DPE availability in unacceptable

tonycondon said:
i basically refuse to book a checkride more than two weeks out, or else i end up booked a month + out. I keep a list about 2 pages in my pocket notebook of names and phone numbers to fill the schedule from.

The system would run a lot more efficiently if people would show up for checkrides qualified and prepared. in 2023 my disqualification rate is 15%. Sometimes experience requirements aren't met, airplane maintenance isn't current, maintenance records can't be found, airworthiness/registration certificates are wrong or expired, tires have cords showing, etc etc. The 15% doesn't include the problems I catch before the checkride when I have the ability to check XC routes or see a problem on the 8710 etc, but it also doesn't include the tests that have to be discontinued after the oral exam because the airplane fails preflight.

There of course are regular weather postponements and legit reasons for cancellation, can't do anything about that.

In previous years my pass rate has run in the low 70's for all checkrides combined. I do Private Glider through ATP-Multi and all CFI's. This year it's been in the low 60's. The last few months have been closer to 50.

So between weather, disqualifications, and failures, a very large portion of the scheduled checkrides have to be re-scheduled at least one. It is not uncommon at all for an applicant to finish their checkride on the third slot they have scheduled. So the names on that list don't get a slot very quickly.

I'd personally be quite happy if we had a few more DPE's in our area. I'd be even happier if disqualifications were rare and the pass rate was in the 80-90% range.
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My CFI scheduled my instrument checkride with a local DPE. About 2 weeks before the date, I called the DPE and explained there was no way I'd pass either the oral or flight, altho I got over 90 on the written. Neither the DPE nor I were happy with the CFI but the DPE appreciated my courtesy and honesty. One of these days, Tony, I'll contact you to get scheduled, but candidly, not anytime soon. The way things are going, probably 2025!
 
I had to travel about an hour in the plane to take 2 checkrides this year.
 
murphey said:
My CFI scheduled my instrument checkride with a local DPE. About 2 weeks before the date, I called the DPE and explained there was no way I'd pass either the oral or flight, altho I got over 90 on the written. Neither the DPE nor I were happy with the CFI but the DPE appreciated my courtesy and honesty. One of these days, Tony, I'll contact you to get scheduled, but candidly, not anytime soon. The way things are going, probably 2025!
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I would MUCH rather have someone cancel a couple days ahead of time than take a test knowing they'll probably fail. I can fill in a slot or enjoy a day of glider or balloon flying instead and they and I both don't have to deal with a failure...win win
 
tonycondon said:
I think my low to mid 70's of 2019-2022 was about in line. Here's some data...


I've heard anecdotes from many DPE's nationwide that the lower pass rate I'm seeing this year is not an anomaly.
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Any thoughts on why?

I’ve always heard that younger students tend to finish sooner than older students. And I’m seeing a lot of young students and young CFIs (of course at my age everyone looks young). Are more students simply doing “good enough” to schedule a checkride and not spending enough time really getting that knowledge to sink in?

There’s also the problem of DPE availability. The idea of training so that you peak at your checkride works best when you know when your ride will be. If you’re having to look 2-3 months out with no way to put a date on the calendar, and then get a cold call about a checkride opening in 12 hours, it’s pretty hard to be at your best.
 
Matthew said:
Any thoughts on why?
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This is pure speculation (and hence in the best POA tradition), but....

Looking at that graph I notice that the pass rate for CFIs went up steeply in the recent past. Do we now have a higher percentage of CFIs who, perhaps, aren't up to par and maybe shouldn't have passed? If that's the case, it might be reasonable to expect poorer training of private pilot candidates. The downturn on PP pass rate would lag behind the passing of poorer CFIs.

Another consideration - I went through multiple CFIs en route to my Sport Pilot certificate and my Private Pilot certificate. As soon as my CFI had enough hours, he'd hop to an airline and I'd have to start with a new CFI. After a few flights, he'd make the hop, and so on and so on....

