Does private pilot exercising as sport pilot need endorsement?

A

asicer

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asicer
Suppose a pilot trains in a DA40FP (fixed pitch prop) and passes the Private Pilot checkride. The very next day, the pilot buys a DA40XL (constant speed prop) and proceeds to log a bazillon flights and a gazillion hours all day and all night everywhere and under every condition a Diamond Star can possibly fly. 1 year and 11 months later her medical expires and on the day of the doctor's appointment, which happens to be October 23 2025, the weather is too nice not to fly so she decides to exercise Sport Pilot privileges.

Is this not allowed due to the lack of a 61.331(b) endorsement for the constant speed prop? She does not have 61.31(e) endorsement because none was ever needed as a private pilot.
 
Constant speed prop, retractable gear and other things will be allowed under MOSAIC.
 
FYI, Basic Med privileges don’t expire until the end of the month of the physical.
 
jcurry said:
Constant speed prop, retractable gear and other things will be allowed under MOSAIC.
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They are allowed for SP with an endorsement; MOSAIC has restrictions.
It is an interesting question because a complex endorsed PP can fly a SP-compliant aircraft using the SP medical rules even if the aircraft has a CS prop. The PP/complex endorsement covers it.
However, a PP is not required to get the endorsement to fly a fixed-gear aircraft with a constant-speed prop. No PP complex endorsement means that he cannot fly the said aircraft under SP unless he gets a CS prop endorsement.
 
JScarry said:
FYI, Basic Med privileges don’t expire until the end of the month of the physical.
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Suppose our 40 year old pilot got a class3/student certificate 1 month before passing the check ride. That would mean that a flight review is not due yet and those gazillion hours behind a constant speed prop were without an instructor aboard.
 
If you have a private with the appropriate category and class, you do not need any of the sport pilot specific endorsements.

MOSAIC 61.316 (2) (ii) "You do not have to hold any of the endorsements required by this subpart, but you must comply with the limitations in § 61.315."
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
If you have a private with the appropriate category and class, you do not need any of the sport pilot specific endorsements.

MOSAIC 61.316 (2) (ii) "You do not have to hold any of the endorsements required by this subpart, but you must comply with the limitations in § 61.315."
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That was simple.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
If you have a private with the appropriate category and class, you do not need any of the sport pilot specific endorsements.

MOSAIC 61.316 (2) (ii) "You do not have to hold any of the endorsements required by this subpart, but you must comply with the limitations in § 61.315."
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Yes, but § 61.315(c)(20)(ii) says you need to satisfy §  61.331(b) to fly an aircraft with a manual controllable pitch prop, and § 61.331(b) says you either need a complex endorsement or a manual controllable pitch prop endorsement. So, I think there is a good argument you need one or the other if your plane has a blue knob/lever and you want to use a driver’s license medical.

I guess there is some inartful drafting here in that it seems to say that you don’t have to comply with any of the subpart J requirements for endorsements, but then it says you do have to comply with a section that requires certain endorsements. Given the “but” and the fact that the endorsements required in § 61.315 are narrower than the “any of the endorsements” referred to in the first part of § 61.303(a)(2)(ii), I think a court would say that the § 61.315 requirement for the endorsement trumps the no-endorsement-required provision of § 61.303. It does seem to go against the spirit of the rest of the rules, which seem to say that if a private pilot is allow to do X, they don’t need the sport-pilot endorsement to do X under a driver’s license medical. It’s a pretty trivial piece of paperwork to comply with. And you surely want at least one lesson with a CFI about manual props before you fly with one. But it could be a little annoying for pilots with plenty of experience with the blue knob/lever but no complex endorsement.
 
What if you have a in flight manually adjustable pitch prop? No blue knob or anything. Not even a manifold pressure gauge.

(Eyes towards the -120 over my shoulder in the avatar.)
 
Tighten the hub bolts to keep the blades in place?


:D
 
midlifeflyer said:
Does this help? It's from the reg.
View attachment 144353
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Well, one of the 61.315 limitations is that an aircraft with a controllable pitch prop is forbidden unless one has met the requirements of 61.331(b).

A computer scientist would need a lawyer to break him out of the infinite loop. :)

EDIT: Since you bring up that chart, let's also go in the opposite direction. Suppose a private pilot has nothing but 172XP time but then decides to operate as a sport pilot in a 182. Is he prevented from doing so by a lack of a 61.31(f) high performance endorsement?
 
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asicer said:
Well, one of the 61.315 limitations is that an aircraft with a controllable pitch prop is forbidden unless one has met the requirements of 61.331(b).

