Debate: 182 vs Super Viking

Did you have any complex time? How much retract time? How much dual did they require you to get in the Viking? A freshly minted PPL isn’t going to get a Viking insured without considerable expense

No retract or complex time at all when I bought the plane. Due to scheduling issues, I wasn’t able to pick the plane up myself, so I had Cody Williams, a well known Viking instructor, ferry the plane from TX to CA. He and I flew together for 6 hours the day after he arrived, and that was that. Did the complex endorsement that day.

One thing he showed me was how the ailerons retain their effectiveness in the stall. I had the yoke full back, power off, stall horn blaring, and was rocking the wings back and forth with the ailerons while mushing our way downward. That was fun.

I did have about 57 hours of recent Tailwheel experience, and I really believe that that helps sharpen ones landing skills. The Viking is an easy plane to fly; one just has to get used to planning further out. You can’t just pull the throttle back and expect the plane to immediately slow down like a Cessna does. With that super slick, no-rivets wing, the plane doesn’t have a lot of drag, and it takes it a while to slow down to landing gear operating speed. Once the gear is down, it still takes a bit of time to slow down to the white arc, but once there, with the gear down and the barn door flaps down at the full 45 degrees, the plane can come down at a very steep angle. Short field operations are pretty easy. I’ve been able to land on the threshold of 30L at KSJC and make the first turnoff onto Delta. Don’t do that much, because I don’t want to kill my brakes, but it is doable.

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I’ve also taken off on Runway 12R at Delta. With the overrun area, there’s plenty of runway, and it saves the long taxi time. Gotta love San Jose’s tower crew.







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No retract or complex time at all when I bought the plane. Due to scheduling issues, I wasn’t able to pick the plane up myself, so I had Cody Williams, a well known Viking instructor, ferry the plane from TX to CA. He and I flew together for 6 hours the day after he arrived, and that was that. Did the complex endorsement that day.

One thing he showed me was how the ailerons retain their effectiveness in the stall. I had the yoke full back, power off, stall horn blaring, and was rocking the wings back and forth with the ailerons while mushing our way downward. That was fun.

I did have about 57 hours of recent Tailwheel experience, and I really believe that that helps sharpen ones landing skills. The Viking is an easy plane to fly; one just has to get used to planning further out. You can’t just pull the throttle back and expect the plane to immediately slow down like a Cessna does. With that super slick, no-rivets wing, the plane doesn’t have a lot of drag, and it takes it a while to slow down to landing gear operating speed. Once the gear is down, it still takes a bit of time to slow down to the white arc, but once there, with the gear down and the barn door flaps down at the full 45 degrees, the plane can come down at a very steep angle. Short field operations are pretty easy. I’ve been able to land on the threshold of 30L at KSJC and make the first turnoff onto Delta. Don’t do that much, because I don’t want to kill my brakes, but it is doable.

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I'm surprised you got insured in a Viking with a total of 6 hours complex and retract and Viking time. What company?
 
Duster has a good evaluation there.
I forgot to mention my 45K hull costs <$1K/yr.

Yes. it all depends on your mission, and what you want. Both planes are good. I strongly considered a Cessna 185 for my first plane, but that didn’t work out. I’m not arguing against the 182 for the OP, but I do want to correct some of the missinformation about the Viking that is being put out there.

Less than $1K for a hull value if $45K sounds right to me. I’m using a hull value of $125K, and my rate is less than $2K.


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I'm surprised you got insured in a Viking with a total of 6 hours complex and retract and Viking time. What company?

I have used Bill White Insurance (bwifly.com) as my broker. I believe the company they found for me that first year was USSIC. Bill White has found several different companies for me over the years as they shop around for the best rates. My current insurance is with Endurance Assurance Corporation.


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it’s always a tough decision balancing speed, useful load and of course cost. Insurance and mx can throw a wrench in the plans as I’m hearing. I want a 10 year plane, not something I’ll want out of in a couple years cause it’s too slow and not truly XC worthy. That’s what makes Viking and Mooney’s enticing. The Mooney’s useful los is a bit low though.
 