The rush for CFIs to build hours and flee to the airlines has two notable consequences: one, many CFIs aren't really interested in teaching and aren't very good at it, and two, students cycling through multiple CFIs (as I did) results in poorer quality instruction.
 
Half Fast said:
This is pure speculation (and hence in the best POA tradition), but....

Looking at that graph I notice that the pass rate for CFIs went up steeply in the recent past. Do we now have a higher percentage of CFIs who, perhaps, aren't up to par and maybe shouldn't have passed? If that's the case, it might be reasonable to expect poorer training of private pilot candidates. The downturn on PP pass rate would lag behind the passing of poorer CFIs.

Another consideration - I went through multiple CFIs en route to my Sport Pilot certificate and my Private Pilot certificate. As soon as my CFI had enough hours, he'd hop to an airline and I'd have to start with a new CFI. After a few flights, he'd make the hop, and so on and so on....

The rush for CFIs to build hours and flee to the airlines has two notable consequences: one, many CFIs aren't really interested in teaching and aren't very good at it, and two, students cycling through multiple CFIs (as I did) results in poorer quality instruction.
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It took 3 CFIIs for me.
 
Half Fast said:
The rush for CFIs to build hours and flee to the airlines has two notable consequences: one, many CFIs aren't really interested in teaching and aren't very good at it, and two, students cycling through multiple CFIs (as I did) results in poorer quality instruction.
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I believe there is a third consequence as well. In order to apply to be a DPE, you have to be an experienced CFI. Since most CFIs are only doing it as a stepping stone and not as a long term career decision, there are fewer CFIs qualified to apply to be a DPE.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Every type rating I have was issued by check airmen employed by the company I worked for at the time. I’m not saying that abuse of the system doesn’t happen, but I have more faith in the integrity of the system than you apparently do.
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A BIG difference between a checkpilot for an airline you work for versus a employee examiner at a puppy mill that doesn't have the issue of the pilot working for them for 30 years.
 
Pinecone said:
A BIG difference between a checkpilot for an airline you work for versus a employee examiner at a puppy mill that doesn't have the issue of the pilot working for them for 30 years.
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There's actually more to it than that.
 
Half Fast said:
This is pure speculation (and hence in the best POA tradition), but....

Looking at that graph I notice that the pass rate for CFIs went up steeply in the recent past. Do we now have a higher percentage of CFIs who, perhaps, aren't up to par and maybe shouldn't have passed? If that's the case, it might be reasonable to expect poorer training of private pilot candidates. The downturn on PP pass rate would lag behind the passing of poorer CFIs.

Another consideration - I went through multiple CFIs en route to my Sport Pilot certificate and my Private Pilot certificate. As soon as my CFI had enough hours, he'd hop to an airline and I'd have to start with a new CFI. After a few flights, he'd make the hop, and so on and so on....

The rush for CFIs to build hours and flee to the airlines has two notable consequences: one, many CFIs aren't really interested in teaching and aren't very good at it, and two, students cycling through multiple CFIs (as I did) results in poorer quality instruction.
Click to expand...
I’m seeing a change in attitude about unsat checkrides, too. Flying a whole checkride to standard is an unreasonable expectation…they can get most of it done, and then only focus on a smaller portion for the recheck.

I’ve had more than one applicant say something to the effect of “I thought I’d get further before I failed.”
 
MauleSkinner said:
I’m seeing a change in attitude about unsat checkrides, too. Flying a whole checkride to standard is an unreasonable expectation…they can get most of it done, and then only focus on a smaller portion for the recheck.

I’ve had more than one applicant say something to the effect of “I thought I’d get further before I failed.”
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That's kind of frightening.

"Well, if I can't fly you all the way to your destination without crashing today, we'll get the rest of the way tomorrow. Assuming we survive."
 
MauleSkinner said:
I’m seeing a change in attitude about unsat checkrides, too. Flying a whole checkride to standard is an unreasonable expectation…they can get most of it done, and then only focus on a smaller portion for the recheck.

