DPE availability in unacceptable

[DesertNomad]

I am located in Nevada and every DPE seems to be booked into 2024. I have a student who was working on his IR, then sold his airplane and paused for a while. Now he has resumed but some DPEs are saying no checkrides are available until May 2024. That's crazy. It looks like February is the soonest local availability.

Does anyone know of any DPEs who can do a checkride in October or November in a state that borders Nevada?

 

[Lindberg]

That's absurd. Unless they're working for a school that's bought out all their time, no one's scheduling check rides that far out. Are you sure you haven't been blackballed?

 

[flyingron]

Nope, it's far too common in many areas of the country. The entire DPE system is corrupt and broken.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

I fly with one, and his dance card is over-filled.
Texas, but all these schools in Ca & Az are sending students to him.
He told me once, how there are 2 dpe’s within 500mi of him… all booked solid.

 

[TCABM]

Our local DPEs are still working on rides scheduled as far back as June. One FBO is looking at importing a DPE from the PacNW to exclusively work with their student load. Apparently they have a month’s worth of 2x checkrides/day ready to go. That DPE’s schedule at home is full for at least another 30-45 days.

 

[RussR]

That's absurd. Unless they're working for a school that's bought out all their time, no one's scheduling check rides that far out. Are you sure you haven't been blackballed?

It absolutely is common in many parts of the country. Many students (of any rating) are looking to nearby states for availability.

 

[TCABM]

It absolutely is common in many parts of the country. Many students (of any rating) are looking to nearby states for availability.

I’d like to see more 141 operations with Examining Authority. The SAT area national pilot mill doesn’t even have Examining Authority and they and other 141 schools in the area eat up DPE slots by dozen.

 

[Lindberg]

It absolutely is common in many parts of the country. Many students (of any rating) are looking to nearby states for availability.

How can a CFI approve a student for a checkride 8 months from now?

 

[TCABM]

How can a CFI approve a student for a checkride 8 months from now?

DPEs run a waiting list. The demand is such that CFIs are putting names on multiple waiting lists at the first solo or earlier, knowing DPEs have a four month backlog.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

How can a CFI approve a student for a checkride 8 months from now?

He can’t. The endorsement would have to be made within a certain timeframe of the scheduled checkride.

I’m sure this didn’t happen overnight, but why is there such a shortage of DPEs?

 

[DesertNomad]

How can a CFI approve a student for a checkride 8 months from now?

I expect to start a new instrument student in October and we can be finished by the end of the year, but will have to book a February checkride it seems.

 

[Clip4]

I’d like to see more 141 operations with Examining Authority. The SAT area national pilot mill doesn’t even have Examining Authority and they and other 141 schools in the area eat up DPE slots by dozen.

When you have flown with pilots possessing a commercial instrument SEL/MEL who can’t land a 172 or a Commercial instrument MEL/SEL CFI who can’t demonstrate stalls to the private pilot standard you might change your opinion about 141 schools and self examining authority.

 

[TCABM]

When you have flown with pilots possessing a commercial instrument SEL/MEL who can’t land a 172 or a Commercial instrument MEL/SEL CFI who can’t demonstrate stalls to the private pilot standard you might change your opinion about 141 schools and self examining authority.

You get the same results with run of the mill DPEs, too.

As I mentioned, our local chapter of a national 141 program uses local and imported DPEs as well as their ‘national network’ for checks.

 

[Htaylor]

I am located in Nevada and every DPE seems to be booked into 2024. I have a student who was working on his IR, then sold his airplane and paused for a while. Now he has resumed but some DPEs are saying no checkrides are available until May 2024. That's crazy. It looks like February is the soonest local availability.

Does anyone know of any DPEs who can do a checkride in October or November in a state that borders Nevada?

The DPE I use is only booked about 2 weeks out. I sent another POAer to him recently. I think he only waited a week or so. PM me for his name and number.

 

[RussR]

How can a CFI approve a student for a checkride 8 months from now?

I haven't sent up any for checkrides during the recent problems (like the last year or so), but before that, I would sometimes book a DPE's schedule with a "pilot to be named later". In most cases, I hadn't even started with the student yet, but if I had more than one, I was betting that one of them would be ready on that date. The DPE didn't mind because he knew if I ended up NOT being able to fill it, somebody else would, easily.

