Denied entry into class Delta

WannFly said:
I am in class d, I always get a squawk code when I am not flying in the pattern

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Funny. My class d usually only gives a code if you're staying in the pattern or transitioning into the overhead bravo.
 
Katamarino said:
Wasn't criticizing you, just commenting in general. Very unprofessional of the controller.
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Agree, and I was a controller. She could get in a lot of trouble for doing a stunt like that, especially if she's done it before.
 
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As I controller I've held planes out, but this was mainly at a very busy USAF base (Eglin) and military had priority. You can argue about that, but when the Commander, a 2 star, in charge of a Test Wing well I ain't gonna argue. I've had to hold aero club planes out or have them circle for a few minutes. I once instructed 2 Test Wing F-4s to remain outside of the ATA (what it was called then) and what did they do? Declared emergency fuel so had to get them in. And they say enlisted folks are cunning...shoooot.

Class D, as Timbeck says, you'd better play along if the controller instructs you to do something, C & B for that matter too. Just because you've established communications doesn't mean you can ignore ATC instructions and head for the airport. Good way to meet Mr FAAisyourfriend.
 
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jordane93 said:
Happens occasionally at the airport I flight instruct at. Lots student pilots mixed in with lots of charter operations makes the airspace very busy. The control tower is also a training tower so things can get backed up quite a bit.
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Holy jeez, the blind leading the blind. This is FRG, right?
 
MassPilot said:
I hear KHPN is a Class D that operates like a Class C and requires you to contact New York Approach and get on a code.
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rocketflyer84 said:
Yes, flew there this summer and can confirm [ that KHPN is a class D that operates like a Class C and requires you to ... get a code] . It's sort of a local secret since you won't find this printed anywhere or even mentioned in the ATIS but that's the practice. You can call up the tower directly and they will give you a code and tag you up themselves if you didn't get handed off by approach.
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I had hoped to fly into KHPN (Westchester County/ White Plains New York) this past weekend and read about this open secret in POA. I really appreciate getting the heads up before hand. I read that you can contact approach on 124.6 to get the squawk code prior to calling up the tower.

Also, I believe they want you to call CD 127.25 prior to calling ground even if you are VFR.
 
MassPilot said:
I hear KHPN is a Class D that operates like a Class C and requires you to contact New York Approach and get on a code.
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They often do, however I have transitioned their airspace without doing that before. That was specifically on a day when I received "Remain clear of Class Bravo" from NY approach. Actually, it was the ONLY time I've been told to remain clear of the bravo when VFR and talking to NY approach. Normally those guys seem to have a contest to see how many airplanes they can pack into their sector. Great controllers.
 
We got a 'stay clear of class D airspace' at KDVT (Deer Valley) once. That was the only time we were not allowed to immediately enter an airspace...
 
mscard88 said:
Lemme enlighten y'all. ALL towers and radar facilities constantly train controllers. Constantly.
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I was waiting for someone to give that response... :)

But I do have a question about that. It seems like my local control tower gets two waves of new voices/controllers each year. Are there specific times of the year when new people are more likely to start?
 
Rockymountain said:
I thought the proper terminology was "aircraft calling" remain outside of Delta. If they read back your tail number (that establishes 2-way communication) I thought that guaranteed clearance into Delta.
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Using your call sign means you have established 2-way radio contact, a prerequisite for entry. And if nothing else is said, you may enter Class D (or C). But once you establish communications, you still have to obey ATC instructions, including, "Remain clear."
 
mondtster said:
I was waiting for someone to give that response... :)

But I do have a question about that. It seems like my local control tower gets two waves of new voices/controllers each year. Are there specific times of the year when new people are more likely to start?
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That I do not know as I was an Air Force controller. As people transferred in and out (military so ya move a lot), washed out, got kicked out for dope, and a ton of other reasons, we had new controllers all the time. Plus, rated (experienced) controllers transferring in had to learn the new facility and airspace, which wasn't that bad as those folks got thru in no time. Like I said, that's the military. FAA probably similar but I don't know.
 
I've been denied entry to D once, departing on a lunch run right after a Champion. The Champions was cleared through the D, the rest of us had to go around . . .

ATL has never cleared me into their Bravo, even when I've asked specifically for a T Route by number and been on an IFR flight plan. So now, I just hold my altitude (8000-10,000 msl), zoom the 430W in to about 25nm scale, and keep my wingtip just barely outside the little green line. This is even more fun VFR, they get to vector the big boys around me if I'm on the Approach side.

If they ignore my requests, I'll make my life as easy as possible and add the fewest extra miles to my trip. The typical detour adds almost 30 minutes to my typical "across Atlanta" flight, while putting me on the T Route designed exactly for doing what I want to do will save me time and them aggravation. But they never learn . . . .
 
mscard88 said:
Lemme enlighten y'all. ALL towers and radar facilities constantly train controllers. Constantly.
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There is a difference between training someone experienced for a new sector and training someone fresh out of the academy for their first position.
 
weilke said:
There is a difference between training someone experienced for a new sector and training someone fresh out of the academy for their first position.
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Yup said that in post #54.
 
