Don't just take off because u are cleared

Discussion in 'Lessons Learned' started by WannFly, Dec 17, 2017.

  1. WannFly

    WannFly En-Route

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    Not sure where to post hence posting here. Today holding short of 18, told tower I am ready for departure. Didn't look at final, my bad, before calling in. Tower came back with hold short for landing traffic as I looked towards final and saw a dual jet in the air. It was a MD-80 I believe, alleging air. As it flew to touchdown I could actually see the trail of wake , looked pretty cool. Noted the touchdown point and reset my timer to ensure 3 min delay. Winds were rt down the runway at 6 kts. Exactly 20 seconds later tower came back and said cleared for take off, caution wake turbulance.

    I was under the impression that controllers are required to give a 3 min separation. Anyway, I responded with unable, will hold for another 2 mins, then got the take off clearance again after 2:30 seconds.

    May be MD-80 doesn't generate as much wake as a 747, but I just wasn't comfortable taking off right after a dual jet landing and ensuring I take off after it's touchdown point, which was about 4000 ft down the runway.

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  2. Ryanb

    Ryanb Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    I think you’re smart for declining the takeoff clearance. Never accept a clearance that you feel uncomfortable with. Good call.

    One thing that I’ve tried to get into the habit of is audibly calling ‘clear left-clear right’ before crossing any threshold, especially in a high wing.

    Fly safe!
     
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  3. N659HB

    N659HB Pattern Altitude

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    Second that. Good call, indeed.

    BTW @Ryanb, what happened to your avatar? ;)
     
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  4. MtnMarcus

    MtnMarcus Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Similar thing happened to me a few weeks ago except the touchdown point of the jet was only about a thousand feet down. I took the runway and fast taxied about 500 feet and then went full power for t/o. I would have done the same thing as you if the touchdown would have been much longer.
     
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  5. Ryanb

    Ryanb Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    What? You don’t like my upgraded photo? :D;)
     
  6. N659HB

    N659HB Pattern Altitude

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    Thought the fighter pilot helmet and visor was pretty cool. :)

    Sorry I couldn't make it to GMU.

    We now return this thread to its original content...
     
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  7. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Final Approach

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    Nope, no 3 minutes. Tower just needs a clear runway in that case. They can also use anticipated separation for that clear deck.
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2017
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  8. Ryanb

    Ryanb Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    It was! I felt like I should change it to better represent my true self as a lowly piston single pilot. :D

    No worries! We’ll catch ya on the next round!
     
  9. mscard88

    mscard88 Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Why you giving him less shet about not making it than me, who never said he'd attend? o_O
     
  10. Ravioli

    Ravioli En-Route

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    That must be one heck of a long runway if someone is putting down MD-80s 4,000' from the threshold and stopping safely.

    I'm not sure the wake of a landing aircraft is of much consequence to your take off, since the vortexes are going down and you've got no down left on your roll out.

    The general advice of 3 mins for them to blow themselves away is good, but not a controller issue. (as previously mentioned)
     
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  11. Ryanb

    Ryanb Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Cuz 659HB has made it to past get-togethers (The Pig), so we know he’s a devoted POA’er. You on the other hand...:nono: :D
     
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  12. eman1200

    eman1200 Final Approach

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    and cause he knows his geography
     
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  13. Ryanb

    Ryanb Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    ‘zactly! That too.
     
  14. Greg Bockelman

    Greg Bockelman Administrator Management Council Member

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    If he touched down at 4000 feet he was out of the touchdown zone and should have gone around. If he was at the fixed distance marker a safe takeoff could have possibly been made. Had to be there to make a judgement. Never a bad thing to wait.
     
  15. eman1200

    eman1200 Final Approach

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    I wonder if he meant fo hundid feet
     
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  16. mscard88

    mscard88 Ejection Handle Pulled

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    You ****ers! :mad:
     
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  17. Rykymus

    Rykymus Line Up and Wait

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    I was simply taught to take off beyond his touchdown point. Always works for me.
     
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  18. Radar Contact

    Radar Contact Cleared for Takeoff

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    ATC did nothing wrong. No 3 min required or needed. I would have departed. There’s no chance you couldn’t have safely rotated after his touchdown. It takes several thousand feet for an MD80 to touch down and get slow enough to get off the runway.

    At any rate, good call for you. You are the PIC and should never accept a clearance you aren’t comfortable with.
     
  19. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Before take off, towered or not, before I cross the line

    Clear Right, Clear Left, Clear on the box


    And as far as thinking the tower provides "saftey"





    The second you trust someone to look out for your saftey, that's the time you're likley to end up on Katherine's report.
     
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  20. Greg Bockelman

    Greg Bockelman Administrator Management Council Member

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    Possibly, but probably not. That would have been pretty short. And I would have taken off right away if that was the case.
     
  21. jordane93

    jordane93 Final Approach

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    Better safe than sorry.
     
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  22. eman1200

    eman1200 Final Approach

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    so, then safe to assume somewhere between 400 and 4000 feet? is 4000 feet more believable than 400? I dunno.
     
  23. WannFly

    WannFly En-Route

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    I always clear final when crossing threshold, and left and right when on intersecting runways, and I usually look on the final before I call to mitigate just a hold short response. Today I made the ready for departure as I was looking...

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  24. mscard88

    mscard88 Ejection Handle Pulled

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  25. N659HB

    N659HB Pattern Altitude

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    Just remember, it's not jets only that cause wake turbulence. Stand by while I find the link...