 

[Albany Tom]

My guess, it's not that it's corrupt, is that they're asking the wrong people. If the FAA asks the existing DPE's if there are enough DPEs, what are they going to say? Because a majority of them are going to think "If I say yes, then I get another DPE in my area, so I'm only going to do half as many checkrides. That's no good."

My take would be that until they get to the point where someone doesn't have to schedule out pasts 2 weeks in any given area, they don't have enough DPE's.

I'm just guessing, could be all wrong.

 

[Lindberg]

I haven't sent up any for checkrides during the recent problems (like the last year or so), but before that, I would sometimes book a DPE's schedule with a "pilot to be named later". In most cases, I hadn't even started with the student yet, but if I had more than one, I was betting that one of them would be ready on that date. The DPE didn't mind because he knew if I ended up NOT being able to fill it, somebody else would, easily.

So they're not actually booked, they're just holding places in line basically.

 

[MauleSkinner]

it’s a self-perpetuating problem in part…the FAA looks at the date of the 8710/IACRA application and sees that it was completed less than two weeks before the checkride, so no problem. Even if the checkride was scheduled months in advance.

 

[Dennis K]

How can a CFI approve a student for a checkride 8 months from now?

Last week a CFI scheduled a students check ride for December. The student hasn’t soloed yet or taken the written, didn’t even know about the written exam.

 

[Half Fast]

it’s a self-perpetuating problem in part…the FAA looks at the date of the 8710/IACRA application and sees that it was completed less than two weeks before the checkride, so no problem. Even if the checkride was scheduled months in advance.

That’s it exactly. The FAA’s measuring stick obscures the very problem it should be finding.

 

[Clip4]

You get the same results with run of the mill DPEs, too.

As I mentioned, our local chapter of a national 141 program uses local and imported DPEs as well as their ‘national network’ for checks.

Maybe in your neck of the woods, not in mine.

 

[MauleSkinner]

That’s it exactly. The FAA’s measuring stick obscures the very problem it should be finding.

“If you can’t measure what you value, you value what you can measure.”

 

[tonycondon]

i basically refuse to book a checkride more than two weeks out, or else i end up booked a month + out. I keep a list about 2 pages in my pocket notebook of names and phone numbers to fill the schedule from.

The system would run a lot more efficiently if people would show up for checkrides qualified and prepared. in 2023 my disqualification rate is 15%. Sometimes experience requirements aren't met, airplane maintenance isn't current, maintenance records can't be found, airworthiness/registration certificates are wrong or expired, tires have cords showing, etc etc. The 15% doesn't include the problems I catch before the checkride when I have the ability to check XC routes or see a problem on the 8710 etc, but it also doesn't include the tests that have to be discontinued after the oral exam because the airplane fails preflight.

There of course are regular weather postponements and legit reasons for cancellation, can't do anything about that.

In previous years my pass rate has run in the low 70's for all checkrides combined. I do Private Glider through ATP-Multi and all CFI's. This year it's been in the low 60's. The last few months have been closer to 50.

So between weather, disqualifications, and failures, a very large portion of the scheduled checkrides have to be re-scheduled at least one. It is not uncommon at all for an applicant to finish their checkride on the third slot they have scheduled. So the names on that list don't get a slot very quickly.

I'd personally be quite happy if we had a few more DPE's in our area. I'd be even happier if disqualifications were rare and the pass rate was in the 80-90% range.

 

[Matthew]

Took me nearly 8 weeks to get an instrument ride after I had my IACRA completed. I understand why DPEs won’t schedule a ride unless all the boxes are checked. I had pretty much accepted I’d have to wait at least another month and had scaled back my checkride prep training flights accordingly. Then one night I got a call, “can you do your checkride in the morning?” So, no pressure - I can say no, I’m not mentally ready, and maybe wait 2 more months, or I can say yes and hope for the best. I said yes and managed to work my way through it, but it was tough.

A buddy of mine ended up in the same situation. His ride is tomorrow, and he’s been trying for months, too.


Edit: I know that DPEs don’t want to fail students, and I know that students don’t want to fail. But it was a very tough justification to maintain my training schedule with no end in sight. I didn’t get the chance to get that “one last prep” flight and it showed.

 

[MauleSkinner]

In previous years my pass rate has run in the low 70's for all checkrides combined…. This year it's been in the low 60's. The last few months have been closer to 50.

Any idea what pass rates are nationwide?

