DME died - do NOT recommend GPS

Discussion in 'Avionics and Upgrades' started by murphey, Jan 23, 2021.

  1. sourdough44

    sourdough44 Pattern Altitude

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    Older, ‘legacy’ avionics can be cheap. Try to find a late model, working replacement. The next option, look out the window.
     
  2. asicer

    asicer Final Approach

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    A GTR225 is only $2145 (MSRP). With the GNC355, you lose some screen real estate due to the frequency display and the knob isn't as easy to use because it's shared with the COMM. The GPS175+GTR225 combo is only $145 (MSRP) more than a GNC355 but it's easier to read, easier to use and you gain a couple of extra timers.

    If you are willing to do a GPS175+GTR200 combo, it's even $800 cheaper than the GNC355. The only advantage I see to the GNC355 is that it takes up less space.
     
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  3. Ravioli

    Ravioli Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    So, @murphey - Did you get the memo on GPS?

    And don't let them talk you into anything but a GTN or you'll hit one of those foothills out your way!
     
  4. David Megginson

    David Megginson Cleared for Takeoff

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    While the meaning has changed, as meanings do, Luddites were originally unemployed workers in the north of England 200 years ago (at the start of the Industrial Revolution) who burned down mills and smashed equipment. I don't think they had any personal aversion to technology, as long as they didn't think it was stealing their jobs. A modern Luddite would be smashing AI robots on a computerised assembly line. :)
     
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  5. Morgan3820

    Morgan3820 En-Route

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    I like mine. And I have an Avidyne gps. If it died I would look to replace it. A good one on ebay is $1200+. Someone must want them.
     
  6. schmookeeg

    schmookeeg Administrator Management Council Member

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    Of the myriad DME units I've flown behind, I can't say I could pick one from another as superior. They all do the same one trick.

    I'd find a used replacement for your current, exact DME unit and swap it in. I'd expect to pay $1-200 for the thing as DME is way out of fashion.
     
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  7. Tarheelpilot

    Tarheelpilot En-Route

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    Luddite is also used as an insult towards people that resist new technologies in the work place. If the individual I quoted was in a zoo, he would be the monkey throwing poo.

    You see, he was insulting people in this thread and I politely called him out. Sounds like you enjoy history rather than insulting people. I can easily see how you didn’t follow the conversation.
     
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  8. Morgan3820

    Morgan3820 En-Route

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    Remove the hyphen and you would be correct. Someone must want the things.
     
  9. David Megginson

    David Megginson Cleared for Takeoff

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    No, I understood your point. I just thought it would be fun to add an historical footnote.

    Cheers.
     
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  10. Tarheelpilot

    Tarheelpilot En-Route

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    Yeah. I figured you did. I was just using it as a spring board to tell steingar he was being a turd
    :biggrin:
     
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  11. WDD

    WDD Pattern Altitude

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    It will be Luddites that save us from SkyNet.......
    upload_2021-1-27_21-0-53.png
    BTW - not to be confused with StarLink ... completely different.... absolutely
     
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  12. murphey

    murphey Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    How are they ... completely and absolutely different?
     
  13. WDD

    WDD Pattern Altitude

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    You ask too many questions human, ... er, I mean, fellow pilot.
     
  14. David Megginson

    David Megginson Cleared for Takeoff

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    Skynet is a major plot feature in an economically-successful film franchise.

    Starlink is yet another economically-dubious satellite-web-access initiative.

    Q.E.D.
     
  15. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Besides the few widely-scattered stores, Radio Shack seems to have gone back into the mail-order business.
     
  16. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    In my neighborhood, the lion's share of the value is the dirt underneath the house!
     
  17. David Megginson

    David Megginson Cleared for Takeoff

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    In Canada, Radio Shack sold out a while ago (well over 10 years) to a chain called The Source, which is now owned by Bell. For a long time, The Source was exactly the same as the old Radio Shack, with walls of little electronic components, etc. There's a tiny bit of that left, but it's more about mobile phones and gadgets now. That's probably what would have happened to the Radio Shack mall (etc.) retail stores in the U.S., too, if the chain hadn't gone bankrupt. People just don't solder transisters and capacitors onto circuit boards much any more.
     
