Just to note, designees are not employees so you dont get "hired." While at one time certain FSDOs tended to manage their designees as secret squirrel clubs that all shifted to a national application system because of this abuse. There are several guidance references out there on how the process works and how to apply for those interested. Regardless, even if you pass the application process and enter the "designee pool" it still requires a managing FSDO to request the need for a specific designee. And from what I've seen in recent times, its the lack of FSDO personnel to manage the additional designees that is the main reason for a lack of designees in certain areas.
DPE rates
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Minneapolis area: $750 for IFR checkride in 2024. $125 per hour if there is follow up.
And as others have mentioned, there is the paperwork. My examiner mentioned they spend 2x flight time for paperwork.
Examiner also mentioned that the FAA controls the number of examiners by region.
And as others have mentioned, there is the paperwork. My examiner mentioned they spend 2x flight time for paperwork.
Examiner also mentioned that the FAA controls the number of examiners by region.
JOhnH
Touchdown! Greaser!
You are right. It was just a lot easier to type "hired" than what you typed. Sometimes my laziness gets me in trouble.
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
How much contact did he have with them prior to putting in his apps?
ateamer
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They’re not PIC. The applicant is PIC, and the DPE is allowed as a passenger under 61.47(c).
Doc Holliday
En-Route
Right now the FAA has about 935 DPE’s.
Of that, 75% of test are administered by 350 of these, and 50% of those are done by 200 DPE’s.
So 37% of the DPE’s administer 3/4 of all checks.
Way too many DPE’s on the roster doing bare minimum to hold the authorization.
FAA Civil Airman Statistics for 2023
Of that, 75% of test are administered by 350 of these, and 50% of those are done by 200 DPE’s.
So 37% of the DPE’s administer 3/4 of all checks.
Way too many DPE’s on the roster doing bare minimum to hold the authorization.
FAA Civil Airman Statistics for 2023
Rgbeard
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Here in Arizona, my CPL was $1,500 and CFI was $2,000.
The problem of living where flight training is popular.
The problem of living where flight training is popular.
I was just about to say this. Every DPE has an FAA managing specialist who oversees their examining activity. There's a limited span of control, so a relatively inactive DPE is taking up a slot an active DPE could have filled.
Regarding comments about DPE selection being a good ole boy network, selection is now down at a national level and based on local capacity and need. Having a buddy at the FAA doesn't mean much anymore.
Edit: clarification- eligibility is done at the national level, the eligible list is sent to the selecting office. So there's still local decision making, but the initial vetting takes place nationally. All applicants apply through the Designee Management System (DMS).
Regarding high costs of practical tests, as other have mentioned, DPEs are generally well accomplished pilots, whose professional services demand a premium. $150-200 per hour of time for an independent contractor is not outrageous. Further, the recent hiring boom and uptick in pilot starts really stretched DPEs thin. I think we'll see rates stabilize, or even drop a bit and demand decreases. More importantly though, we'll see wait times for DPEs decrease to reasonable levels.
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Rene
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Not to split hairs . . . but since an applicant cannot carry a passenger, and 61.47(c) says that the DPE is the representative of the Administrator and not PiC unless the DPE and applicant (or other PiC) made a prior arrangement for the DPE to act as PiC for part of the flight . . . isn't the DPE a third sort of being . . . neither PiC nor passenger? (Holy Ghost of the Administrator?)
EDIT: Oops . . . I initially called the "Administrator" the "Director". Well, I'm in serious do-do now!
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Doc Holliday
En-Route
What “director” are you speaking about?
Rene
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Oops! I feel silly. Not the "Director", the "Administrator". (The allmighty "Administrator" of the FAA as referenced in the FARs.) I'll go back and fix my post then take my seat in the corner. No soup for me (and it was lohikeitto).
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Clip4
Touchdown! Greaser!
I don’t know a single DPE over the decades that voluntarily gave up the authorization. Some were canned by the FAA and some quit due to medical issues. The change allowing DPE’s to use basic medical will reduce the latter.
Price fixing is common between DPEs under the same FSDO.
hindsight2020
Final Approach
Well that's good to hear. I'll start researching how to apply and report back.
What is the most common background they look for these spots? Former FAA ASIs, specific part ____ background, or is it luck of the draw? I've been underwhelmed with collegiate 141 salaries, plus the geographic inflexibility to these campuses doesn't appeal to our post mil chapter. Single pilot contract work + DPE is a lot more regionally available across in contrast, gives us more choices depending on where we decide to park it for retirement.
