Delta Runway Crash in LGA

Art VanDelay said:
Actually I'm surprised stuff like this doesn't happen more often. Touching down on a slippery surface with just three wheels while going 150 mph can be quite precarious. They will likely call it pilot error but I'd call it runway condition error. We all would expect to be given a decent surface to put down on.
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Did I miss something where they were missing half their wheels in this incident? MD-80 is going to have 6 wheels
 
TazzyTazzy said:
Metar where I fly out of:

KEDU 060015Z AUTO 00000KT 10SM CLR 20/00 A3028 RMK AO1

Soo. Tell me why people hate Cali? :)
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I would rather crash in New York, then live in, or even visit California...:rolleyes:
 
N801BH said:
I would rather crash in New York, then live in, or even visit California...:rolleyes:
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If you've had: almonds, artichokes, dates, figs, kiwifruit, olives, persimmons, pistachios, prunes, raisins, clovers, and walnuts.

You're welcome, they came from California. :)
 
Oh geez - here we go...
 
N801BH said:
I would rather crash in New York, then live in, or even visit California...
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You'd rather crash in New York, and then live in California? Or were you trying to say "than"?
 
Somedudeintn said:
So can someone more experienced than me speculate on possible reasons the flight crew did not notify the tower or this incident? It seems that if a fire had started, etc. that rescue crews getting there in a timely matter would be critical.

I guess there is the possibility that they shut the master switch off (I don't have any experience in jets, but am guessing they have a master switch) so as to cut off electrical power that could spark a fire?
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According to some pax reports to the news, there was no electrical power to the PA and the cabin crew was using hand held radios to communicate. I think power interruption to the aircraft/radios would likely prevent external comms.
 
TazzyTazzy said:
If you've had: almonds, artichokes, dates, figs, kiwifruit, olives, persimmons, pistachios, prunes, raisins, clovers, and walnuts.

You're welcome, they came from California. :)
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Are those fruits and nuts?

:confused:
 
Somedudeintn said:
So can someone more experienced than me speculate on possible reasons the flight crew did not notify the tower or this incident? It seems that if a fire had started, etc. that rescue crews getting there in a timely matter would be critical.

I guess there is the possibility that they shut the master switch off (I don't have any experience in jets, but am guessing they have a master switch) so as to cut off electrical power that could spark a fire?
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At that point I would say ATC could see what was going on, they needed to take care of inside issues first and foremost.
 
Somedudeintn said:
So can someone more experienced than me speculate on possible reasons the flight crew did not notify the tower or this incident? It seems that if a fire had started, etc. that rescue crews getting there in a timely matter would be critical.

I guess there is the possibility that they shut the master switch off (I don't have any experience in jets, but am guessing they have a master switch) so as to cut off electrical power that could spark a fire?
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Assuming all equipment was working properly...

Aviate, Navigate, then (if time allows) Communicate.

The crew did right. They secured the plane, got the crew and passengers to (calmly) evacuate, and they evacuated.

In this situation, with the proximity to the berm from the runway, I'm guessing the crew had seconds from when the pilots realized something was wrong, to when they could have said something to ATC. And they spent those seconds getting their passengers and crew out of dodge.
 
TazzyTazzy said:
Soo. Tell me why people hate Cali? :)
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Shall we start with the Board of Equalization? That should be enough. If not, look into home prices in the Bay Area, LA, San Diego . . . We won't even go into traffic, or the crazies--scuse me, the fruits, nuts and flakes.

Hey, there's a reason California is called the Granola State.
 
Just curious, what tends to happen to the pilots in this sort of scenario? I mean it's safe to say weather was clear a factor but "pilot error" gets added in on these sorts of things too. Do they fly again or are they done? (Asking more generally than specially in this case as the investigation is obviously ongoing)
 
Hank S said:
Shall we start with the Board of Equalization? That should be enough. If not, look into home prices in the Bay Area, LA, San Diego . . . We won't even go into traffic, or the crazies--scuse me, the fruits, nuts and flakes.

Hey, there's a reason California is called the Granola State.
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There's a ****load of people who are living high on the hog on Bay Area real estate profits.
 
rocketflyer84 said:
Just curious, what tends to happen to the pilots in this sort of scenario? I mean it's safe to say weather was clear a factor but "pilot error" gets added in on these sorts of things too. Do they fly again or are they done? (Asking more generally than specially in this case as the investigation is obviously ongoing)
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They are not "done", not on the value of what we know now. Even if they made some errors in performance, they could potentially be non predicatable errors, ie ones with a known result, because the results of an action while sliding across ice are not well predictable in real time.

