I need to make the car actually run. Of course, it's not all hooked up. Since the runway is current priority I'll just keep working on that and supporting my wife's work on her outdoor projects. We got some socially distant mulch earlier - phone in your order and they drive the front end loader to your truck. Easy and you don't come into contact with anyone. No going in the office - they have big signs everywhere saying not to do it.
     
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  27. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    Because I make everything hard on myself (and have a particular order I want to do things in) I'm now thinking about the air conditioning before I start on electrical.

    Originally I was planning on putting the compressor in the trunk. Well, it doesn't quite fit. So I am going to have to make/weld in some more brackets to mount the compressor. I'm working on the best way to accomplish this, but I think I have it figured out.

    One question I've asked the company is what they expect as far as environmentals. The specs are not exactly like what we have for avionics in terms of DO-160 or the like. So I've asked the question of whether the compressor needs to be kept isolated from road grime etc. or if being located behind the axle will be ok. Given the amount of driving the car will get and how much it will be in the rain (very little), I doubt this will be a problem. But what I think I might do is weld in some cross braces for those verticals in front of and in back of the gas tank, and then position the compressor above the lower portion of the tank, forward of the fuel level sending unit (which is the one in the center, in case that wasn't apparent).

    Then I could make a bubble in the trunk area because the unit will stand a little tall.

    I thought about a few other options but I think that will be best. And if the manufacturer says I need to protect the compressor from the elements, then I'll reevaluate and maybe do the drop trunk.

    [​IMG]
     
  28. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    Maybe I'll add in brackets like this (in yellow):

    upload_2020-4-8_14-12-5.png

    And here's the compressor:

    [​IMG]
     
  29. SoonerAviator

    SoonerAviator Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    That thing seems enormous compared to it's engine-driven counterpart.
     
  30. -KLB-

    -KLB- Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I may have been looking at the wrong spec sheet, but I saw something calling for 425 CFM of airflow over the case @ 6 inches?
     
  31. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    I asked them about that. Basically the airflow requirement stems from the need to keep the unit under 90C. At 90C the overtemp sensor trips, at which point the AC quits working. Ironically, it's best to keep the AC compressor in an air-conditioned environment. :confused:

    I have been thinking about how I want to handle that, and the more I think about it the more I also wonder how I want to go about this, since the trunk normally doesn't get airflow and obviously the last thing I want is for the AC to kick off on a 100F day sitting at a stoplight (that's kinda the whole point of having it).

    They told me that the unit is not rated for use in an environmentally unprotected environment, so the trunk remains a good place to put it, I just have to figure out then what I need to do to mount it and make clearance for it elsewhere.

    The drop trunk would be the most logical thing to do, I mostly just don't want to. But I've also considered putting the compressor where I originally thought to put it (in the very forward of the trunk, just behind the driver and passenger in the center) and then putting a small fiberglass bubble over the center, potentially with an air scoop.

    If I left the unit in the trunk I could always mount a bilge pump of some sort to route some amount of cooling air to it. But I also don't want to have an easy way for mice or other critters to get in the trunk, not that I'm hugely concerned with that since it will always be garaged, but it's something to think about.

    But this is definitely a situation where I've added complexity to the car (with HVAC) and then added further complexity (with an electric AC compressor) that caused more complexity (bigger alternator requirements and then having to do some modifications to mount the compressor someplace). As they say on the forum, I've strayed off the reservation quite a bit.

    Oh wait, I'm Ted. Somehow that's not surprising to, well, anyone (I think).
     
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  32. 3393RP

    3393RP En-Route

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    That's a hermetic compressor, the same type that's in your home outdoor condensing unit, exposed to the weather for the last fifteen years. It would be better off mounted on the frame with constant airflow around it than confined in the trunk.
     
  33. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    You make a valid point, although who knows whether MasterFlux is designing these compressors to the same standards as the home HVAC units that sit outdoors for their entire lives. I don't know whether the materials, coatings, paints, all of those are up to that.

    But then again, this is a street/race car that will never see salt and rarely see rain. So, maybe I'm better off taking the risk there and going against the install manual. It would certainly make my life easier.
     
  34. 3393RP

    3393RP En-Route

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    A hermetic compressor is built like a tank. The electrical connections are leakproof, because the compressor inside the hermetic enclosure is sitting in an oil bath.

    It will withstand the conditions you intend to drive in with no problem.
     
  35. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    Those are all good points, I'm more thinking about the external connections and coatings rather than the internal ones. I took a look at the electrical connectors and while there's a cover over them, they are certainly not any kind of sealed connectors like what you find on modern cars.

