DUI reporting question

[DUI reporting question]

Okay so here is the thing. I renewed my medical in November of last year and I am an airline pilot. I did something really stupid back in March and had too much to drink on a night I was already tired. Instead of calling uber I drove home, fell asleep and crashed my car into a tree. I was knocked out. Ambulance happened to be right there so they arrived first and police arrived quite a bit after. I guess I woke up briefly(don't remember) and they asked if I had been drinking. I said no, they found out nothing was broken or cut so they decided to take me to the hospital just to check me out. I was very nervous and all over the place so they sedated me. By the time the cops showed up I was back asleep. The ambulance driver said he thought he smelled alcohol so the cop ordered a blood draw(no warrant and they couldn't wake me up). Anyhow I got to the hospital, stayed about 2 hours and was discharged as I had no serious injuries. The cops never came to the hospital because they did not have enough evidence at that point to make an arrest. Fast forward I ended up being charged with a DUI about a month later. Now the cop never suspended my license nor did he arrest me as he didn't have any probable cause. I never had to report for a license suspension because it never happened. The blood evidence ended up getting thrown out(was over the limit according to the blood test but the cop didn't follow proper procedure). We filed a motion to dismiss after the blood evidence was tossed and won because there simply just wasn't any evidence. My lawyer said I can get the record of the charges that were filed sealed/expunged since I was not convicted and the judge felt there was not enough evidence to warrant the charges and dismissed them. That motion is coming up this week and he says he always wins them under these circumstances. Now I go in for my medical in the next 2 months. I never had to report a license suspension because it never was suspended, I never had to report a conviction because I was never convicted. Here is where things get tricky. Technically I was never arrested. I went to the hospital, got checked out, and was released to my significant other. The form asks if you have ever been arrested or convicted. I was not convicted and I was not arrested. They did file charges but they simply sent me a notice in the mail to appear in court at this date and time. In my mind as long as this gets sealed(as it should) then I am in the clear and won't be lying on my medical. I can list the visit to the hospital doc as just a car accident and was checked out and cleared. I was never admitted to the hospital at all. I even had a doctor write me a note that said he examined me after a car wreck and I was physically fine. I know I really dodged a bullet on this one. So any experts out there is this legally sound? Look I learned from my mistakes and just want to move on with my life. I really don't want to deal with all the hoops especially if they tried to make me enter that HIMS program. I don't have a drinking problem I just did something really stupid that one night. I took this as a wake up call and now take uber any night I go out and have a couple drinks. I never drink more than 2 beers on an overnight and half the time I don't drink at all on layovers.

 

[Clip4]

What state did this occur?

 

[murphey]

We have 2 experienced AME on this board that can provide expert info. The rest of us are amatuers. Just remember, state records being expunged is irrelevant to the Feds. Remember what question 18 asks. You need an expert aviation lawyer, not traffic lawyer.

 

[AggieMike88]

Agree with Murphey... this isn't the right venue for this question.

You mention you are an airline pilot. Doesn't the union or the airline have some resources that can provide aid in situations such as this? Something offline from the internet and the FAA?

One of the experienced AME's that Murphey references is Dr. Bruce Chien. He is a complex case AME and has worked with several revenue pilots who ran afoul of alcohol and other substances. Based in Peoria, IL. And you start the contact process via his website www.aeromedicaldoc.com

 

[Living Single]

So I have read the application very carefully, especially box 18. Honestly I do not remember much about the accident. The official accident report states I was groggy and confused but it never mentioned me being unconscious at all. I honestly don't know if I was or not but it mentioned me talking the whole time until they sedated me and I was responsive when they got me out of the car. I truly don't believe anything in question 18 applies to me. I have never been diagnosed with any substance abuse or mental disorder. blood was not taken at the hospital as I declined any further treatment and the doctor said I was good to go. I truly believe I dodged a bullet. Hopefully one of the experts can advise further. This happened in utah

 

[DUI Reporting Question]

On a side note I also want to keep this off any type of radar. I know the union can definitely help but I want to keep this as quiet as possible. I don't want to back myself into a corner if I don't have to so I figure anonymous advice is a good place to start as I know there are experts here. I do not want to risk screwing everything that I have worked hard for up. Not having a dui conviction is a huge burden off my shoulder as I will never have to report that on any application and I wasn't even arrested. Now I just need to get myself down the final stretch and get my medical squared away and move on with my life and chalk it up as a lesson learned. I am so lucky I didn't have to go to rape school over this incident

 

[sniff]

On a side note I also want to keep this off any type of radar. I know the union can definitely help but I want to keep this as quiet as possible. I don't want to back myself into a corner if I don't have to so I figure anonymous advice is a good place to start as I know there are experts here. I do not want to risk screwing everything that I have worked hard for up. Not having a dui conviction is a huge burden off my shoulder as I will never have to report that on any application and I wasn't even arrested. Now I just need to get myself down the final stretch and get my medical squared away and move on with my life and chalk it up as a lesson learned. I am so lucky I didn't have to go to rape school over this incident

Are you going to omit the hospital visit?