I’ve had more than one applicant say something to the effect of “I thought I’d get further before I failed.”
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That's hideous. How did any of us get through the entire 1.4 hobbs without failing a checkride standard? it's not like they've changed appreciably from PTS to ACS. Same basic junk.

Sounds like lazy CFIs or schools cramming the people through. I hope it's not because they made the DPE appointment and are trying to keep it with a half-baked applicant. That makes @DesertNomad 's assertion doubly strong. This will cause safety of training issues, or onward safety of flight issues if that's how people are working around DPE scarcity.
 
tonycondon said:
i basically refuse to book a checkride more than two weeks out, or else i end up booked a month + out. I keep a list about 2 pages in my pocket notebook of names and phone numbers to fill the schedule from.

The system would run a lot more efficiently if people would show up for checkrides qualified and prepared. in 2023 my disqualification rate is 15%. Sometimes experience requirements aren't met, airplane maintenance isn't current, maintenance records can't be found, airworthiness/registration certificates are wrong or expired, tires have cords showing, etc etc. The 15% doesn't include the problems I catch before the checkride when I have the ability to check XC routes or see a problem on the 8710 etc, but it also doesn't include the tests that have to be discontinued after the oral exam because the airplane fails preflight.

There of course are regular weather postponements and legit reasons for cancellation, can't do anything about that.

In previous years my pass rate has run in the low 70's for all checkrides combined. I do Private Glider through ATP-Multi and all CFI's. This year it's been in the low 60's. The last few months have been closer to 50.

So between weather, disqualifications, and failures, a very large portion of the scheduled checkrides have to be re-scheduled at least one. It is not uncommon at all for an applicant to finish their checkride on the third slot they have scheduled. So the names on that list don't get a slot very quickly.

I'd personally be quite happy if we had a few more DPE's in our area. I'd be even happier if disqualifications were rare and the pass rate was in the 80-90% range.
Click to expand...

This could have easily been written by the DPE I regularly use. It is almost word for word what he has told me about doing check rides recently.

Brian
CFIIG
 
schmookeeg said:
That's hideous. How did any of us get through the entire 1.4 hobbs without failing a checkride standard? it's not like they've changed appreciably from PTS to ACS. Same basic junk.

Sounds like lazy CFIs or schools cramming the people through. I hope it's not because they made the DPE appointment and are trying to keep it with a half-baked applicant. That makes @DesertNomad 's assertion doubly strong. This will cause safety of training issues, or onward safety of flight issues if that's how people are working around DPE scarcity.
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It’s not about the DPE schedule, but is very directly related to trying to time the peak for the checkride instead of developing true proficiency.
 
MauleSkinner said:
It’s not about the DPE schedule, but is very directly related to trying to time the peak for the checkride instead of developing true proficiency.
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We've had puppy mills for as long as I've been flying though -- what changed recently? :confused:
 
I have wanted to be a DPE for a long time, but maybe the cons outweigh the pros nowadays...
 
Gary Ward said:
My buddy just got his seaplane endorsement last week in Fla. He didn't have to wait at all. 2 days of landing and the 3rd day check ride. He did 65 landings the first day and 58 the second day in a cub on floats. He said it was a lot of work. He went there very prepared. He has a lot of experience as captain for major airline.
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He did 123 landings? Wow. I did my seaplane checkride in 1998 with 2.5 hours of training and 13 water landings.
 
Gilbert Buettner said:
He did 123 landings? Wow. I did my seaplane checkride in 1998 with 2.5 hours of training and 13 water landings.
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He said he did a landing about every 30 seconds. He said it is all about handling in the water? He said 30' above the water it was like flying any other slow airplane. 6 hours of flying he said. He and his CFII are SouthWest check airmen during their day jobs.
He is going to instruct seaplane around here after he get's some more hours. If he ever get's time away from work, he spends weeks at time at Love field working on a new training program for SW and giving 3-5 day check rides. He flys for them also.
 