     
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  26. WannFly

    WannFly En-Route

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    Roger. 18 here is 10k feet

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  27. Greg Bockelman

    Greg Bockelman Administrator Management Council Member

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    Yeah, 4000 is more believeable. I suspect it was no further than 3000 feet but I wasn't there.
     
  28. WannFly

    WannFly En-Route

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    Nopes, I would have taken off too. This was well past rny 27 crossing, 3000+ for sure. I could have started my rotation after that, but that defeats the purpose of asking for full length (town at the south end)

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  29. SoCal RV Flyer

    SoCal RV Flyer Pattern Altitude

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    Flying out of nontowereds is really good practice for towereds with controllers who are, um, not fully in the moment, or overworked. I always spin a 360 in the runup area to take a real good look around before departing.
     
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  30. champ driver

    champ driver Line Up and Wait

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    It's always a good habit to look first before calling ready for TO.
    I see too many pilots who don't even face traffic on final before calling, and then without looking, they depend on the tower to ensure it's safe to TO.
    There's no point to call if you see someone on short final, the tower will have to call back for you to hold short.

    You're based at FAR aren't you?
    If so then 18-36 is 9001' long.
    It sounds kind of odd that they would touchdown so long on a 9000' runway. I would think that company rules would say that they have to touchdown in the touchdown zone, that's 1000' from the threshold.
    Good call on not taking off if you're not comfortable with the situation.
     
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  31. WannFly

    WannFly En-Route

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    Yup kfar, I was little surprised too to see it land so far, I have mostly seen them land pretty close to the threshhold. But again they are allegient air, so who knows ( no offense to any alliegient air pilots on POA) ... these are the guys who didn't read NOTAM, and then declared emergency just so they could land... a while back

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    Last edited: Dec 17, 2017
  32. luvflyin

    luvflyin En-Route

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    The 3 minute rule is for intersection departures. If your at the end, or an intersection within 700(i think) feet of the end, it doesn't apply.

    EDIT: Disregard. The 3 minute rule is for successive departures. It's 500 feet
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2017
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  33. Greg Bockelman

    Greg Bockelman Administrator Management Council Member

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    But doesn’t that just apply to 2 departing aircraft? I think it is different when one is departing after a landing aircraft.
     
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  34. luvflyin

    luvflyin En-Route

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    Yes. Post Edited. Good catch, my bad
     
  35. Radar Contact

    Radar Contact Cleared for Takeoff

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    Yes sir. As I know you are aware Greg but maybe a refresher to those who aren't, the vortices descend at about 300-500 fpm. In the OP's case let's assume the long landing aircraft crossed the threshold at a super high 250 ft (not probable). In 30-40 seconds they are at the ground. No way the preceding arrival is off the runway with you rolling down it in less time. This is why the rules governing wake for every arrival/departure scenario don't include a departure behind an arrival on the same runway.

    *To each their own and people can exercise whatever caution level they are comfortable with. If you ever fly into a busy airport and you insist on 3 min you may not be departing for a while if aircraft are touching down every 1 1/2-2 mins and hopefully you aren't blocking access to the runway for others.
     
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  36. Ravioli

    Ravioli En-Route

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    @WannFly - I think the controller did you a disservice with the wake turbulence warning behind a landing aircraft when you were departing. What @Radar Contact supports my belief.

    Now then, if you were preparing to depart with a quartering tailwind there could have been more wake to worry about, but that was not in the narrative and not very likely since they would have flipped the field to a quartering headwind which would have only improved the situation.
     
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  37. SkyDog58

    SkyDog58 Final Approach

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    I know that even a Cessna 150 will.
     
  38. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Final Approach

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    @WannFly - I think the controller did you a disservice with the wake turbulence warning behind a landing aircraft when you were departing. What @Radar Contact supports my belief.

    Now then, if you were preparing to depart with a quartering tailwind there could have been more wake to worry about, but that was not in the narrative and not very likely since they would have flipped the field to a quartering headwind which would have only improved the situation.[/QUOTE]

    I would've issued the caution with the initial clearance just to cover my butt. Issuing it 3 minutes later in this case was a waste.
     
  39. Tantalum

    Tantalum Pattern Altitude

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    Good call! My CFI was very firm on reminding me to never accept a clearance I am not comfortable with

    I've never heard of a 3 min separation for departing aircraft (doesn't mean there isn't one, just never had a CFI tell me about it). Last time I was at John Wayne in the Archer we were instructed to line up and wait pretty much right after a SW 737 started down the runway. Not long after his lift off we were cleared for take off. I just used the rules we were taught about the vorticies, and how to plan take off and touchdown

    *Incidentally, I did have tower get all bent out of shape on me once after I asked for 3 minutes in the runup area. We got our clearance on the ramp then as we pulled into the runup tower advised "I have your squawk and release ready, advise when you're done with the runup" - okay, great I thought, this will be quick... but midway through the runup they asked if I was ready and I asked for 3 extra minutes (partly because I wanted to also brief the obstacle departure procedure we were assigned), which got him a little bent out of shape. Mind you, this was not a busy airport, I think they're on the border of actually needing a control tower. w/e
     
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  40. mscard88

    mscard88 Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Controller was out of line. You are the PIC, not the tower controller. If it were blatant I would have called the tower chief and have a discussion. NEVER allow a controller to rush you.
     
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