Delta pilot caught boozing the preflight

172andyou said:
I think it was that his lawyer said that 277 days since the incident, to mean that he hasn't had a drink since.
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He’s been in jail for 10 months, so what does 277 days dry prove? That he isn’t smart enough to smuggle booze into jail?
 
I'll bet it's easier to get narcotics than liquor when you're in lockup.
 
Hengelo said:
Did he just kiss his pension goodbye?
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Delta's pilot pension plan was terminated in bankruptcy and handed over to the PBGC 17 years ago. Whatever benefits he had vested by that time, up to the PBGC limits, will continue to be available.

Most US airlines terminated or froze their pensions in that time period. They were replaced with fixed-contribution plans (i.e. high 401k-type company contributions) in which the pilots were immediately vested.

Good chance a pilot would be fired for being unable to work for the term of his prison sentence.
 
OneCharlieTango said:
so I doubt he had any outward signs.
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You mean other than his breath reeked of alcohol?

More than a handful of smarta$$ pilots have been caught because they don’t know to keep their yaps shut at security or with a gate agent who dislikes arrogant pilots.
 
172andyou said:
"How many hoops does a guy need to jump through! I was only a .4! That's legal in the US! I just didn't know that other countries were more strict!"
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.04

Legal to do what??

Drive?
Or fly an airplane?
 
Half Fast said:
He’s been in jail for 10 months, so what does 277 days dry prove? That he isn’t smart enough to smuggle booze into jail?
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I was responding to a comment that implied he had broken his sobriety.
 
Hugh Despenser said:
.04

Legal to do what??

Drive?
Or fly an airplane?
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It was a joke, but the FAA limit is .04

It's a pretty old limit and, as has been pointed out in this thread, there are now countries that have that limit just for driving.
 
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OneCharlieTango said:
I'll bet it's easier to get narcotics than liquor when you're in lockup.
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There must be a con like me in every prison. I'm a guy who can get it for you. Cigarettes, a bag of reefer if that's your thing, a bottle of Jagermeister to celebrate your kid's high school graduation. Just about anything within reason. I'm a regular Sears and Roebuck.
 
Most people know that .04 is a violation, but what many people don’t realize is that under FAA Part 120, anyone flying under 135 or 121 is going to get sent home for anything between .02 and .04 and then have required return to work testing if they manage to stay employed.
 
By this thread, it seems most people aren’t aware that in Scotland, they have their own rules that are in force and nationality has no bearing on that.
 
Kenny Phillips said:
if you assume that he waited the eight hours and still blew that, he was likely "faced" as we used to say.
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Average male metabolizes .02 per hour, so 8 hours prior would put him at .20% BAC.

A quick search of effects at that level returns "Dazed and confused – Gross disorientation to time and place, increased nausea and vomiting, may need assistance to stand or walk, impervious to pain, blackout likely."

More likely he had a few on the way to the airport.
 
Well I'm glad he isn't going to be living in a cardboard box, feeding his kids catfood, or flying again. Seems like a win/win.

I don't know what the forcing factor is or could be for the FAA to improve medical screening. Damn shame the way it is now.
 
Unrelated sorta, but I worked for a company in rural alaska that had a pilot blow a .12 at 1 in the afternoon, after flying all morning. No one even knew he drank, much less that he was getting absolutely plastered at all hours. I don’t think it’s possible to be that drunk in the afternoon from the night before without dying of alcohol poisoning.
 
Ed Haywood said:
Average male metabolizes .02 per hour, so 8 hours prior would put him at .20% BAC.

A quick search of effects at that level returns "Dazed and confused – Gross disorientation to time and place, increased nausea and vomiting, may need assistance to stand or walk, impervious to pain, blackout likely."

More likely he had a few on the way to the airport.
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I'll submit a possibility:

What if he bought two bottles at duty-free and took a swig or two before going to the plane?
 
Half Fast said:
He’s been in jail for 10 months, so what does 277 days dry prove? That he isn’t smart enough to smuggle booze into jail?
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I don't think he's been in jail for 10 months. He was just sentenced to 10 months in jail.
 
Dave Theisen said:
Most people know that .04 is a violation, but what many people don’t realize is that under FAA Part 120, anyone flying under 135 or 121 is going to get sent home for anything between .02 and .04 and then have required return to work testing if they manage to stay employed.
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Most people think that being below the threshold is save haven for DUI as well. It's not, it's just the prima facie limit. You can be convicted at less.
 
I won't comment on the pilot, but I will on Jaeger.

1. "This vodka is horrible! It tastes like kerosene."
2. "Let's add sugar, and some coloring, and a bunch of spices!"
3. "It's still terrible. Ok, let's add girls with skirts to sell it to sad people."
 
Albany Tom said:
I won't comment on the pilot, but I will on Jaeger.

1. "This vodka is horrible! It tastes like kerosene."
2. "Let's add sugar, and some coloring, and a bunch of spices!"
3. "It's still terrible. Ok, let's add girls with skirts to sell it to sad people."
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You have to worry about anything that has to be cooled down to the point where you can't taste it to be palatable. It's right up there with the 28 degree Bud Light fridges some bars used to have.
 
Lived and flew in Germany. Their BAC limit is 0.00. They would do random (and presumably, not so random) breathalyzers going through security on the way to the airplane.

The company made sure all of us knew the limit, the procedures and the repercussions if someone was above the limit.

There have been several firings at my company due to alcohol related incidents recently (over the past few years). These stemmed from incidents on layovers, not due to trying to operate impaired. And these were only the ones the crew force has heard about because of their egregious nature. I'm sure there are more that have happened and we just haven't heard about them.