 

[DUI Reporting Question]

Are you going to omit the hospital visit?

No I will report it as a visit to a health professional. I was NOT admitted to the hospital and is therefore not reportable as an admission to a hospital. I was evaluated, everything checked out and I declined further tests. I will list his name and address and what I went for(car accident evaluation) as required by the application

 

[Ghery]

Call Bruce. And say nothing more here.

 

[murphey]

On a side note I also want to keep this off any type of radar. I know the union can definitely help but I want to keep this as quiet as possible. I don't want to back myself into a corner if I don't have to so I figure anonymous advice is a good place to start as I know there are experts here. I do not want to risk screwing everything that I have worked hard for up. Not having a dui conviction is a huge burden off my shoulder as I will never have to report that on any application and I wasn't even arrested. Now I just need to get myself down the final stretch and get my medical squared away and move on with my life and chalk it up as a lesson learned. I am so lucky I didn't have to go to rape school over this incident

Then stop posting here and contact either Dr Chien or an aviation lawyer.

 

[jordane93]

Contact ALPA

 

[EminiTrader]

"Stop Posting Here". Why? he's anonymous..

 

[Rushie]

If you haven't already you need to get a copy of the medical records from your ER visit. There might be some notes from the doctor about the ambulance driver saying he smelled alcohol or a possible LOC. No matter how you report the visit or if the charges are expunged you need to assume that if there ever is an event, anything recorded about the incident will be uncovered. I wouldn't even rule out this anonymous admission being tracked via your ISP and what not. If the Feds haven't got that far yet into using our digital footprints against us, they will eventually.

Well you did get the notice in the mail about the DUI. So there you have it. It would be nice to know what exactly your BAC was. If high, you have tolerance and actually do have an alcohol problem and should go the whole HIMS route that you want to avoid. I'm not saying I disagree with Glenn's advice either though, I agree with the others in this thread, that we aren't experts and you should contact one of the two AMEs on this board and a good aviation attorney. Aviation... as opposed to regular. One that gets the FAA stuff.

PS edit: I revise what I said based on what Comanchepilot says. A LOCAL attorney apparently is what you need to define whether or not you were "arrested".

 

[Rushie]

"Stop Posting Here". Why? he's anonymous..

Not really unless he's going through TOR or uses a good proxy or something.

 

[Palmpilot]

Not really unless he's going through TOR or uses a good proxy or something.

Many ISPs use dynamic IP addressing. For example, AT&T changes my IP address every time the power is cycled on my Uverse DSL modem.

 

[Rushie]

Many ISPs use dynamic IP addressing. For example, AT&T changes my IP address every time the power is cycled on my Uverse DSL modem.

Hmmm true. I have no idea if that offers protection or if it's still somehow recorded and can be tracked. This is getting above my level of cyber expertise.

PS a little googling tells me that tracing the IP will get you to your ISP. From there it's possible if your ISP has log records of who had what dynamic IP at a particular time they can nail you but normally law enforcement would have to get a warrant or court order to access that information and ISPs may not retain the records for very long. So in theory yes they can but in reality if OP augers in ten years from now I would guess the chance of this anonymous post being uncovered would be small.

 

[comanchepilot]

This so damn easy: answer the question.

Parse all the and and ors and exceptions - and answer the question. It is a yes or a no. Simple as that.

From the facts I have seen, you can easily support a No response here and have the regional surgeon or counsel not bat an eyelash at it.

The real issue is 61.15 - and absent a conviction or MVA, no reporting is required there either.

The only thing I can see is if the DMV took ANY action in response to the arrest- if it didn't - then the answer is No. And absent any action, even a 'automatic suspend until resolution of court case,' no reporting is required.

This one of those issues where the attempt to have so much specificity in the information request has created a loophole.

If the answer really is no, then there is no reason to play DNS tracking games- the answer is no - and move on. Doesn't matter what the FAA can track down or not.