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Having read through tons of posts on here, it’s always a tough decision balancing speed, useful load and of course cost. Insurance and mx can throw a wrench in the plans as I’m hearing. I want a 10 year plane, not something I’ll want out of in a couple years cause it’s too slow and not truly XC worthy. That’s what makes Viking and Mooney’s enticing. The Mooney’s useful los is a bit low though.

A word about my mx costs. Typical annuals are in the $3K range. Most of that is labor. At my just completed last annual, the total parts bill was $91.00 The rest was time and labor. In the six years I’ve had the plane, I’ve had some avionics and autopilot issues, replaced a cylinder due to a bad exhaust valve, and had to replace a broken plastic hydraulic reservoir. All these are pretty normal for a 29 year old plane. There have been ZERO issues with the wood structure or with the tube and fabric.

I’m also 6’2”, and I’m a pretty hefty guy. The cockpit is tight, but I’m comfortable in it. When it’s just my wife and I, she tends to sit in the back so she can commune with her computer (i.e. work), and I can spread out in the front. Works well for us on those long trips. It’s also doable for her to be in front with our 19yo son in back for the 2-3 hour trips.

I flew solo from CA to TN a few years ago. Made it back to CA in one day of 15 hours flying. I was quite comfortable in front by myself for that time. Due to winds, I had to make three fuel stops: Oklahoma, Santa Fe, and Southern California. On the way to TN, it took 12 hours of flying with only two stops: Prescott, AZ and Oklahoma City.

The guy who sold it to me would regularly fly with his wife and two pre-teen daughters from Georgetown, TX to Florida to go to Disney World. The Viking is a great cross country machine, and it’s also fun for the hundred dollar hamburger runs.
 
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I bought a Super Viking for my first plane in May of 2012. I had 256 hours total at the time, with only 150 of those hours being recent (I had accumulated 100ish hours 23 years prior before taking long hiatus from flying). Six years later, I have over 1000 hours in the log book with over 700 of those in my Viking. Our typical mission when we first bought it was to fly two good sized adults, a teenager, a hefty hockey bag full of hockey gear, hockey sticks in the ski tube, and enough luggage for three people from San Jose California to places in Southern California, Phoenix, or Vancouver BC.

I think it’s a great first plane. Fast, very maneuverable, capable of carrying a good load a good distance, and unique on the ramp. It’s a great instrumene plane and really fun to fly.

It is cozy inside.

My comments really weren’t intended to be about actually flying the plane. I’ve given guys primary training in stuff that is more of a handful than a Viking with good success so I don’t see any problem there.

As a pilot, mechanic, and aircraft owner myself with experience working on all the planes being discussed in this thread, I personally would not advocate venturing into owning an airplane with the first try being a Viking unless you want to get an education on ownership real fast. Something more common and simpler like a 182 would be a better place to start. I’m not saying the Viking is a bad airplane, just saying that a wood and fabric airplane that is no longer in production might not be the easiest place to start when you don’t know anything about owning an airplane or how to find a good one. At least the engine and prop are normal.

My bet is that the Viking is being discussed mainly because the OP sees how cheap they are to buy, compared to some “lesser” airplanes.
 
My comments really weren’t intended to be about actually flying the plane. I’ve given guys primary training in stuff that is more of a handful than a Viking with good success so I don’t see any problem there.

As a pilot, mechanic, and aircraft owner myself with experience working on all the planes being discussed in this thread, I personally would not advocate venturing into owning an airplane with the first try being a Viking unless you want to get an education on ownership real fast. Something more common and simpler like a 182 would be a better place to start. I’m not saying the Viking is a bad airplane, just saying that a wood and fabric airplane that is no longer in production might not be the easiest place to start when you don’t know anything about owning an airplane or how to find a good one. At least the engine and prop are normal.

My bet is that the Viking is being discussed mainly because the OP sees how cheap they are to buy, compared to some “lesser” airplanes.

