Direct to the numbers

DrPappy

DrPappy

Pre-takeoff checklist
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DrPappy
On occasion when a plane is landing and still maybe 5 miles out they are instructed to enter on base, but I will then hear the controllers say "Fly direct to the numbers." I assume that is for spacing, fine. The question is if you do follow the instruction verbatim, then you are going to land long since you've cut short your final leg (assuming no aerobatics here !). Is that what is expected, or what are you supposed to do? I've looked in the FAR/AIM and Googled it, but can't find anything.

Thanks
 
Turn final as close to the numbers as you can without jeopardizing your safe landing.
 
Proceed inbound (direct to runway). Basically just a non standard pattern as directed by ATC.
 
Why would you land long?

Fly direct to the threshold, base to final turn to forward slip, flaps all in, throttle out, to decel slip, you should still be able to chirp your mains on the piano keys.

Real world, if you're doing patten work and the tower asks you to go direct the numbers, you really need to be flying tighter patterns, don't be flying a 747 patten in a GA single ;)
 
Sounds like what it is. Fly directly to the numbers and don't worry about a rectangular pattern.
 
Probably just wants you landing ASAP to make room for other traffic that is coming.
 
James331 said:
Real world, if you're doing patten work and the tower asks you to go direct the numbers, you really need to be flying tighter patterns, don't be flying a 747 patten in a GA single ;)
Click to expand...

Not quite James. It might a situation where I had a fast mover inbound and I want to get you on the ground quicker by having you fly direct to the numbers vs flying a full traffic pattern (downwind, base, final). I'm trying to get you down and out of the way, then I won't have to break you out or send the fast mover around. More likely something like this than flying a 747 pattern. Cheers!
 
For how I fly my patterns, and how I teach my students to fly them, it's more like a tight oval compared to a squared off "stabilized" pussyfoot pattern many kids do nowadays. By default I'm direct the numbers.
 
Is that the recommended pattern in the AIM? :rolleyes:
If you're a CFI, that's what you should be teaching a student. Showing them other ways to fly a pattern is fine too, but you should be doing it the way the FAA wants it taught primarily, IMO.
 
He said AIM... heehee Didn't "we" recently cover the irrelevance of the AIM?
 
mscard88 said:
Is that the recommended pattern in the AIM? :rolleyes:
If you're a CFI, that's what you should be teaching a student. Showing them other ways to fly a pattern is fine too, but you should be doing it the way the FAA wants it taught IMO.
Click to expand...

Just how I learned how to fly, but I'm a rebel, I do dangerous things like slips, flying without a iPad, hand flipping, landing on places that aren't marked on charts or the AFD, uhh, I mean chart supplement, as an airport.

I see zero benefit to flying a yuuuge squared off pattern.
 
"Direct to the numbers", they aren't asking you to do any crazy maneuvers, just exactly what it implies, no base squared to final, just bring it straight on in.
 
Flying without an iPad is just plain crazy...nuts.
 
Well I do those 'dangerous' things too James, but I give my students instruction that I am responsible for and expected to give them. Nothing wrong with exposing students to other techniques or procedures as I said. AIM? I know it's recommended but it's a pretty good text explaining a lot of material. Bottom line, guess you'll do it your way and I'll do it mine, which has been satisfactory for the 38 years I've held a CFI.
 
Yeah I've always took it to mean to fly straight to the runway from wherever you are. No downwind or base. You are basically on a non straight in final.
 
mscard88 said:
Well I do those 'dangerous' things too James, but I give my students instruction that I am responsible for and expected to give them. Nothing wrong with exposing students to other techniques or procedures as I said. AIM? I know it's recommended but it's a pretty good text explaining a lot of material. Bottom line, guess you'll do it your way and I'll do it mine, which has been satisfactory for the 38 years I've held a CFI.
Click to expand...
James has a history of promoting ignorance in pilots.
 
James331 said:
Why would you land long?

Fly direct to the threshold, base to final turn to forward slip, flaps all in, throttle out, to decel slip, you should still be able to chirp your mains on the piano keys.

Real world, if you're doing patten work and the tower asks you to go direct the numbers, you really need to be flying tighter patterns, don't be flying a 747 patten in a GA single ;)
Click to expand...

OK, yeah a nice "stabilized approach"...got ya'. o_O
 
I had my first real emergency this past weekend. The engine was starting to bog down and surge repeatedlyat about 25 miles out. It got progressively worse to the point I thought I was putting it down in the lake. Tower moved a couple planes and there was a hawker coming into the pattern. Tower directed him to proceed direct to the numbers since I was only about 3 miles out. I watched the hawker make a tight 180 drop and bee line for the runway. I was glad he did because then I went ahead and followed him direct to the numbers.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk
 
I have had this discussion with the people who work the tower at KSMX.

When I call the Santa Maria tower from ten miles to the east I am North of the centerline if they tell me to make a straight for runway three zero in it means to intercept the centerline and then fly straight in on the centerline.

If they tell me to fly direct to the numbers for runway three zero it means they don’t want me to make a straight in but rather fly and intercept the centerline near the end of the runway. This allows them to have faster aircraft on the centerline or get me on the ground sooner.