The simple question to be answered is was the citation for a DUI charge an arrest under local law - sometimes they are an automatic arrest even if no booking occurs. An aviation lawyer cannot answer that - only a local lawyer who does lots of DUIs.

 

[MassPilot]

He admits in his post that he actually did commit DUI, which one could argue that is in itself an abuse of alcohol making the correct answer to 18.o. "Yes".

 

[DUI Reporting Question]

I don't think getting one DUI constitutes an alcohol problem. The good news is I paid for this ER visit in cash and I didn't have to be diagnosed with anything. I paid the hospitals cash rate upfront before I left. I know people that have made one mistake and got a DUI but are not alcoholics. A lot of airline pilots however get forced into the HIMS program that do not need to be there. I am hoping to avoid this because forcing someone to participate in a program that forces you to believe in some type of god and pray is wrong. Especially when they don't have a problem which I don't. My bac was .17 and I don't even drink all that often and if I do it's usually a couple beers

 

[comanchepilot]

I don't think getting one DUI constitutes an alcohol problem. The good news is I paid for this ER visit in cash and I didn't have to be diagnosed with anything. I paid the hospitals cash rate upfront before I left. I know people that have made one mistake and got a DUI but are not alcoholics. A lot of airline pilots however get forced into the HIMS program that do not need to be there. I am hoping to avoid this because forcing someone to participate in a program that forces you to believe in some type of god and pray is wrong. Especially when they don't have a problem which I don't. My bac was .17 and I don't even drink all that often and if I do it's usually a couple beers

if you were still conscious at 0.17 . .. you have been drinking a bit the last few months.

If you reached 0.17 and had passed out which caused the accident, maybe having a professional help you evaluate your drinking habits might make sense- cause even a whole bottle of wine with dinner will not get you to 0.17 after a couple of hours.

The issue here is not the DUI - the issue is the drinking habit that led to the DUI. So the comment that one DUI does not mean I have a problem is exactly what a person with a drinking problem tells themselves.

If you have been drinking and driving - and have been doing so for while - and got caught once- does not mean you don't have a drinking problem.

Only you can answer the question over how much you have been drinking - but in my opinion, having enough alcohol to reach the level of intoxication more than once a week seems to indicate an issue that needs examination. Sitting at a bar in a restaurant with spouse or friends once week and having 3 or 4 drinks over the course of two hours with a meal in a social setting is not indicative of a problem. You stretch those facts much beyond in any direction [ # of drinks, # of nights, no meal, etc] and you start seeing a potential for abuse.

 

[comanchepilot]

He admits in his post that he actually did commit DUI, which one could argue that is in itself an abuse of alcohol making the correct answer to 18.o. "Yes".

Nope = he's not a doc and anyone can have a different opinion on that- the FAS has no guidance on what constitutes abuse of alcohol. Thats facts and circumstances test.

The question is specific and direct, both of them are. You don't have a problem with abuse of alcohol until you a) admit you do or b) someone with a medical training has told you you do.

 

[MassPilot]

Nope = he's not a doc and anyone can have a different opinion on that- the FAS has no guidance on what constitutes abuse of alcohol. Thats facts and circumstances test.

The question is specific and direct, both of them are. You don't have a problem with abuse of alcohol until you a) admit you do or b) someone with a medical training has told you you do.

Makes sense

 

[Tarheelpilot]

If you were charged for dui the FAA will find out. If you don't report it and especially if you so no to question 18 they will revoke your certificate. Then you'll get to do hims and retake all your checkrides.

 

[AggieMike88]

The issue here is not the DUI - the issue is the drinking habit that led to the DUI.

@DUI Reporting Question -- Joe has got it right. And your position of "this doesn't really apply to me" what many airmen state because they are focused on the singular incident and not what caused the incident or what is going to get them wrapped around the FAA axle.

The FAA's focus is finding (and trying to help) people who have built up enough tolerance to alcohol. This doesn't happen with one incident. This happens over time. This happens because the airman has a history of alcohol consumption and it is this history that the FAA wants to know about.

Like many other airmen, the singular accident you discuss in your first post is the big indicator that you have a problem that needs to be addressed. Especially if you wish to continue to fly for a living.

Your accident should be looked at as a wake up call. And a shake-you-hard-and-slap-your-face wake up call.

While I really do hear your side of the story, what is so bad about getting the proper help through Dr. Bruce Chien, getting ahead of any FAA or employer action, and making sure this doesn't become and evil can of worms that ends your flying career? You have invested so much to get to where you are, why jeopardize it by being stubborn?