I've never been denied entrance into my home field PAJN, but I have heard others refused entry.
 
Timbeck2 said:
I find it confusing that people would want to enter busy airspace with the comments I've read such as "if ATC reads back your call sign then you can enter."

I'm perfectly happy holding outside until its safe(r) to fly into that airspace. In my opinion, those pilots who use the "well, they talked to me so its okay if I fly into their airspace" need a situational awareness wake-up (close) call.
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Indeed, exchanges like the following have happened:
"Charlie Approach, Cessna 12345"
"Cessna 12345, Charlie Approach."
"Cessna 12345 is a blah blah blah [type position altitude intentions]"
"Cessna 12345, remain clear of class charlie..."
 
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BigBadLou said:
I flew to see a friend on Saturday and on the way back to my towered home field, I squeezed in my tail number on the radio (the tower controller was busy as can be with multiple students, plenty inbound aircraft and some outbound too) just to hear back "XYZ, stay clear of the Delta airspace".
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Maybe they just don't like you.

But hey, it could be worse. Just the other day they told me to stay clear of the Echo airspace. :p
 
I've been denied entry into the local delta once. I had my young head up my a$$ and told the controller I heard he was losing his job.

I had to explain to the Chief why I couldn't do my required landings that day after the long trip back to home base.
 
dmspilot said:
Indeed, exchanges like the following have happened:
"Charlie Approach, Cessna 12345"
"Cessna 12345, Charlie Approach."
"Cessna 12345 is a blah blah blah [type position altitude intentions]"
"Cessna 12345, remain clear of class charlie..."
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Class C "remain clear" is fairly common in some areas, typically when flying in directions that present a potential conflict with arrival/departure routes.
 
Hank S said:
ATL has never cleared me into their Bravo, even when I've asked specifically for a T Route by number and been on an IFR flight plan. So now, I just hold my altitude (8000-10,000 msl), zoom the 430W in to about 25nm scale, and keep my wingtip just barely outside the little green line. This is even more fun VFR, they get to vector the big boys around me if I'm on the Approach side.
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I don't even try to go thru ATL anymore if I'm going south. I pick which way 'round is better and either file AHN or HEFIN depending, those are far enough out that they don't jack you up.
 
I've had that happen once at RYY. It was a bit busy, but I've seen much busier at PDK. That controller was a bit of a slacker though; don't know if he's still there or not, it was years ago. If the weather went from IMC to VMC he wouldn't update ATIS until the hour was up. That way he'd have less traffic do deal with. I had to wait for the ATIS update time more than once after the weather had improved a while before that when I was there and didn't have my IR when he was working the tower. Other tower workers would update it before the regular cycle if it changed from IMC to VMC or the reverse. If it went from VMC to IMC he'd quickly update ATIS.
 
wayne said:
I've had that happen once at RYY. It was a bit busy, but I've seen much busier at PDK. That controller was a bit of a slacker though; don't know if he's still there or not, it was years ago. If the weather went from IMC to VMC he wouldn't update ATIS until the hour was up. That way he'd have less traffic do deal with. I had to wait for the ATIS update time more than once after the weather had improved a while before that when I was there and didn't have my IR when he was working the tower. Other tower workers would update it before the regular cycle if it changed from IMC to VMC or the reverse. If it went from VMC to IMC he'd quickly update ATIS.
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Controllers are required to update the ATIS for any significant changes, especially if the field goes IMC. The controller should have counseled on it. I wouldn't have had a problem complaining to the Tower Chief and the FSDO if necessary.
 
BigBadLou said:
I flew to see a friend on Saturday and on the way back to my towered home field, I squeezed in my tail number on the radio (the tower controller was busy as can be with multiple students, plenty inbound aircraft and some outbound too) just to hear back "XYZ, stay clear of the Delta airspace"...... ;)
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So.....maybe you weren't doin it right? :D
 
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Hank S said:
I've been denied entry to D once, departing on a lunch run right after a Champion. The Champions was cleared through the D, the rest of us had to go around . . .

ATL has never cleared me into their Bravo, even when I've asked specifically for a T Route by number and been on an IFR flight plan. So now, I just hold my altitude (8000-10,000 msl), zoom the 430W in to about 25nm scale, and keep my wingtip just barely outside the little green line. This is even more fun VFR, they get to vector the big boys around me if I'm on the Approach side.

If they ignore my requests, I'll make my life as easy as possible and add the fewest extra miles to my trip. The typical detour adds almost 30 minutes to my typical "across Atlanta" flight, while putting me on the T Route designed exactly for doing what I want to do will save me time and them aggravation. But they never learn . . . .
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Just gotta know the secret password. :)
 
Bill Jennings said:
OK, out with it!
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Well, I will say in this instance I just got done visiting an old friend at the TRACON. I've done the over the top route only one other time. Most days I'm denied entry. :(
 
Scott@KTYR said:
I have never heard of Class D giving squawk code for entry. Must be a Big Class D!!!!
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There are lots of class D airports with radar service. It is not denoted on the map like a TRSA but functions pretty much the same. Clarksburg, WV, Sioux City, IA Bismarck, ND Grand Forks, ND all have radar service yet they are neither Class C or TRSA. I call it mystery radar service (MRSA), the TRACON is either FAA, ANG or USAF operated.
 