HIMS has also had some great stories for guys at the company who have been through the system and stuck with it. Our union HIMS reps have been through the program and volunteered to be the reps because of their success. They are very open about their stories and how they came through the other end for the better.
 
Never really understood the alcohol related incidents in aviation. One of our competitors balled up a helicopter under the influence awhile back. Makes no sense.

I generally drink on my week off but when I go back to 7 days of work, no booze. Even when I go to the sim, I get a couple at the hotel because they’re free but I show up to work in the AM clean.

Get your **** together. Don’t bust the 8 hr rule, definitely don’t show up drunk. In other words, act like an adult. If you can’t, get help.
 
Velocity173 said:
Get your **** together. Don’t bust the 8 hr rule, definitely don’t show up drunk. In other words, act like an adult. If you can’t, get help.
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If you go on a bender on the layover, eight hours may not be enough. You'll still be over 0.04 after 8 hours if you start at 0.16.
 
Velocity173 said:
Never really understood the alcohol related incidents in aviation. One of our competitors balled up a helicopter under the influence awhile back. Makes no sense.
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I've never understood it either. I'm willing to accept that some people get caught up in the moment and go too big the night before: it's a huge mistake, but just that - a mistake. Thing is, at a major airline there's absolutely no penalty for calling in sick. So it seems to me that someone needs to cross two independent gates of stupidity to get to a flight deck while over the limit. You've gotta be dumb enough to go big on a short timeline the night before, then be too dumb the next morning to recognize that you messed up, and follow it with an insistence that "I'm fine" while being fully aware that a phone call to scheduling would pull you off the trip and deadhead you home with no questions asked.

So I come to the conclusion that these folks have problems with alcohol that go beyond what someone like you and I can understand. Most of us are smart enough to not throw away a multi-million dollar career by getting stupid on an overnight, and any international pilot knows that Edinburgh is one of the most dangerous places in the world to push-to-test when it comes to this stuff. I hope this guy gets the help he needs, but damn - I'm sorry if I'm not *that* sympathetic about it.
 
kayoh190 said:
I've never understood it either. I'm willing to accept that some people get caught up in the moment and go too big the night before: it's a huge mistake, but just that - a mistake. Thing is, at a major airline there's absolutely no penalty for calling in sick. So it seems to me that someone needs to cross two independent gates of stupidity to get to a flight deck while over the limit. You've gotta be dumb enough to go big on a short timeline the night before, then be too dumb the next morning to recognize that you messed up, and follow it with an insistence that "I'm fine" while being fully aware that a phone call to scheduling would pull you off the trip and deadhead you home with no questions asked.

So I come to the conclusion that these folks have problems with alcohol that go beyond what someone like you and I can understand. Most of us are smart enough to not throw away a multi-million dollar career by getting stupid on an overnight, and any international pilot knows that Edinburgh is one of the most dangerous places in the world to push-to-test when it comes to this stuff. I hope this guy gets the help he needs, but damn - I'm sorry if I'm not *that* sympathetic about it.
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Yeah, addiction is a terrible thing. I read Mathew Perry’s autobiography a couple months ago. Really good read. He talks about the difference between an addict and one who drinks socially. He used to go out with friends (no pun) and they would have a few and call it a night. For him, he was just getting started. He would drink the entire night and then show up to work (Friends) the next day with a hangover. Said there was only a couple of years on the show he was actually sober.

The thing about him, at least he knew it was affecting work and he sought help. Spent a fortune (est 9 million) on addiction centers. Also, he didn’t have a job where someone’s safety was in his hands. I don’t have too much sympathy for these pilots who fail to treat their problem and then bring that problem to the cockpit.
 
flyingron said:
If you go on a bender on the layover, eight hours may not be enough. You'll still be over 0.04 after 8 hours if you start at 0.16.
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I thought it was 24 hours for airline pilots?
 
Dana said:
I thought it was 24 hours for airline pilots?
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It’s 8 hours at Delta. Personally, I like 12 but if I’m going to drink inside 12, I’ll switch to beer. If you’re pounding shots, even if you stop at 8, there’s probably a good chance you won’t be good.
 
Yeah we have 8 as well but had 12 in the Army. Not sure if the other services use 12 though. I stick with 12 myself and generally I’m not even close to that.
 
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It's 8 at FedEx, but I'm more of an 18-24 guys. I don't F with it at work. I'm not a big drinker anyhow, so it's not that much of a issue for me. There are nights the crew and I will tear it up a bit, but that's on a longer layover where I have at least a full day to recover.

Now, since the statute of limitations is probably over, I will say that back in my young Air Force days, there were times that I (and many others) probably broke the 12-hour rule. I'm not going to throw any current military guys under the bus, and I'm sure the culture has changed for the better these days, and military pilots adhere to the 12-hour rule. But, you get a bunch of 20-somethings in charge of other 20-somethings (and younger), put them in England (or Vegas, or Germany) at a pub, and things tend to get carried away. The next day's flight was always a "who's feeling the best? It's your leg then" kinda thing. I'm not proud of it, but it happened.

Definitely not willing to take that change at work, and anyone who does shouldn't be flying until they get help (or at least sober up/lose the hangover). Like someone said above, a sick call is so easy. Just use it.
 
Showing up hung over or still drunk and "sweating it out" during morning PT used to be a time honored Army and Marine tradition. Maybe the airlines should institute a formation run, followed by showers and breakfast, for aircrew departing Scotland?
 
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