  18. George Mohr

    George Mohr Line Up and Wait

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    Get a 430W!! (I kid, I kid)
     
  19. murphey

    murphey Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Just got the email from Gulf Coast....used 430W on sale. Not a very good price, either.
     
  20. WDD

    WDD Pattern Altitude

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    Do you need an ADSB transponder as well? How are your coms? Nav radios?
     
  21. Arnold

    Arnold Cleared for Takeoff

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    I think being labelled a luddite here should be considered a badge of honor. We old timers can maintain situational awareness without the magenta line or the moving map.

    Name calling is not helpful. https://www.amazon.com/Really-Need-...earned+in+Kindergarten:&qid=1611921193&sr=8-1.

    I don't doubt the utility of modern avionics. But see: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/23/...tives-navigation-critical-infrastructure.html.

    Most IFR flying is not in IMC. It is climb through a layer, descend through a layer, use the approach to find the runway. 1000' overcast is much more common that 200' obscured (there are some locations where this is likely not true, looking at you ACK).

    Even with reduced VOR and DME ground stations the old ground based systems are a) still available and working, and b) more secure.

    - Rant Off -
     
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  22. steingar

    steingar Taxi to Parking

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    I have always read accident reports. Whenever I acquire a new airplane I look up accident reports for said new airplane. When I got my first airplane, a Cessna 150 20 years ago I focused on Cessna 150 accidents. There was a whole raft of them where people got lost, ran out of gas, and crashed. There were training flights with CFIs where it happened. I don't see those anymore. Do what you want. you do you, I'll me. But this stuff happened. And I'll bet they all said the same thing as you. "We don't need this stuff". A bunch of them died.
     
  23. Arnold

    Arnold Cleared for Takeoff

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    First, I never said "We don't need this stuff." Do not misquote me please.

    Second, I agree that accident rates are down and getting lost takes effort with GPS.

    Third, don't call people names - it's just rude.

    Fourth, my point is not that I don't need modern avionics, my point is that many do need it. I am concerned that needing GPS may not be wise.

    Fifth, the decision to accept VOR/DME navigation is not a poor decision and may be prescient.

    Hopefully those who do need GPS will stay on the ground when it isn't working.

    That all said. I normally fly with a minimum of two VFR gps systems with moving map and AHARS, one with ADSB-IN, and a handheld radio that receives and displays ground based nav stations. And two days worth of battery power for at least one device AND a satellite emergency radio/beacon.

    You are not wrong to fly with a heavily equipped panel. My point is, OP is not wrong to fly without one.
     
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  24. David Megginson

    David Megginson Cleared for Takeoff

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    I'm sure the (possibly fictional) Captain Ludd would have been happy to use a GPS today, as long as it didn't put him and his followers out of work.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ned_Ludd
     
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  25. WDD

    WDD Pattern Altitude

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    Each of us is adult enough to decide what works for him/her. I don’t fear an airplane is going to rain down on me because it doesn’t have a GPS nav system.
     
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  26. David Megginson

    David Megginson Cleared for Takeoff

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    Fully agree. VFR-only pilots don't need panel-mounted GPS, for ever and ever, amen. A compass, a watch, and a finger on a paper chart will do you just fine.

    But if you want to fly IFR in the system, unfortunately, it's already increasingly inconvenient without RNAV capability in 2021, and it will be all but impossible in a few years. The last four-course (A/N) range in Alaska wasn't decommissioned until the 1970s, but from the 1950s on (with the rise of "omni" or VOR), it seems that was increasingly difficult actually to fly anywhere using A/N courses, because the network of transmitters got sparser and sparser. We're seeing the same thing happening now with NDBs and VORs — they're going to keep just enough VORs to let us navigate to some airport in an emergency, but not necessarily to an airport anywhere near where we want to fly.

    So this isn't really a matter of preference, unfortunately; if you want to fly IFR, you'll need RNAV capability, either right now or very soon (depending on where you live). I loved—and still love—VOR and NDB navigation. I enjoyed watching my DME tick down as I got closer to the next VOR station, then watching the TO/FROM flag flip, or following an NDB Romeo airway and judging how close I got to right over the transmitter by how fast the needle spun around. I was (and am) proud of my ability to hand-fly an NDB hold or approach.