As long as they did not fail procedurally, they will not suffer more than some ribbing in hotel bars I would think. The FAA will likely have to perform a 709 ride for them and that will close it. If you are going to tell pilots, "go fly", at these levels of weather, then a certain amount of this stuff will happen.

We have to wait for way more information to figure out, like how the plane got there.
 
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rocketflyer84 said:
Just curious, what tends to happen to the pilots in this sort of scenario? I mean it's safe to say weather was clear a factor but "pilot error" gets added in on these sorts of things too. Do they fly again or are they done? (Asking more generally than specially in this case as the investigation is obviously ongoing)
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My guess is he'll get a call from the Chief Pilot and have a conversation.
 
bflynn said:
Freezing Fog?



"Braking Action Poor"
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A pilot for another carrier told me via FB that their crew that landed a while before the MD88 says the braking action was already so poor that they almost went off. They had already been turned and departed Runway 4 just before the MD88 slid off of 13. So in however long they were on the ground, sounds like it continued to get worse.
 
Continued thought: If they almost went off that long before the MD88, and reported it...

There may be some hell to pay if the "Braking Action Poor" report(s) never made it into the official condition reports to later aircraft...

Obviously s bunch of assumptions there. We'll see.
 
comanchepilot said:
not much of a tail wind. Departures were off runway 4 and landing 13. I would have done the other way around - but - then your landing traffic has to cross the active which slows the whole thing down . . .
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Runways 13 & 22 has the only approaches that weren't below minimums. Runway 22's tailwind was too high for landing, and it was being used for departures.

Rwy 31 doesn't have an ILS, just a LOC with mins of 593' and 1-3/4 SM.
Rwy 4 ILS requires 1SM or 5000 RVR.

13 was the only legal option for landing.

Mike I said:
Calling ATC was low on their list.
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Reporting the evacuation to ATC is on the evacuation checklist.

One of the radios is available on just battery power but it was likely not working or they would have informed the tower.
 
Studded snow tires work great on ice, for my car. Tremendous difference in stopping distance and steering.

Are studs available for any type of aircraft tire, maybe for the bush?
 
Henning said:
They are not "done", not on the value of what we know now. Even if they made some errors in performance, they could potentially be non predicatable errors, ie ones with a known result, because the results of an action while sliding across ice are not well predictable in real time.

As long as they did not fail procedurally, they will not suffer more than some ribbing in hotel bars I would think. The FAA will likely have to perform a 709 ride for them and that will close it. If you are going to tell pilots, "go fly", at these levels of weather, then a certain amount of this stuff will happen.

We have to wait for way more information to figure out, like how the plane got there.
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I've never heard a 121 carrier pilot being given a 709 ride for actions occurring while operating at work. There may be internal re-testing done, but I doubt a 709 ride comes out of this.
 
Was just noticing the slides didn't deploy in the various photos. Someone forget to cross check on departure?
 
Larry in TN said:
One of the radios is available on just battery power but it was likely not working or they would have informed the tower.
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Dammit - forgot all about the AC and DC emergency busses with the battery on. It's been too long!
 
denverpilot said:
A pilot for another carrier told me via FB that their crew that landed a while before the MD88 says the braking action was already so poor that they almost went off. They had already been turned and departed Runway 4 just before the MD88 slid off of 13. So in however long they were on the ground, sounds like it continued to get worse.
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Braking action reports are only as good as the pilot making them. Did your FB friend let local know BA was poor?
 
denverpilot said:
Was just noticing the slides didn't deploy in the various photos. Someone forget to cross check on departure?
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I heard that the tail slide didn't deploy due to the proximity of the ground.

I also watched a video of the evacuation through the tail. I'll be surpised if everyone got out with getting cut.
 
MarkZ said:
Braking action reports are only as good as the pilot making them. Did your FB friend let local know BA was poor?
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Re-read. He wasn't on the crew that almost slid off, he talked to them, and I clearly stated that IF they reported and it wasn't passed on, that's a problem.
 
denverpilot said:
Re-read. He wasn't on the crew that almost slid off, he talked to them, and I clearly stated that IF they reported and it wasn't passed on, that's a problem.
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I agree. Do we know what the last reported runway condition was?
 
denverpilot said:
I haven't been able to find one in anything official nor heard one in any of the LiveATC recordings.
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My point exactly. We DO know.

Local advised DAL1086 BA reported Good by an A319 and RJ, previous arrivals.

Obviously, if someone wasn't doing their job, that would be an issue.

But that is a big IF.
 
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