I fly out of KRDG (Reading, PA) Class D and they have the "Stealth Approach" service. One of only three in the US I believe. Behaves like a TRSA, yet the only real way to know approach exists is through the A/FD. It's not published on the sectionals. So I often hear others calling tower directly only to be told "remain clear of the class Delta airspace. Contact approach on 125.15". Most area pilots are familiar with the procedures, but on a nice day, you hear it a couple of times.

Also, instead of the approach controllers being below the tower in a windowless room, they are on top with the other controllers. This, along with training/number of aircraft using the services (not enough) is the reason the service isn't published like other RSA (I believe).
 
Velocity173 said:
Well, I will say in this instance I just got done visiting an old friend at the TRACON. I've done the over the top route only one other time. Most days I'm denied entry. :(
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Hahahahahaha......
 
bmoeller said:
I fly out of KRDG (Reading, PA) Class D and they have the "Stealth Approach" service. One of only three in the US I believe. Behaves like a TRSA, yet the only real way to know approach exists is through the A/FD. It's not published on the sectionals. So I often hear others calling tower directly only to be told "remain clear of the class Delta airspace. Contact approach on 125.15". Most area pilots are familiar with the procedures, but on a nice day, you hear it a couple of times.

Also, instead of the approach controllers being below the tower in a windowless room, they are on top with the other controllers. This, along with training/number of aircraft using the services (not enough) is the reason the service isn't published like other RSA (I believe).
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There are several class Ds in the US have approach control attached to them, including one I worked at (NBC).
 
Velocity173 said:
There are several class Ds in the US have approach control attached to them, including one I worked at (NBC).
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Really? Wow. I didn't know that. From what I was told and researched there were less than a handful like this. Am I correct on why the approach services are not designated on charts like TRSAs? That the FAA mandates a certain amount of traffic using the service and training before being considered? Not that our airport wants to or needs to transition into a new airspace classification, but the FAA marks other "oddities" on the charts, why not these approaches. Would just like to see them easily recognized on charts. A dark circle with an "A" next to the tower freq to show that there are approach services available.
 
The whole Northeast corridor and bit inland is essentially just one giant approach area... hence the concept of the IFR TEC routes for the region. The level of coordination between class D airports and that mesh of approach controls varies a lot.

When I flew into KHPN with flight following I had a code and handoff to tower with full sequencing to the ground (as I understand is the norm). Same situation nearby at KFRG on a recent trip and I got dumped at the shoreline, squawk 1200 contact tower where I'm told "your number 8 and told to join a conga line of VFR targets (as I also understand is normal there).

There's some method to the madness but the documentation on how it all works is lacking.
 
I heard a rumor from a guy in Hawaii that controllers are going to start keeping you out if you don't have an AOA
 
bmoeller said:
Really? Wow. I didn't know that. From what I was told and researched there were less than a handful like this. Am I correct on why the approach services are not designated on charts like TRSAs? That the FAA mandates a certain amount of traffic using the service and training before being considered? Not that our airport wants to or needs to transition into a new airspace classification, but the FAA marks other "oddities" on the charts, why not these approaches. Would just like to see them easily recognized on charts. A dark circle with an "A" next to the tower freq to show that there are approach services available.
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Just some of the military ones from the top of my head. NYL, GRK, VPS, NBC, NKT. Not sure the total amount but I'd say they outnumber TRSAs.

I agree, something on the sectional that indicates that tower has approach services would be nice.
 
weilke said:
There are lots of class D airports with radar service. It is not denoted on the map like a TRSA but functions pretty much the same. Clarksburg, WV, Sioux City, IA Bismarck, ND Grand Forks, ND all have radar service yet they are neither Class C or TRSA. I call it mystery radar service (MRSA), the TRACON is either FAA, ANG or USAF operated.
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I like that: MRSA. They seem to be common wherever there is an Air Force base. Rapid City, SD (Ellsworth AFB), and Minot, ND (Minot AFB), both have uncharted radar approach control. (Grand Forks is on your list and of course has an AFB.) But it's a mystery to me why Clarksburg, Sioux City, and Bismarck do. And an even bigger mystery what volume of airspace they control. VFR traffic is never required to contact them, but if you want to (often handy due to traffic advisories etc.) what are the ceiling, floor, and radius within which it's worthwhile? The Fargo TRSA has a 100/SFC ring at 6nm (with an extension on the south for instrument approaches), 100/25 ring at 20nm, and 100/60 ring at 30nm. So based on that, when I feel like talking to someone before I get close enough to talk to tower, I call up places like Bismarck Approach about 25nm out. But that's just a wild guess.
 
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