 

[Gary Ward]

4 years ago there was 3 month wait for a instrument check ride from both DPE I checked with. Then the weather caused 2 cancellations. I had to wait another 3 weeks get rescheduled. I was endorsed for my checkride in Aug and didn't take the check ride until a week before Xmas. I had to go back and fly with my CFII twice because his endorsement expired before I could get the check ride done.
My buddy just got his seaplane endorsement last week in Fla. He didn't have to wait at all. 2 days of landing and the 3rd day check ride. He did 65 landings the first day and 58 the second day in a cub on floats. He said it was a lot of work. He went there very prepared. He has a lot of experience as captain for major airline.

 

[Bob Noel]

fwiwi - another data point: in 1987 I waited almost two months for the private checkride.

 

[SkyChaser]

For my private ride in 2021, my first scheduled checkride was in January. Snowed out. First available rescheduling was April. Snowed out. Next available checkride date was June 1st. Thankfully, the weather cooperated beautifully and I passed on the first attempt. I guess the 9 hours of checkride prep paid off.

 

[Gary Ward]

In 2015 when I took my PPL checkride I don't remember any delay. 2015 was such a different time than today. I could walk in a rent a plane just about any day with no notice. I could schedule training just about any time I wanted. There was only 3 planes for me to rent then and one was usually available. Now they have at least twice that many and twice as many instructors and renting one is tough because they are so busy.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Took me nearly 8 weeks to get an instrument ride after I had my IACRA completed. I understand why DPEs won’t schedule a ride unless all the boxes are checked. I had pretty much accepted I’d have to wait at least another month and had scaled back my checkride prep training flights accordingly. Then one night I got a call, “can you do your checkride in the morning?” So, no pressure - I can say no, I’m not mentally ready, and maybe wait 2 more months, or I can say yes and hope for the best. I said yes and managed to work my way through it, but it was tough.

A buddy of mine ended up in the same situation. His ride is tomorrow, and he’s been trying for months, too.


Edit: I know that DPEs don’t want to fail students, and I know that students don’t want to fail. But it was a very tough justification to maintain my training schedule with no end in sight. I didn’t get the chance to get that “one last prep” flight and it showed.

4 years ago there was 3 month wait for a instrument check ride from both DPE I checked with. Then the weather caused 2 cancellations. Then I had to wait another 3 weeks get rescheduled. I was endorsed for my checkride in Aug and didn't take the check ride until a week before Xmas. I had to go back and fly with my CFII twice because his endorsement expired before I could get the check ride done.
My buddy just got his seaplane endorsement last week in Fla. He didn't have to wait at all. 2 days of landing and the 3rd day check ride. He did 65 landings the first day and 58 the second day in a cub on floats. He said it was a lot of work. He went there very prepared. He has a lot of experience as captain for major airline.

For my private ride in 2021, my first scheduled checkride was in January. Snowed out. First available rescheduling was April. Snowed out. Next available checkride date was June 1st. Thankfully, the weather cooperated beautifully and I passed on the first attempt. I guess the 9 hours of checkride prep paid off.

so what kind of training regimen do/did you maintain when you’re waiting months for a checkride? Obviously flying with an instructor a couple of times a week is unreasonably expensive. Solo once a week? Get together with other students to review? Just hang out on POA and hope?

 

[Matthew]

so what kind of training regimen do/did you maintain when you’re waiting months for a checkride? Obviously flying with an instructor a couple of times a week is unreasonably expensive. Solo once a week? Get together with other students to review? Just hang out on POA and hope?

When I was ready, got all my endorsements and paperwork done, and my CFII and I started calling, I kept up my normal lesson pace for a little while until we finally started hearing back from DPEs to expect a several month wait. Most times we simply wouldn’t hear anything back. My CFII and I decided that maybe once a week to stay sharp would be good, especially since I needed to take about a 2 week break for family commitments. The plan was to get a checkride on the calendar and then hit it hard right at the end. “Hit it hard” didn’t get a chance. I got a call one night, was told I could get my ride the next morning, and to plan an XC from A to B. My DPE was aware of the way this all was thrown together and was pretty patient with me. I actually did better that I gave myself credit for at the time, but I had that “THIS is why I needed that one last lesson!” feeling the whole ride.

After my flight, about 1.5 hrs, my DPE checked his phone and said, “I got 15 messages during that flight.” That’s how busy some of these DPEs seem to be.