This also allows me to stay lower because I don’t have to fly over the hills staying out of the way of reginal jets and tankers.

I often take my clients on a tower tour and ask this sort of question so we are all on the same page with ATC instructions.

I asked the people in the tower at KSBP and this is also what they want me to do when they say to fly direct to the numbers and will often include the instruction stay south of the centerline or north of the centerline depending on my location.

“Direct” in the pilot/controller glossary is direct between to navigation points and is probably not applicable.
 
I guess it depends what you're flying. In most of the small stuff you can turn base at the numbers and still touch down at the big stripe (roughly 1000' down the runway where the GS tends to bring you in anyhow).
 
What is so difficult about this? :confused2::dunno:

No, @DrPappy, they are not asking you to forego safety, fly to the numbers at pattern altitude and spin down to the runway. They are simply asking you to forget about that base leg and fly directly to final. No unusual maneuvering required. You still set up for landing the same way you normally do, including intercepting final far out enough to make your normal stabilized final (assuming that's what you do).
 
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Vance Breese said:
I have had this discussion with the people who work the tower at KSMX.

When I call the Santa Maria tower from ten miles to the east I am North of the centerline if they tell me to make a straight for runway three zero in it means to intercept the centerline and then fly straight in on the centerline.

If they tell me to fly direct to the numbers for runway three zero it means they don’t want me to make a straight in but rather fly and intercept the centerline near the end of the runway. This allows them to have faster aircraft on the centerline or get me on the ground sooner.

This also allows me to stay lower because I don’t have to fly over the hills staying out of the way of reginal jets and tankers.

I often take my clients on a tower tour and ask this sort of question so we are all on the same page with ATC instructions.

I asked the people in the tower at KSBP and this is also what they want me to do when they say to fly direct to the numbers and will often include the instruction stay south of the centerline or north of the centerline depending on my location.

“Direct” in the pilot/controller glossary is direct between to navigation points and is probably not applicable.
Click to expand...

"Between two points" is also part of the definition of direct.

What you won't find is "direct to the numbers" in the PCG or the controller's manual for standard phraseology.
 
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James331 said:
Just how I learned how to fly, but I'm a rebel, I do dangerous things like slips, flying without a iPad, hand flipping, landing on places that aren't marked on charts or the AFD, uhh, I mean chart supplement, as an airport.

I see zero benefit to flying a yuuuge squared off pattern.
Click to expand...
Just because your pattern is rectangular in shape, does not mean it has to be "yuuuge". 1/2 mile is about right.
 
Vance Breese said:
I have had this discussion with the people who work the tower at KSMX.

When I call the Santa Maria tower from ten miles to the east I am North of the centerline if they tell me to make a straight for runway three zero in it means to intercept the centerline and then fly straight in on the centerline.

If they tell me to fly direct to the numbers for runway three zero it means they don’t want me to make a straight in but rather fly and intercept the centerline near the end of the runway. This allows them to have faster aircraft on the centerline or get me on the ground sooner.

This also allows me to stay lower because I don’t have to fly over the hills staying out of the way of reginal jets and tankers.

I often take my clients on a tower tour and ask this sort of question so we are all on the same page with ATC instructions.

I asked the people in the tower at KSBP and this is also what they want me to do when they say to fly direct to the numbers and will often include the instruction stay south of the centerline or north of the centerline depending on my location.

“Direct” in the pilot/controller glossary is direct between to navigation points and is probably not applicable.
Click to expand...
Keep in mind SMX is a little weird. That's the only tower that has ever ASKED me to fly a B-52 pattern. They want it at least 1 mile. I prefer half that.

And they have a pink centerline.
 
Fearless Tower said:
This is POA. We must make the simplest concepts the most difficult.

Have you seen the 'call your base' thread?
Click to expand...
Indeed I have. Even managed to get involved in that one.

There are plenty of these kinds of questions and I don't blame folks for asking. For folks training out of a nontowered airport, I think there isn't enough time spent at towered airports or even discussing the wide variety of instructions one might get at towered airports. The pilots often end up thinking there is one form of traffic pattern because they are simply not exposed to the variety. Those of us who have spent substantial time at towered airports, especially busy ones, have heard ATC instructions for downwind, base and final entries from both sides of the airfield, midfield crosswing entries, to make short approaches, to fly straight to the numbers, to extend our downwind, to have our base leg called, to turn crosswind early when doing touch & goes, to make s-turns, 360s, and teardrops, to reject instructions when they don't fit our druthers, etc. Even if we haven't heard it all, the variety we have hears lets us understand there are many things we might be asked to do and not immediately be thrown by it.
 
Turn towards the Runway.
MAKG1 said:
Keep in mind SMX is a little weird. That's the only tower that has ever ASKED me to fly a B-52 pattern. They want it at least 1 mile. I prefer half that.

And they have a pink centerline.
Click to expand...

Borate?
 
bluerooster said:
Just because your pattern is rectangular in shape, does not mean it has to be "yuuuge". 1/2 mile is about right.
Click to expand...