Well, as I said, my first venture into airplane ownership was with my Viking, and I was a low time pilot at the time, so I disagree with your thesis. It’s been a pretty painless experience overall. I do recommend getting a good prebuy from one of the big three Bellanca experts, but assuming they don’t find any issues, you’re probably in good shape. In my 6 years of ownership, I’ve had ZERO issues related to the wood or fabric. After all, it used to be that almost all airplanes were built this way.

All of the issues I have had (autopilot repair, minor avionics issues, cylinder replacement, etc.) had nothing to do with the airframe construction. Any used airplane 20+ years old is subject to those sorts of issues. Get a good prebuy, and it’ll be fine. Nothing to be scared about the wood and fabric.

Keep it hangared and flown regularly, and a Viking will give years of great flights. Definitely join the Viking pilots forum and ask questions there. There’s a wealth of experience on that forum, and chances are good that someone there has some info on any Viking which is for sale.


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Well, as I said, my first venture into airplane ownership was with my Viking, so I guess I disagree with your thesis. It’s been a pretty painless experience overall. I do recommend getting a good prebuy from one of the big three Bellanca experts, but assuming they don’t find any issues, you’re probably in good shape. In my 6 years of ownership, I’ve had ZERO issues related to the wood or fabric. After all, it used to be that almost all airplanes were built this way.

Keep it hangared and flown regularly, and a Viking will give years of great flights. Definitely join the Viking pilots forum and ask questions there. There’s a wealth of experience on that forum, and chances are good that someone there has some info on any Viking which is for sale.


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I never said it couldn’t be done. My observation has been that something like this is too much for many to handle, and they get burned. Problem #1 is often falling in love with the plane and buying it despite the protests by knowledgeable people, and it doesn’t get better after the purchase.

Sounds like you found a decent airplane to buy.
 
Problem #1 is often falling in love with the plane and buying it despite the protests by knowledgeable people, and it doesn’t get better after the purchase.

Sounds like you found a decent airplane to buy.

Certainly agree with this. It applies to any airplane purchase. When I first started my search, I found an absolutely gorgeous 1976 Cessna 185. Beautiful. 10 year old pristine paint job, hangared, well equipped, the works. I agreed on a good price with the seller, got a good insurance quote, and had all the financing arrangements set up. Just needed to go through the minor formality of the prebuy, and that baby was mine! I barely even heard the words of my instrument instructor (he owns 4 planes including an AT-6) when he suggested to me that I shouldn’t fall in love with it yet.

Then the reality of the prebuy hit. Lots of internal corrosion, broken ribs in the stabilizer, missing rivets, etc. That beautiful 10 year old paint job? Evidently they didn’t clean the stripper from the airframe when they had removed the old paint, and the stripper had gotten inside the airframe and had been working its corrosive magic for 10 years. The outside was incredible; the inside was a mess.

The point is that one should never fall in love with a plane until after a thorough prebuy. Assuming a good prebuy inspection by a well qualified and knowlegable mechanic, it really doesn’t matter if the plane is made from plastic, recycled coke cans, or spruce, 4130 tubing and fabric. A good Viking will be as trouble free to a new owner as a good 182. Conversely, a bad 182 will cause just a many headaches, regrets, and sleepless nights as a bad Viking. It’s all in the prebuy. The type of construction doesn’t really enter into the equation.

The one point, however, is that because many people don’t know much about wood airplanes, they get scared off. This means that it is possible to get a great performing and well maintained airplane for a much lower price than the more common types. I will concede that there are probably more acceptable 182’s out there than Vikings, but that is just because they built more 182s than Vikings. There are also probably more bad 182’s out there than bad Vikings for the same reason.



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Certainly agree with this. It applies to any airplane purchase. When I first started my search, I found an absolutely gorgeous 1976 Cessna 185. Beautiful. 10 year old pristine paint job, hangared, well equipped, the works. I agreed on a good price with the seller, got a good insurance quote, and had all the financing arrangements set up. Just needed to go through the minor formality of the prebuy, and that baby was mine! I barely even heard the words of my instrument instructor (he owns 4 planes including an AT-6) when he suggested to me that I shouldn’t fall in love with it yet.