    But most of my beloved NDBs have been decommissioned, the VORs are either shut down or NOTAM'd U/S for months at a time, and the Victor airways around me were removed from the charts, so even I couldn't hold out any longer—the writing was on the wall, in 10 ft high neon letters.
     
  27. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Dealing with such emergencies can be handled with a handheld GPS, which is much less expensive than a panel-mounted one.
     
  28. WDD

    WDD Pattern Altitude

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    If I was asked, I would say never fly ifr without a GPS Nav. But the OP can for now fly IFR without one, wants to, and I have no reason to doubt he can that safely - heck, better than I can - I’m just starting to learn.

    He wants an old school DME. Peachy. I think a GPS will give him the DME function he needs now and in the future and be cost effective, but he doesn’t want that. All good. If he wants to fly with vacuum tubes and can do it safely that’s his call.
     
  29. Arnold

    Arnold Cleared for Takeoff

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    Not tubes but my all time favorite ADF:

    [​IMG]
     
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  30. WDD

    WDD Pattern Altitude

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    Remember building these things when you were in the Cub Scouts? That, and building from cutting up tin cans and winding thin wire a brush DC motor.

    [​IMG]
     
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  31. asicer

    asicer Final Approach

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    Not exactly. The OP stated in post #1 and in post #35 that they want GPS. It's just that it has to be on their terms rather than terms dictated by a flaky DME.
     
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  32. murphey

    murphey Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Update....finally got to the hangar, pulled the unit out (5/64th hex) and hit the connections with RS Contact cleaner. Worked just fine. Then I changed the frequency - nope. Went back to the original frequency. Nope.

    Unfortunately, I can't crawl under the panel to hit the connectors in the back with cleaner (knee replacement) so it'll have to wait until I can talk someone into being a contortionist.
     
  33. Ryan Klems

    Ryan Klems Pre-takeoff checklist

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    What model Narco is it?
     
  34. murphey

    murphey Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Narco 190.

    I can get under the airplane on the creeper, and will clean up the connectors this weekend. Hopefully, someone will be around who's willing to crawl under the panel.
     
  35. GRG55

    GRG55 Final Approach

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    Radio Shaft is still around? :eek: Hoocuddaknowd.

    Find a direct used replacement for the DME you have. Nothing likely to be cheaper. The older stuff such as DMEs and ADFs are hardly worth anything now.

    Your alternative is to just get it over with and buy a nice Bonanza where someone already Garminized the whole panel; when you post pictures that'll quiet down everyone here. :) But only for a moment. ;)
     
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  36. schmookeeg

    schmookeeg Administrator Management Council Member

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    eBay has approximately a brazillion of those for 40-60 bucks apiece. You might rattle a local avionic shop and see if they have one holding a restroom door open or something, and offer a modest six-pack of domestic refreshment in trade.

    For the potential BS factor an unknown replacement unit represents, I'd pay more for one with some flavor of guarantee, or better, the local shop who you can pay to bench and install the thing for a few hundo, so that if they fry your other wiring they're on the hook for repairs.
     
  37. DKirkpatrick

    DKirkpatrick Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Had one of these... took it to an avionics shop and the guy just said "leave it with me..." next day it was in the panel and working fine. Interrogating him a bit further, he said he knew of a couple of spots on a board that were traditionally weak right from the factory... he touched them with a soldering iron, and unit works again. It stayed working until I sold the airplane years later... I like the idea that there's a "fix in here somewhere..."
     
  38. Getonit

    Getonit Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Has anybody suggested a tablet with GPS?
     
  39. David Megginson

    David Megginson Cleared for Takeoff

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    No, fortunately (since we're talking about IFR).
     
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  40. PeterNSteinmetz

    PeterNSteinmetz Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

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    That is what was happening to RS in the US. Fewer and fewer components and more and more cell phones, etc.

    You could still pick up resistors and connectors though. So I miss them.