 

[comanchepilot]

If you were charged for dui the FAA will find out. If you don't report it and especially if you so no to question 18 they will revoke your certificate. Then you'll get to do hims and retake all your checkrides.

the question in your scenario becomes what is an arrest? Being charged with a DUI offense does not mean that you have been arrested. The FAA did not use the word: "have you been charged" with an offense- they ask a very specific questions - two actually:
1. Have you been arrested for an offense involing driving while impaired by alcohol and
2. Have you been subject to any administrative sanction on your driver license, including alcohol diversion programs etc.

Given the facts we have:
a. there was no formal arrest as we understand what that means - no detention, no fingerprinting etc-[apparently];
b. there was no seizure of a license or other action taken
c. he was charged with an offense involving alcohol and driving - how he was forced to appear and respond is the real question here.

Only a local attorney can tell you if he was effectively arrested and released on OR by responding to the summons. If that answer is yes, then he was 'arrested,' if the answer in the local jurisdiction is no to that question, then he was not arrested - and he can respond no and have a legitimate defense. Even the case law around 61.15 and the medicals makes this an impossible issue given that the FAA itself has no definition of what an arrest is. . . .

 

[Rushie]

While I really do hear your side of the story, what is so bad about getting the proper help through Dr. Bruce Chien, getting ahead of any FAA or employer action, and making sure this doesn't become and evil can of worms that ends your flying career? You have invested so much to get to where you are, why jeopardize it by being stubborn?

What's so bad about it is he will have to give up alcohol completely 100% if he ends up in the HIMS program.

Is that whence comes the reluctance?

 

[comanchepilot]

@AggieMike88 - bingo. Also - don't display one of the attitudes the FAA is looking for in airmen to slap them down hard.

While you may not have to disclose this instance you would be adding what is the equivalent of a link in an accident chain by ignoring the event. . ..

 

[AggieMike88]

While you may not have to disclose this instance you would be adding what is the equivalent of a link in an accident chain by ignoring the event. . ..

Yup.... and the poster pilot for this could be Andreas Lubitz

 

[Ravioli]

Did I miss the usual advice for him to do a CONSULT with an AME, get some advice, and stay off the interweb?

Oh.. @Ghery got it in there 20 or so posts ago.

 

[AggieMike88]

@Ravioli post 3 and 4

 

[Palmpilot]

...the FAS has no guidance on what constitutes abuse of alcohol....

Wouldn't the following excerpt from the MedXpress instructions constitute such guidance?

"Substance abuse" includes the following: use of an illegal substance; use of a substance or substances in situations in which such use is physically hazardous; or misuse of a substance when such misuse has impaired health or social or occupational functioning. "Substances" include alcohol, PCP, marijuana, cocaine, amphetamines, barbiturates, opiates, and other psychoactive chemicals.​

(The same instruction appeared on the paper 8500-8 form before MedXpress was implemented.)

 

[comanchepilot]

Wouldn't the following excerpt from the MedXpress instructions constitute such guidance?

"Substance abuse" includes the following: use of an illegal substance; use of a substance or substances in situations in which such use is physically hazardous; or misuse of a substance when such misuse has impaired health or social or occupational functioning. "Substances" include alcohol, PCP, marijuana, cocaine, amphetamines, barbiturates, opiates, and other psychoactive chemicals.​

(The same instruction appeared on the paper 8500-8 form before MedXpress was implemented.)

yes, it would - but it does not cover the question at issue - sadly.

What is an arrest?

 

[Ravioli]

Actually, if this situation is real, you should self-ground.

You had an event that may or not have been LOC, alcohol was involved, an automobile was damaged, EMT's and ER doctors were involved, LEO's and the court system are somewhat aware.

And your question is about answering questions for the medical?

Strange days, indeed.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

the question in your scenario becomes what is an arrest? Being charged with a DUI offense does not mean that you have been arrested. The FAA did not use the word: "have you been charged" with an offense- they ask a very specific questions - two actually:
1. Have you been arrested for an offense involing driving while impaired by alcohol and
2. Have you been subject to any administrative sanction on your driver license, including alcohol diversion programs etc.

Given the facts we have:
a. there was no formal arrest as we understand what that means - no detention, no fingerprinting etc-[apparently];
b. there was no seizure of a license or other action taken
c. he was charged with an offense involving alcohol and driving - how he was forced to appear and respond is the real question here.