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
Last I checked, there was a certain amount of instructional time necessary toward the certificates/ratings you want to examine. I’m not sure if/how mil training translates.
Gilbert Buettner
Cleared for Takeoff
I was told you need 300 hours of dual instruction logged in the previous 12 months. (This came from my boss, who did not meet that requirement and wanted to become a DPE.)
RussR
Final Approach
It's not like DPE eligibility requirements are a secret. FAA Form 8710-10, the DPE application form, lists all the time and experience and rating requirements for each type of examiner.
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hindsight2020
Final Approach
*quietly clicks back to KA/PC12 PIC jerbs tab on chrome*
Is this a cry to more overfund the already overpaid FAA?
Doc Holliday
En-Route
No, it points out that there are too many people holding a DPE that aren’t using it as intended.
If everyone who is designated actually performed certifications you wouldn’t see the shortages and the rates being charged.
Low activity DPE’s need to be removed and replaced with those willing to perform the service.
RussR
Final Approach
I'm not sure about this statement in regards to the "original intent" of the DPE program. I was always under the impression (right or wrong, and I have no source for this) that the intent of the DPE program was for examiners to actually be senior, experienced, and still active pilots for whom being a DPE was going to be a secondary job. Not the full-time DPEs that we see a lot of now. Of course, the intent was also for the DPEs to pick up extra workload that the FSDOs themselves couldn't handle. Some here will remember a time when ALL checkrides were performed by the FAA. In that case there would have been no need for full-time DPEs. My CFI checkride was done by the FAA, which I think was the last rating to be turned over to DPEs.
Doc Holliday
En-Route
You are correct, but the system is full of people that have the designation but only want to do the bare minimum to hold it. I personally know one right now in a busy area who turns down request, not because he is busy, he just doesn't want to do it. But he won't give up the designation (says it's "his").
The days of ASI's performing certification are over, thanks mostly to John Duncan.
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
That’s gone back and forth a little bit, too…when I did my initial CFI in 1988, it was only FAA inspectors doing those, but since there wasn’t an inspector in the east coast region that was qualified, mine was done by a DPE.
In the early 90s, you’d contact the FSDO when you were ready for a CFI initial ride, and they’d either do it themselves or assign it to one of a handful of DPEs. Eventually it all went to DPEs.
Why?
Just make more
As a end user of government, that would be better from a supply and demand standpoint
Doc Holliday
En-Route
Oversight. Right now the FAA is understaffed on Ops ASI's and lacks the resources.
DPE's have the expectation to meet demand for certification. Unfortunately over half designated don't want to fill that obligation, so it would make more sense to allow those who would to have the slots and get rid of the non producers.
How much work does it really take on the part of the FAA?
Or rather how much work SHOULD it take?
I’d imagine lots of this could be automated where the GS only need be concerned with ones that a computer flagged or address complaints on a DPE.
They should have plenty of time as I can’t even get a ASI on the phone to answer a basic question anymore
FAA has been well overdue for a deep deep audit, plenty of dead weight to be cut
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My instrument ride was $500 in 202...1 I think. I'm hearing $800 now. @NealRomeoGolf what's the the going rate for multi rides?
Doc Holliday
En-Route
You clearly don't understand what's involved. I suggest you do some research on the subject, it's all in the public domain.
You complain "They should have plenty of time as I can’t even get a ASI on the phone to answer a basic question anymore". So why do you think this is so? Could it be understaffing? Could it be the Ops ASI has about 200 job functions he's responsible for?
The average Ops ASI has responsibility for 135 certificates, which includes manuals, revisions, training, MEL approval, WebOps and surveillance that goes into SAS. Then there is 141 oversight, Part 133, Part 137, Accident Duty, Pilot Deviations, Desk Duty, on demand work, Part 91 LOA's, etc, etc. He also has DPE oversight included in that mix. I could rattle off several more job functions, but I think you get my point.
The "dead weight" in the FAA is not the GA Ops ASI's as there are way too few of them.
I know many were “working” from home up until recently
Any job one could make a huge list of tasks that make it seem insane any one person could complete, even a McDonald’s worker.
I think if they were able to work from home for as long as they got away with that, must not be that much work.
I have also seen a dramatic decrease in the work they are willing to do over the years, yet their funding goes up and up, go try to get one to do a CFI initial ride, or as I said even return a voicemail
I also don’t think they actually do much oversight, in my 135 days our guy was a occasional email, god forbid we wanted to change anything paperwork wise it took eons to get that guy to do anything.
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Doc Holliday
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True. But the work load remained the same.