A computer scientist would need a lawyer to break him out of the infinite loop. :)
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I don’t see the problem.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Which limitation in 61.315 is that?
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Effective October 22: § 61.315(c) reads, in relevant part: “(c) You may not act as pilot in command of an aircraft: . . . (20) If the aircraft— . . . (ii) Is an airplane with a manual controllable pitch propeller, unless you have met the requirements of § 61.331(b).“
 
asicer said:
Suppose a pilot trains in a DA40FP (fixed pitch prop) and passes the Private Pilot checkride. The very next day, the pilot buys a DA40XL (constant speed prop) and proceeds to log a bazillon flights and a gazillion hours all day and all night everywhere and under every condition a Diamond Star can possibly fly. 1 year and 11 months later her medical expires and on the day of the doctor's appointment, which happens to be October 23 2025, the weather is too nice not to fly so she decides to exercise Sport Pilot privileges.

Is this not allowed due to the lack of a 61.331(b) endorsement for the constant speed prop? She does not have 61.31(e) endorsement because none was ever needed as a private pilot.
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Are you trialing questions for private pilot practical test?
 
Clip4 said:
Are you trialing questions for private pilot practical test?
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No, but this is a plausible scenario. A variation on that is a private pilot buying a 172 or Grumman Tiger, installing a constant speed prop via STC and then shortly thereafter decides to operate as a sport pilot.
 
asicer said:
No, but this is a plausible scenario. A variation on that is a private pilot buying a 172 or Grumman Tiger, installing a constant speed prop via STC and then shortly thereafter decides to operate as a sport pilot.
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Yea, because putting CS props on engines 180hp or less is so common.
 
Neil Rubin said:
Effective October 22: § 61.315(c) reads, in relevant part: “(c) You may not act as pilot in command of an aircraft: . . . (20) If the aircraft— . . . (ii) Is an airplane with a manual controllable pitch propeller, unless you have met the requirements of § 61.331(b).“
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You are not manually controlling the pitch in a constant speed propellor. You are just telling the prop governor what speed you want.

Would it also apply to a diesel powered plane that has a fadec to do that for you. And has no blue knob.
 
asicer said:
Well, one of the 61.315 limitations is that an aircraft with a controllable pitch prop is forbidden unless one has met the requirements of 61.331(b).

A computer scientist would need a lawyer to break him out of the infinite loop. :)

EDIT: Since you bring up that chart, let's also go in the opposite direction. Suppose a private pilot has nothing but 172XP time but then decides to operate as a sport pilot in a 182. Is he prevented from doing so by a lack of a 61.31(f) high performance endorsement?
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The high-performance, complex, and tailwheel endorsement requirements of § 61.31 apply to sport pilots and to private pilots using a driver’s license medical, exactly the same way as they apply to private pilots with a medical certificate. (They refer to acting as PIC and say nothing about certificate level. They also apply to solo student pilots, in case you decided to do your initial training in a Stearman or something like that.) So, this pilot would need a high-performance endorsement to fly the 182. I think they would also need the sport pilot manual controllable pitch propeller endorsement, unless they had a complex endorsement.
 
Mikey52 said:
You are not manually controlling the pitch in a constant speed propellor. You are just telling the prop governor what speed you want.

Would it also apply to a diesel powered plane that has a fadec to do that for you. And has no blue knob.
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From the discussion in the Federal Register, it seems to me that “manual controllable” is meant to describe a variable pitch propellor that is not “automated,” i.e. one that requires the pilot to use some sort of separate control to manipulate the pitch. I think that automated would include a FADEC system or the mechanical combined throttle/prop control in the Cirrus SR series. Manual would include both systems where the pitch is controlled directly and systems with a prop governor and blue knob/lever. But neither the regulation nor the Federal Register discussion is very clear on what counts as manual controllable.
 
Neil Rubin said:
I think they would also need the sport pilot manual controllable pitch propeller endorsement, unless they had a complex endorsement.
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The manual controllable pitch propeller endorsement is required by “this Subpart”, so would not be required for a recreational or higher certificate holder.

There is no such exclusion for the training that I see, though.
 
What I think some are missing when reading 61.315 is the first 7 words.

(I’d say the section heading, but headings don’t have significance by themselves)
 
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Neil Rubin said:
I think they would also need the sport pilot manual controllable pitch propeller endorsement, unless they had a complex endorsement.
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Would you also say a private pilot would need the Class D, C, and B endorsements? (another endorsement required by 61.315)
 
midlifeflyer said:
Would you also say a private pilot would need the Class D, C, and B endorsements? (another endorsement required by 61.315)
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No. Any endorsements a PP doesn't need when flying with a medical, he doesn't need when flying without. He doesn't need a class D endorsement, for example, because unlike a SP who gets extra training and an endorsement for it, a PP is expected to already know that stuff. But if it's something that a PP needs an endorsement for (e.g. tailwheel), then he needs it when exercising SP privileges, too.
 