    Of course, the sorts of connectors they have (non weatherpak/etc.) existed on cars for decades up until the late 80s or so, maybe 90s depending on the vehicle. While these more standard connectors did eventually start to have issues, those usually came after some time and some level of driving in rain and especially salt. Like I said, that's not the sort of environment this car is likely to see much of.

    One of the vendors who I've used for some parts (turn signal setup, gas pedal, and one or two other things that I forget now) also sells a drop trunk mod. Here's a picture:

    upload_2020-4-9_7-21-54.png

    The mod drops the trunk 5", and is popular because of the extra trunk space it offers. I don't think it particularly adds to the aesthetics but it is a trunk. This would provide me the depth to install the compressor in the trunk without interference. However, this compressor is fairly heavy and has vibrations associated with it, so I can't bolt it to the aluminum and expect it to last. At 5" deep, it will be close if I try to add in extra bracing underneath the drop trunk to support the compressor. If I simply put in those extra supports and bolt the compressor straight to it, that would be more straightforward, then I just make a cutout from the normal trunk panel where the compressor sticks in.

    The more I think about it the more I think I'm better off just putting the compressor out in the open environment. But I need to think about it some more.
     
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  36. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    I got an eMail back from Masterflux on the compressor. The person said that the compressor is more environmentally tolerant than the circuit board (logical) but that the connectors are still exposed. Well, true, they are, but the connectors have a cover, a rubber seal below the cover, and a small opening to go through.

    So my thought is that @3393RP is right - the compressor will ultimately be better off sitting in the wind, and then I can just make an effort to keep the wiring protected. However I will need some more metal to make brackets for that, which I don't have now. Next trip out into the wild (sometime next week, I suppose) I'll pick some up during a trip to either Tractor Supply or Home Depot for other items.

    I also started work on my spark plug wire boots. Since I'm having to do something custom, the end result isn't super pretty, but it will be effective I think. I'll post pictures tomorrow when I finish up the job up.

    Then I spent some time figuring out and welding up the alternator tensioner bracket. I needed to add a second support point so that this would hold tension appropriately. Got that figured out and welded up, sprayed paint on it, and tomorrow I figure I'll install the whole thing (unless I decide to change the color from red to black... which the more I think about it the more I think I might do).

    I spent some time looking at the vacuum ports and coolant hose routing for the heater core. I got 1/8" vacuum ports but I think 3/16" is the size I should have gotten. Not a big deal there - couple new fittings and some more hose is all. But the coolant hoses looks to be more of an issue going between the stacks of throttle bodies and also having the throttle pedestal to think about. I'll get it figured but it's not entirely straightforward, and needs to be completed before I work out much of the required wiring, etc. No matter how you look at it, the vee area won't be as clean as it is right now. I suppose that's ok (too late now now matter how you look at it).
     
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  37. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    Spent some time today messing around with the Cobra. I’m about ready to install the spark plug wires after putting on the 135 degree boots, and need to make the spacers for the crank sensor but know what I need to do there. The alternator bracket is in good shape, just need a tensioning bolt.

    My next big decision is what to do with the coolant hoses for the heater core. I can run them in the vee between the throttle bodies, but then when opening the hood they’ll be obvious. I could route them under the exhaust manifolds to keep them out of sight, but then they’d be long, probably difficult to “burp” air bubbles, and difficult to service. So I’m thinking about that.

    Really what I need to do next is get the AC compressor mounted, but I’m lacking the metal for that.
     
  38. -KLB-

    -KLB- Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Polish up some stainless steel tubes and mount them centered on fancy brackets down the center? Then shorter hoses at both ends?
     
  39. SoonerAviator

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    I’d just route it to the fender straight off the water pump and keep it out of the valley. No need to add a bunch of stuff into the valley. Pic for reference.

    [​IMG]
     
  40. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    Those are some good thoughts, I need to play around with it some more tomorrow. One issue is the location of the hose connections in the heater core - facing the driver's side, basically in the center of the car left to right, slightly biased towards the passenger side. But, I'll look at it some more - maybe there's a way to work with that that won't be unsightly.

    The vee itself isn't polished or anything special, but having it cluttered with ugly standard black rubber coolant hoses does take away from the beauty of the individual throttle bodies. The idea of some sort of stainless pipe (or even braided stainless hose) going through instead would definitely be an improvement. I'll play with it more tomorrow and see what I can come up with. Going along the passenger side I think would be an improvement if that looks like it will work - maybe have it go along the AC hoses.