When I first was working towards solo in a 7AC, I was taught to keep my landing strip half way on my wing strut (1k AGL pattern), I started rounding the "edges" off my pattern after spending some time around the glider port, the more I thought about it, making little 90 degree turns really doesn't translate well into the sky, looks very neat on paper though.

From teaching a few folks myself too, I've found that the max it should take you for touch and goes is .1 Hobbs per t&g, doesn't take anything heroic or aerobatic to make that happen, but you can't be turning downwind another county away, some of he patterns I've seen, makes me wonder if they are logging the downwind as cross country time ;)

As your experience increases I'd expect the pattern to shrink, plane and mission dictation of course.
 
MAKG1 said:
Keep in mind SMX is a little weird. That's the only tower that has ever ASKED me to fly a B-52 pattern. They want it at least 1 mile. I prefer half that.

And they have a pink centerline.
Click to expand...

SMX is a tanker base and there have been several fires abound here lately causing flights to be made often.

It is my observation all the tankers leak a little making the runway at SMX pink.

The closer the fire the pinker the runway.

I fly a close pattern (about a quarter mile out) at 800 feet (rotorcraft pattern altitude) so that I can make the runway in the event of an engine malfunction.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Indeed I have. Even managed to get involved in that one.

There are plenty of these kinds of questions and I don't blame folks for asking. For folks training out of a nontowered airport, I think there isn't enough time spent at towered airports or even discussing the wide variety of instructions one might get at towered airports. The pilots often end up thinking there is one form of traffic pattern because they are simply not exposed to the variety. Those of us who have spent substantial time at towered airports, especially busy ones, have heard ATC instructions for downwind, base and final entries from both sides of the airfield, midfield crosswing entries, to make short approaches, to fly straight to the numbers, to extend our downwind, to have our base leg called, to turn crosswind early when doing touch & goes, to make s-turns, 360s, and teardrops, to reject instructions when they don't fit our druthers, etc. Even if we haven't heard it all, the variety we have hears lets us understand there are many things we might be asked to do and not immediately be thrown by it.
Click to expand...
True. I have no issue with folks asking questions, but the answers to those two questions are pretty simple, yet the threads go on and on, and then people start arguing...

I think that's what Fearless Tower meant when he wrote...

Fearless Tower said:
This is POA. We must make the simplest concepts the most difficult.

Have you seen the 'call your base' thread?
Click to expand...
 
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linuxjim said:
I had my first real emergency this past weekend. The engine was starting to bog down and surge repeatedlyat about 25 miles out. It got progressively worse to the point I thought I was putting it down in the lake. Tower moved a couple planes and there was a hawker coming into the pattern. Tower directed him to proceed direct to the numbers since I was only about 3 miles out. I watched the hawker make a tight 180 drop and bee line for the runway. I was glad he did because then I went ahead and followed him direct to the numbers.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Glad you made it safe. What was the problem?
 
Thanks. Me too. :) Talking to the mechanic he's expecting water or air in the fuel. Unfortunately it happened Friday afternoon so everyone was gone. I'm hoping to get it in this week to confirm. It had just come out of annual a week before and I flew it 3 hrs home without issue... Either way I can definitely confirm at least in this case, straight to the numbers, meant to expedite the landing process for separation. Controller did offer to "box him out" if I needed too.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk
 
rolivi said:
He said AIM... heehee Didn't "we" recently cover the irrelevance of the AIM?
Click to expand...
straw+man.jpg
 
James331 said:
When I first was working towards solo in a 7AC, I was taught to keep my landing strip half way on my wing strut (1k AGL pattern), I started rounding the "edges" off my pattern after spending some time around the glider port, the more I thought about it, making little 90 degree turns really doesn't translate well into the sky, looks very neat on paper though.

From teaching a few folks myself too, I've found that the max it should take you for touch and goes is .1 Hobbs per t&g, doesn't take anything heroic or aerobatic to make that happen, but you can't be turning downwind another county away, some of he patterns I've seen, makes me wonder if they are logging the downwind as cross country time ;)

As your experience increases I'd expect the pattern to shrink, plane and mission dictation of course.
Click to expand...

Yep.

I think trying to make two square turns (one to base and one to final) increases the likelihood that I will overfly my final turn a bit and have to correct for it. This is of course what causes many of the stall-spin accidents on final. Rounding the two turns into a single U-turn, really helps to alleviate if not eliminate this risk. Of course, if everyone else is on a B-52 style wide pattern, I will usually fall in line and end up flying a more square pattern to go with the flow.
 
SkyDog58 said:
Yep.

I think trying to make two square turns (one to base and one to final) increases the likelihood that I will overfly my final turn a bit and have to correct for it. This is of course what causes many of the stall-spin accidents on final. Rounding the two turns into a single U-turn, really helps to alleviate if not eliminate this risk. Of course, if everyone else is on a B-52 style wide pattern, I will usually fall in line and end up flying a more square pattern to go with the flow.
Click to expand...
I couldn't agree more. Shallow turns in the pattern and an eagle eye on airspeed will keep you well above the stall speed. As long as I can level my wings for a few seconds on base, to check for a possible straight-in, I'm good.
 
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