Dana said:
No. Any endorsements a PP doesn't need when flying with a medical, he doesn't need when flying without. He doesn't need a class D endorsement, for example, because unlike a SP who gets extra training and an endorsement for it, a PP is expected to already know that stuff. But if it's something that a PP needs an endorsement for (e.g. tailwheel), then he needs it when exercising SP privileges, too.
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Right. I asked the question of those who are claiming otherwise.
 
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Clip4 said:
You are drinking the cool aid. There are a small percentage of pilots who will ever fly a AA5B. Add this STC is very rare. Anyone obtaining a private pilot certificate today will not see probably never see, let alone fly, a Grumman with this or any STC upgrading to a CS prop other than an airshow someplace.
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On the other hand, the 180 HP Diamond DA40 has become a fairly popular trainer, and it has a CS prop standard. So I guess it's not common, but it's really not all that rare.
 
Dana said:
No. Any endorsements a PP doesn't need when flying with a medical, he doesn't need when flying without. He doesn't need a class D endorsement, for example, because unlike a SP who gets extra training and an endorsement for it, a PP is expected to already know that stuff. But if it's something that a PP needs an endorsement for (e.g. tailwheel), then he needs it when exercising SP privileges too.
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How about an older pilot like me that was grandfathered on high performance, complex, and tailwheel? If after retirement and I decided to go the Sport Pilot route, would I need to get them? If so, it seems wrong since I am also a CFI and have given all of those endorsements to other pilots.
 
Plano Pilot said:
How about an older pilot like me that was grandfathered on high performance, complex, and tailwheel? If after retirement and I decided to go the Sport Pilot route, would I need to get them? If so, it seems wrong since I am also a CFI and have given all of those endorsements to other pilots.
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You need to get the new endorsements if the airplane is red. Or...

Dana said:
No. Any endorsements a PP doesn't need when flying with a medical, he doesn't need when flying without.
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midlifeflyer said:
What I think some are missing when reading 61.315 is the first 7 words.

(I’d say the section heading, but headings don’t have significance by themselves)
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I think you are referring to the language “(a) If you hold a sport pilot certificate.” I don’t think that really answers very many questions in the context of the overall amended regulations. First, it doesn’t appear to modify § 61.315(b) or 61.315(c), the latter of which is what is relevant to this discussion. So I think the limitations of § 61.315(c) clearly apply to recreational pilots and above. I can see the argument that § 61.315(a) doesn’t apply to private pilots using their driver’s license, because they typically do not “hold a sport pilot certificate,” but that is very clearly not what the FAA intended here. It would mean that you could fly a nine-seat turbine helicopter with conventional flight controls, for example, with a driver’s license medical, as long as you only had one passenger and followed other limitations. I think the clear intent is that private pilots are subject to all of the limitations of § 61.315—with the possible exception of endorsement requirements—when flying on a driver’s license medical.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Would you also say a private pilot would need the Class D, C, and B endorsements? (another endorsement required by 61.315)
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Okay, you’ve changed my mind. It does seem that the answer should be the same for manually controllable pitch without retractable gear, for retractable gear without controllable pitch (i.e. for non-complex with one but not both of these features), for flying at night, for controlled airspace, and for V_H > 87 kts. For the latter two, which date from the 2004 sport pilot rule, everyone has always assumed no endorsement was required, and it would be positively silly to require a private pilot to get an endorsement to fly aircraft with V_H > 87 kts. For night, the required training for the endorsement exactly replicates the required private pilot training, so again silly to require training and an endorsement that are implied by the fact of the private pilot certificate (outside of the Alaska exception). So, probably safe to assume that § 61.303(a)(2)(ii) means you don’t need an endorsement for the first two either.

Still, it might not be the craziest idea in the world to get the endorsement next time you fly with a CFI, if you are flying an aircraft with one of these features, don’t have a complex endorsement, and don’t have at least BasicMed. Always a chance of getting ramp checked by someone who views the rules a little differently.
 
Neil Rubin said:
Still, it might not be the craziest idea in the world to get the endorsement next time you fly with a CFI, if you are flying an aircraft with one of these features, don’t have a complex endorsement, and don’t have at least BasicMed. Always a chance of getting ramp checked by someone who views the rules a little differently.
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I don’t worry about that.
 
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