Only a local attorney can tell you if he was effectively arrested and released on OR by responding to the summons. If that answer is yes, then he was 'arrested,' if the answer in the local jurisdiction is no to that question, then he was not arrested - and he can respond no and have a legitimate defense. Even the case law around 61.15 and the medicals makes this an impossible issue given that the FAA itself has no definition of what an arrest is. . . .

So I'll give you a real life example in easy to follow sequence of events

1. A pilot goes out with friends and has a few adult beverages.
2.on the way home he's involved in a single car fender bender
3. Cops arrive and suspect dui
4. He gets trucked off to hospital by ems
5. Cop gets blood pulled at er
6. No enforcement action is taken the night of accident.
7. About a month later he gets a phone call from his wife because the cops came by to serve a warrant for dui.
8. He calls his lawyer.
9. Lawyer has case dismissed in a reasonably quick time frame because of technical issues with the case.
10. Lawyer has records sealed/esponged and assures him no way anybody could find out about the dui charges.
11. At the next medical he answers no to question 18.
12. Three months after renewing his medical he gets a friendly letter from the FAA asking for his medical and all of his certificates.

18 months after revocation he was issued a new medical through hims and was able to start flight training. 4 months after that he had completed all of his written and practical tests starting with private pilot.

He was never arrested nor was he cited at the time of the accident. He was charged at a later date, his lawyer took care of him and got everything dismissed/sealed. There was no administrative action taken on his drivers license.

You folks can say what you want but I'm telling you if you get charged with dui and then don't report it you are absolutely gambling with your careers and the odds are not in your favor.

Furthermore to the OP. At a bac of .17 I can tell you a few things
1. You have ****ty judgment
2. If you were able to walk to your car and drive with a .17 you are more than an occasional social drinker
3. Stop driving after you have been drinking.
4. You should get the council of a respected aviation attorney because you are playing with fire snd while reporting is a ***** a revocation would most likely end your careeer.

 

[Palmpilot]

yes, it would - but it does not cover the question at issue - sadly.

I would think that driving a car with a BAC of 0.17 would fall under the heading of "use of a substance or substances in situations in which such use is physically hazardous."

What is an arrest?

I don't see how it would be possible to improve on what you have already written on that question!

 

[jordane93]

So I'll give you a real life example in easy to follow sequence of events

1. A pilot goes out with friends and has a few adult beverages.
2.on the way home he's involved in a single car fender bender
3. Cops arrive and suspect dui
4. He gets trucked off to hospital by ems
5. Cop gets blood pulled at er
6. No enforcement action is taken the night of accident.
7. About a month later he gets a phone call from his wife because the cops came by to serve a warrant for dui.
8. He calls his lawyer.
9. Lawyer has case dismissed in a reasonably quick time frame because of technical issues with the case.
10. Lawyer has records sealed/esponged and assures him no way anybody could find out about the dui charges.
11. At the next medical he answers no to question 18.
12. Three months after renewing his medical he gets a friendly letter from the FAA asking for his medical and all of his certificates.

18 months after revocation he was issued a new medical through hims and was able to start flight training. 4 months after that he had completed all of his written and practical tests starting with private pilot.

He was never arrested nor was he cited at the time of the accident. He was charged at a later date and his lawyer took care of him and got everything dismissed and sealed. There was no administrative action taken on his drivers license either.

You folks can say what you want but I'm telling you if you get charged with dui and then don't report it you are absolutely gambling with your careers and the odds are not in your favor.

Furthermore to the OP. At a bac of .17 I can tell you a few things
1. You have ****ty judgment
2. If you were able to walk to your car and drive with a .17 you are more than an occasional social drinker
3. Stop driving after you have been drinking.
4. You should get the council of a respected aviation attorney because you are playing with fire snd while reporting is a ***** a revocation would most likely end your careeer.

This. I'd suggest not playing, "well technically..." with the FAA

 

[DUI Reporting Question]

