Don't just take off because u are cleared

Discussion in 'Lessons Learned' started by WannFly, Dec 17, 2017.

  1. Zeldman

    Zeldman Final Approach

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    As a teenager we would park on the road just off the end of the runways at the old John Connally AFB out side of Waco. I don't remember what airline, but nightly we would watch 707s doing touch and goes. I mean the road was just off the end of the runway. If we went through the 4 string barbed wire fence we would be on the warning track.

    Usually about 1.5 to 2 minutes after the plane departed, we would hear a slight whistling noise and the tree tops would just start whipping around. We never felt a bit of air movement right under the path of the jets. I mean seriously whipping around. We always thought it was from the jet engines when applying power for the go part of the T&G.

    Later when I started flight training I realized it was the vortices coming off the wings as the plane flew over.

    Really impressive strength.
     
  2. Tantalum

    Tantalum Pattern Altitude

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    Thanks

    There is one controller at this tower that can be weird sometimes. They've denied our practice approach requests in the past when they've had 3-4 planes in the pattern. Granted, their RNAV approach puts you head on with the typical pattern... but other controllers just amend the MDA to 1K above TPA for us and don't give us any grief

    My CFI has called them in the past to inquire about other issues, but I try to lay low. The flying community is small so I try to not ruffle too many feathers
     
  3. Tantalum

    Tantalum Pattern Altitude

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    Always thought that was awesome

    If anyone has ever golfed at Balboa Park golf course then you can sometimes see (or rather, hear) the same thing as the SAN approach comes right over the course. The occasional 767 and 757 can definitely be heard making a strange wooshing sounds as the air mass comes down through the trees there (can't feel it though). The 757 seems to do it worse than the BA 777
     
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  4. Sac Arrow

    Sac Arrow Touchdown! Greaser!

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    There is a flip side to this argument...
     
  5. mscard88

    mscard88 Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Unfortunately individual controllers have their limits on how much traffic they can handle. There are weak sisters out there. I worked with quite a few in the Air Force. One guy would full stop fighters when he had more than 3-4 in the pattern. So I didn't assign him to local control when he was under my supervision. That's when it's fun and challenging, when you get 8-12 fighters in the pattern!
     
  6. Zeldman

    Zeldman Final Approach

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    :popcorn::popcorn::popcorn:
     
  7. Radar Contact

    Radar Contact Cleared for Takeoff

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    Sounds like you made a good decision. The only 3 min rule (dep/dep same rwy) would be if you departed an intersection more than 500ft down the runway after the 737. That would have been waiver-able but I wouldn't. Same departure point, you just depart and will lift off prior to their rotation point and off-set upwind if needed depending on turn out. All the controller needed was 6000ft and airborne between you and the 737.
     
  8. mscard88

    mscard88 Ejection Handle Pulled

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    You talkin' burgers again?
     
  9. WannFly

    WannFly En-Route

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    Good to know. Didn't think about that

    Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
     
  10. SkyDog58

    SkyDog58 Final Approach

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    Old dog w/o new tricks
    Best to try to avoid the flip side.
     
  11. Paulie

    Paulie Line Up and Wait

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    Had San Juan ATC clear me for takeoff in a c-182 immediately after a 767 landed. I waited 5 minutes. As a aside those big turboprops such as the ATR churn up plenty of air with those big slow turning props, a friend in a Aztec had a funky ride following one out.
     
  12. rtk11

    rtk11 Line Up and Wait

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    At KFUL, there’s a lot of helicopter activity. I was cleared for takeoff after a helicopter touched down, and was advised of wake turbulence. I should have waited, but instead I extended the roll past the helicopter (felt the turbulence) then went full power to take off. Luckily LSAs have good takeoff performance. But in hindsight, I should have declared “unable” as well, and waited 3 minutes.
     
  13. 1RTK1

    1RTK1 Line Up and Wait

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    Whirly birds can raise havoc on planes

     
  14. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

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    He may be referring to wake turbulence upsets.
     
  15. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I was taught to go by where a heavy's nose wheel touches down. I'm not sure whether you meant that or the mains. I assume that the reasoning is that the wing makes much less lift once the angle of attack is reduced, thereby generating much less in the way of wingtip vortices.

    I think I was taught two minutes rather than three, but this was 26 years ago, so I could be misremembering.
     
  16. Timbeck2

    Timbeck2 En-Route

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    3 minutes - the "shun brothers" meaning if you are departing behind a large aircraft and you are at the intersection, there is a 3 minute (waiver-able by you) wake turbulence advisory. OR if you are departing behind a large aircraft of which either one of you are opposite direction, then again expect a three minute (waiver-able by you) wake turbulence advisory. And as someone said above, this is successive departures. This also applies if the large aircraft conducts a low approach.

    2 minutes - If you are departing behind a heavy aircraft from the same departing point, then your wake turbulence is two minutes (not waiver-able) Only time it isn't waiver-able is if the departure was a heavy.

    Large aircraft - any aircraft of more than 12,500 pounds maximum certificated takeoff weight.

    But in the OP's case, there is no mandatory wake turbulence wait if you are departing after a large aircraft has landed; they just need to be off the runway. If you want to wait, fine but hopefully not when others are stacked up behind you.
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2017
  17. Paulie

    Paulie Line Up and Wait

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    757 was not considered a "heavy" when it first started flying. They soon realized that it put out quite a bit of wake turbulence. That's the reason for the heavy designation.
     
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  18. Radar Contact

    Radar Contact Cleared for Takeoff

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    And after further studies they have since changed the rules again. 757's are no longer considered Heavy's or something in-between either. They are wake recat class D. That is the same as 737's, Airbus 318-321's, Gulfstream 5 and 6's, and Embrier 190,195's for comparison. Most everyone get's 2 1/2 miles behind them now except for very small aircraft (i.e. the typical light GA plane would get 4 behind all those listed).
     
  19. Ravioli

    Ravioli En-Route

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    And the people in those whirly birds have guns and badges!

    [I used to be in RIFC, and when I visit family in the area I still use Fun Outside's planes. Both are at General Aviation so real close to them peeps]
     
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  20. Paulie

    Paulie Line Up and Wait

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    Didn't know that, thanks. But like I said big turboprops are surprisingly bumpy to get behind.
     
  21. ARFlyer

    ARFlyer En-Route

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    A320 family puts out some mean a$$ wake. They also love taxiing at grandpa speed but that’s another rant.

    Anytime I see the winds showing 12kts or less , especially if it’s a quartering tailwind, I suspect I’ll be getting some wake. There is times I’ve declined takeoff clearance if I think we’re to close.
     
  22. Radar Contact

    Radar Contact Cleared for Takeoff

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    We do get some complaints behind them. The most complaints we seem to get now is behind 738's and 739's. Especially RJ's behind them.
     
  23. eetrojan

    eetrojan Pattern Altitude

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    I was thinking about this too as I fly out of John Wayne. As you know, there are two runways, 20L and 20R. The left runway is short at about 3,000 feet while the right runway is about 5,700 feet and, thus, is the one used by the Boeing 737s and Airbus A320s.

    If you're departing with a heading of 220 ("Mesa") or 330 ("Orange"), Tower will usually give you 20R so you can turn to heading as soon as you're comfortable, rather than 20L and have you turn across 20R's departure path.

    That often means they're trying to fit you between two airline departures. With a continuous series of airline departures, it's not impossible, but it sure would be difficult to wait for 2-3 minutes if you ever wanted to get out.