 

[Pinecone]

I’d like to see more 141 operations with Examining Authority. The SAT area national pilot mill doesn’t even have Examining Authority and they and other 141 schools in the area eat up DPE slots by dozen.

To me that is very scary. No conflict of interest there. And seeing and hearing some of those puppy mill students in the air, they are scary enough.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

To me that is very scary. No conflict of interest there. And seeing and hearing some of those puppy mill students in the air, they are scary enough.

Every type rating I have was issued by check airmen employed by the company I worked for at the time. I’m not saying that abuse of the system doesn’t happen, but I have more faith in the integrity of the system than you apparently do.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Every type rating I have was issued by check airmen employed by the company I worked for at the time. I’m not saying that abuse of the system doesn’t happen, but I have more faith in the integrity of the system than you apparently do.

What were the overall pass rates at those companies? If they saw what Tony is seeing—30-50% would fail, and another 15% don’t even qualify to take the ride when they showed up—those companies probably wouldn’t have company check airmen.

 

[SkyChaser]

so what kind of training regimen do/did you maintain when you’re waiting months for a checkride? Obviously flying with an instructor a couple of times a week is unreasonably expensive. Solo once a week? Get together with other students to review? Just hang out on POA and hope?

I know I did a lot of hanging out on POA and hoping, but I had to go back and look in my logbook for everything else. After the first checkride attempt, I took an almost 7 week break from flying (thanks, winter!), got about 3 hours of flying in during the next week, took a three week break again, and then leading up to the second checkride attempt, flew five times in three weeks. When that attempt was cancelled, I took about four weeks off, and then did another five flights in the two weeks leading up the (successful) checkride.

So, in other words, I didn't have a regime. I took time off, sometimes voluntary and most times involuntary as weather was not good, and then just brushed up again. It probably wasn't very efficient, but it seemed to have a good effect on my ability to retain skills over periods of inactivity, which has served me well.

 

[TCABM]

To me that is very scary. No conflict of interest there. And seeing and hearing some of those puppy mill students in the air, they are scary enough.

14 CFR Subpart D covers the school’s qualification requirements, privileges, limitations, and reporting requirements.

Just like DPEs are subject to oversight, the 141 programs with examining authority, too. As is, pilot mills have a conflict of interest in hiring outside DPEs that are goldilocks DPEs so they can progress students and ensure cash flow.

 

[Doc Holliday]

What were the overall pass rates at those companies? If they saw what Tony is seeing—30-50% would fail, and another 15% don’t even qualify to take the ride when they showed up—those companies probably wouldn’t have company check airmen.

A company (135/121) that has a failure rate above 10% for check airmen or APD's needs to be looked at, as this is indicative of a training program deficiency. There are adequate gates built into the program to catch deficiencies before the final checks are administered, which should prevent someone to getting to the checkride endorsement if they are not qualified.

As with anything, there are exceptions. Some people simply don't do well under the pressure of a checkride, a life event has them distracted, illness, etc.

I'll also add that under AQP the final checks are experiencing lower failure rates.

 

[Gary Ward]

I started instrument training in a school plane and I rented when I wanted to just fly. Then I got my own plane finished my instrument training flying my plane. So I was flying a lot in my new to me plane while waiting for the check ride.

 

[MauleSkinner]

A company (135/121) that has a failure rate above 10% for check airmen or APD's needs to be looked at, as this is indicative of a training program deficiency. There are adequate gates built into the program to catch deficiencies before the final checks are administered, which should prevent someone to getting to the checkride endorsement if they are not qualified.

As with anything, there are exceptions. Some people simply don't do well under the pressure of a checkride, a life event has them distracted, illness, etc.

I'll also add that under AQP the final checks are experiencing lower failure rates.

If that level of training program deficiency existed and the company (airline or otherwise) wanted to get their own examining authority, would that happen before they got their training program in order?

 

[Doc Holliday]

If that level of training program deficiency existed and the company (airline or otherwise) wanted to get their own examining authority, would that happen before they got their training program in order?

The submission of the new training manual to include APD authority would put the TM back into initial, which would require surveillance of the program with emphasis on APD functions. After the surveillance by the FAA is completed, any deficiencies would be noted, the company would revise the program to address the deficiencies, then it is rechecked. Once that is done, the POI can move the TM to final.