If he had a warrant for his arrest then that has a lot more chance of showing up, especially if he ended up getting arrested/fingerprinted due to the warrant which he probably did. He probably never had the arrest record seal I never had a warrant for my arrest issued, the charges were filed in Justice Court in a small town. I highly doubt the FAA is going to check every justice court record in America. Again no arrest and no conviction or action. When it is expunged if your lawyer does it right then it does not show up for anyone. He has had people pass FBI background checks. Thing is being in the HIMS program is a giant scarlet letter for a lot of people. You have a special issuance medical and a lot of bigger airlines won't even touch people with an SI due to substance abuse. I have heard this straight out of HR peoples mouths. Also the things they make you do are ridiculous. I have spoken to the ALPA HIMS person anonymously and he straight up told me if you don't find your own version of god you won't make it through the program and no one will sponsor you and if you have no sponsor you do not get a medical. So basically you have to blow smoke up peoples butts for however long you are in the program because you don't share their beliefs(he told me it is 3-5 years).Again I know I made a mistake, had too much to drink for my friends going away party and I should have just called an uber. I now always use uber and never drive if I even have 1 or 2 drinks. I never drink more than 2 beers on an overnight and it is pretty much the same at home and I don't even drink more than 2 or 3 nights a week. I just want to get through this and move on with my life. They even told me you have to see a therapist in the program, I do not need therapy I am not depressed and I don't have a substance abuse problem. I would have to act like something was wrong for me so they had something to fix just to get my medical back. no thank you

 

[mtuomi]

Wrong. The justice court will report it to feds, monthly. It's not the feds who ask, it's the courts who tell. And nothing can be expunged at a federal level.

 

[Kritchlow]

And nothing can be expunged at a federal level.

Not true

The National vehicle records check I may agree. But the FBI CHRC is a different story, although that's not necessarily where they'll find a dui.

 

[AggieMike88]

If he had a warrant for his arrest then that has a lot more chance of showing up, especially if he ended up getting arrested/fingerprinted due to the warrant which he probably did. He probably never had the arrest record seal I never had a warrant for my arrest issued, the charges were filed in Justice Court in a small town. I highly doubt the FAA is going to check every justice court record in America. Again no arrest and no conviction or action. When it is expunged if your lawyer does it right then it does not show up for anyone. He has had people pass FBI background checks. Thing is being in the HIMS program is a giant scarlet letter for a lot of people. You have a special issuance medical and a lot of bigger airlines won't even touch people with an SI due to substance abuse. I have heard this straight out of HR peoples mouths. Also the things they make you do are ridiculous. I have spoken to the ALPA HIMS person anonymously and he straight up told me if you don't find your own version of god you won't make it through the program and no one will sponsor you and if you have no sponsor you do not get a medical. So basically you have to blow smoke up peoples butts for however long you are in the program because you don't share their beliefs(he told me it is 3-5 years).Again I know I made a mistake, had too much to drink for my friends going away party and I should have just called an uber. I now always use uber and never drive if I even have 1 or 2 drinks. I never drink more than 2 beers on an overnight and it is pretty much the same at home and I don't even drink more than 2 or 3 nights a week. I just want to get through this and move on with my life. They even told me you have to see a therapist in the program, I do not need therapy I am not depressed and I don't have a substance abuse problem. I would have to act like something was wrong for me so they had something to fix just to get my medical back. no thank you

[Insert Dr. B's patented sigh of exasperation.]

First, they are called paragraphs... learn to use them to avoid walls of text.

Second, you don't listen well do you? The HIMS rep gave you the correct info for you to keep both your medical and your career. Then the rest of that wall of text is a good example of at least one of the Five Hazardous Attitudes of Aviation that every airman learns early on and CPL's, CFI's, and ATP's are held to a higher standard on. http://www.avhf.com/html/Evaluation/HazardAttitude/Hazard_Attitude_Intro.htm

Are we communicating with a real adult here who wants to salvage his career? Or a 4 year old who throws a tantrum when he doesn't get his way and doesn't like the correct answer when it is provided to him? I am beginning to think the latter.

This is once again displayed in your response to the requirement to "see a therapist in the progrm". Your unwillingness to understand and preference to be a four year old throwing a tantrum made you miss the point of this requirement.

You are not seeing a therapist for being depressed, you are required to see a HIMS trained and certified psychologist to be evaluated about if you do or do not have issues regarding substance abuse. If what you claim is true that you don't have a problem, you want need this doctor's evaluation to prove your case to the FAA.

But nooooooo, you just want to rage in your cage like a ****ed off chimpanzee because you see that your bananas and females are going to be taken away forever.

Oh, and raging at us beause you don't want to work the system to save yourself is gonna be like a one year old who just wants to sit in his dirty diaper. Yes, it's warm, and it's yours.... but to us it stinks and we would rather avoid you.

Within the first 4 posts you were told what the path to success was. So either shut up, sack up, and call Dr. Bruce Chien, or shut up, leave, and get ready for your aviation career to come to an end.


PS. Leave that 4 year old at home when you talk to Dr. Chien. Otherwise you will shut yourself out and not have access to one of the few AME's who can and is willing to help you.