How long does it take to review a GOM revision? Initial submission? Issue an OpSpec? Approve a MEL? Issue an LOA? Investigate an accident? Work a PD? Go observe a check airman? Do a DPE observation? Conduct a line check? Observe a class room? Approve a training program? Do a day of desk duty? Perform a proving run?
Since you clearly don't have any answers, how can you blandly make the assumption these Ops ASI's are not doing their job?
So let me ask you, how much time, start to finish, does it take to get a DPE from applicant to qualified? Then tell us what's required after he's qualified?
Again, you don't have a clue as to what they actually do.
Really? I've seen a dramatic increase on what the average GA Ops ASI has to do, all while staffing has decreased.
Were you a 119 official?
I hear that same tired line from all government workers and many underperformers, “you don’t understand and unless you do my job you cant saw how long it takes to screw in a light bulb”
How long does it take?
Too long
Of course more money is the answer right? I’d wager we could double the budget and it wouldn’t move the needle, what that place needs, other than a major fresh sweep in managers and workers, is accountability and standards, don’t meet standards and there’s the unemployment line.
The fact that adding a already in common use training provider can’t be don’t ether 100% online, or in 1 or 2 emails is laughable
I can’t think of any private company that would have allowed work from home while the customers experience spiraled down like it did with the FAA
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Rene
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So . . . your CFI reads CCII
. . . I assume that was back when certificates were all on papyrus not plastic.
Doc Holliday
En-Route
You're clueless. Thanks for playing and demonstrating that.
When it comes to the excuses for the failings and lack of service, time it takes to do even the most simple tasks for FAA, I don’t understand and I don’t care to
schmookeeg
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I would argue it was not covid, but 9/11 where the craven FAA decided to stop accepting walk-in services entirely "because security". Watching their petulant response to basic med was also painfully on-brand.
I hope the whole agency gets DOGE'd. It's a pension farm.
Doc Holliday
En-Route
The agency is top heavy in management, and that's where the problems come. There are way too many AW ASI's compared to Ops ASI's, and the Ops ASI's have 5 times the workload of AW/AV.
And I agree, it needs to be looked at and realigned.
NealRomeoGolf
Final Approach
Between $800 and $1100
Rene
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I hadn't yet been born on 09/11/2001, so pretty much the only frame of reference I have of the world before then comes from family. But, five years ago I was in middle school when the school did not reopen after Spring Break. I have seen how the pandemic and its management / mismanagement affected local government, particularly the schools.
This isn't a popular area for people who didn't grow up around here. All over the region, teachers who had enough seniority to retire did. Teachers not from here, who were waiting for a better job elsewhere, left and took one of those newly vacant positions. Nobody in the local government or the school administration was competent to effect the change to distant learning. So, that was farmed out to private firms, and the teaching itself largely farmed out to the state university system.
Meaning administrators - people tied to the area - drew sizable salaries, but had few to no responsibilities. Many teachers retired or resigned, new ones were not hired, and the ratio of admin to worker reached laughable proportions. Not that it mattered, because all of the real work was farmed out for 21-months.
Today, the district manages to spend more per student per year than the cost of tuition with room and board for a resident at the state university. The student to district employee ratio is under 5:1. The student to certified teacher ratio is over 20:1. Many classes are taught by uncertified substitutes. Many students - those who have parents desiring education - continue to use online services instead of going to in-person classes. The result is an incredibly inefficient bureaucrat welfare and babysitting service.
This isn't a popular area for people who didn't grow up around here. All over the region, teachers who had enough seniority to retire did. Teachers not from here, who were waiting for a better job elsewhere, left and took one of those newly vacant positions. Nobody in the local government or the school administration was competent to effect the change to distant learning. So, that was farmed out to private firms, and the teaching itself largely farmed out to the state university system.
Meaning administrators - people tied to the area - drew sizable salaries, but had few to no responsibilities. Many teachers retired or resigned, new ones were not hired, and the ratio of admin to worker reached laughable proportions. Not that it mattered, because all of the real work was farmed out for 21-months.
Today, the district manages to spend more per student per year than the cost of tuition with room and board for a resident at the state university. The student to district employee ratio is under 5:1. The student to certified teacher ratio is over 20:1. Many classes are taught by uncertified substitutes. Many students - those who have parents desiring education - continue to use online services instead of going to in-person classes. The result is an incredibly inefficient bureaucrat welfare and babysitting service.
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Gilbert Buettner
Cleared for Takeoff
Read it again. It says "202...1, I think." Not hard to figure out.