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A seaplane rating shouldn't take a competent pilot more than an afternoon. Maybe longer for a big iron pilot who's stick and rudder skills have atrophied. Places like Jack's in Florida make it a day and a half because they want to make money and customers don't complain because it's a heck of a lot of fun and even at a day and a half it's still about the cheapest rating you can get.
 
Punkinhead said:
Places like Jack's in Florida make it a day and a half because they want to make money and customers don't complain because it's a heck of a lot of fun.
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Except when they’re flying across the KGIF pattern and running into a Polk State Piper .....
 
Punkinhead said:
A seaplane rating shouldn't take a competent pilot more than an afternoon. Maybe longer for a big iron pilot who's stick and rudder skills have atrophied. Places like Jack's in Florida make it a day and a half because they want to make money and customers don't complain because it's a heck of a lot of fun and even at a day and a half it's still about the cheapest rating you can get.
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Tell that to my buddy who is the most experienced pilot I know and at our airport. 21 year Captain with 26000 hrs. Been flying for 41 years and fly's his own cherokee and arrow. And he even fly's my lowly 172. He loves to fly and don't care what it is.
He didn't fly at Jacks.
He flew both of these planes during the first 2 days.
OMQZ9362.JPG

It is all stick and seat of the pants flying he tells me.
GTLR4300.JPG

SVYI6190.JPG
 
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francisco collazos said:
I heard they are charging $1500 for ppl checkrides
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I’ve been told it’s even higher in some parts of the country. In these parts it’s roughly half that.

Checkride costs that high can be soul crushing to a PP student that either didn’t pay attention early when told or wasn’t told what to expect. Surprise!
 
Matthew said:
I’ve been told it’s even higher in some parts of the country. In these parts it’s roughly half that.

Checkride costs that high can be soul crushing to a PP student that either didn’t pay attention early when told or wasn’t told what to expect. Surprise!
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No one should complain about the cost. People wanted DPE's over FAA Inspectors doing check rides, and they got it.
 
Cost usually tracks with the local contract pilot day rate. Since that's what most of the DPE's could otherwise be doing, with a lot fewer headaches frankly.
 
The cost is steep, but around here the beef is more with availability. There are just too few.
 
francisco collazos said:
I heard they are charging $1500 for ppl checkrides
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Yeah, I've heard of ATP rides costing $1500 and PP rides at or near $1,000. Having paid about one tenth of that for all my checkrides, I would just personally feel terrible charging that much. Yeah, sure I'm worth it (sic), but I would not be doing the job to make huge amounts of money...

On the other hand, charging what seems like a more fair price would be undercutting all the competition and that could put me in a bad situation with regard to reputation and some late night visits by gentlemen with baseball bats. :eek2:
 
Try your neighboring FSDOs. Sometimes designee rosters are overloaded in one region, while next door you might find availability.

I empathize with everyone here regarding the availability issue. It is a tough problem. Every pilot examiner I know is committed to helping as much as they possibly can, but most of us are full-time aviation professionals; we only have so much time to dedicate to providing practical tests.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Any idea what pass rates are nationwide?
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Jason Blair is a DPE that does a lot of analysis on checkrides and pass rates.
The last statistics he published were from 2022.
Here is the link. https://jasonblair.net/?p=3579
You can look at his website at jasonblair.net. He also does a lot of on-line webinars for the Wings program. He is very generous with his time.
 
Ryan F. said:
Try your neighboring FSDOs. Sometimes designee rosters are overloaded in one region, while next door you might find availability.

I empathize with everyone here regarding the availability issue. It is a tough problem. Every pilot examiner I know is committed to helping as much as they possibly can, but most of us are full-time aviation professionals; we only have so much time to dedicate to providing practical tests.
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By the way - I caught your webinar on checkride issues Friday evening - it was very good. Thank you.
 
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