Then the reality of the prebuy hit. Lots of internal corrosion, broken ribs in the stabilizer, missing rivets, etc. That beautiful 10 year old paint job? Evidently they didn’t clean the stripper from the airframe when they had removed the old paint, and the stripper had gotten inside the airframe and had been working its corrosive magic for 10 years. The outside was incredible; the inside was a mess.

The point is that one should never fall in love with a plane until after a thorough prebuy. Assuming a good prebuy inspection by a well qualified and knowlegable mechanic, it really doesn’t matter if the plane is made from plastic, recycled coke cans, or spruce, 4130 tubing and fabric. A good Viking will be as trouble free to a new owner as a good 182. Conversely, a bad 182 will cause just a many headaches, regrets, and sleepless nights as a bad Viking. It’s all in the prebuy. The type of construction doesn’t really enter into the equation.

The one point, however, is that because many people don’t know much about wood airplanes, they get scared off. This means that it is possible to get a great performing and well maintained airplane for a much lower price than the more common types. I will concede that there are probably more acceptable 182’s out there than Vikings, but that is just because they built more 182s than Vikings. There are also probably more bad 182’s out there than bad Vikings for the same reason.

I agree with everything you wrote, but I’d emphasize one point. The wood on a Viking wouldn’t concern me much, but the fabric would. This is one area that WILL cost you more to take care of than a 182, and unless the plane has been recovered recently it will become a problem sooner rather than later.

Most of my Viking maintenance work has been making fabric repairs. These planes are all old now and someone will eventually have to recover them. That will be an expensive bill when the time comes although it can be less painful if the owner can do it themselves.

The last fabric job I did (not a Viking btw) cost the owner around $35k by the time I got done fixing all the problems that were uncovered, plus the covering materials and labor. Not cheap.
 
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I agree with everything you wrote, but I’d emphasize one point. The wood on a Viking wouldn’t concern me much, but the fabric would. This is one area that WILL cost you more to take care of than a 182, and unless the plane has been recovered recently it will become a problem sooner rather than later.

Most of my Viking maintenance work has been making fabric repairs. These planes are all old now and someone will eventually have to recover them. That will be an expensive bill when the time comes although it can be less painful if the owner can do it themselves.

The last fabric job I did (not a Viking btw) cost the owner around $35k by the time I got done fixing all the problems that were uncovered, plus the covering materials and labor. Not cheap.

Well, the fabric on my airplane is 29 years old, and it is still in great shape. I know of many Vikings built in the 70’s with original fabric, and they are also in great shape. Of course, one should hangar a fabric plane, but airplanes in general benefit from being hangared. The real key to a long life is to fly them often. I’m no more concerned about the fabric on my plane than I would be with corrosion on an aluminum plane; the key to both is proper care. And if the plane is hangared, the proper care isn’t onerous at all. No different really from an aluminium plane.

Remember that many of the most fun airplanes being built today, Carbon Cubs, Wacos, Pitts, Great Lakes, Citabrias, Champs, Decathlons, Maules, etc. all have fabric covering.

A story also about fabric. In 1966, my father tried his hand at being a Bellanca dealer. He bought and sold one at a loss and gave that up; he was a much better engineer than salesman. As part of the sales kit from the factory, however, was an interesting little demonstration kit. It was a box with one opening covered in doped aircraft fabric and the other side covered in a piece of aluminum aircraft skin. There was also a golf ball sized ball bearing. The demo involved dropping or throwing the ball bearing at both sides. No damage at all to the fabric side, the ball bearing just bounced, but the aluminum side was covered in dents. When I was in my 30’s, we found that 30+ year old demo box which had been stored in his attic for decades, and he demo’d it for me. The ball bearing still bounced high off the fabric, and still dented the Aluminum. Fabric is pretty tough stuff.

There’s a, possibly apocryphal, story about someone making fun of a Viking owner about his fabric plane. The viking owner supposedly took a bowling ball and bounced it off the side of his plane and then offered to do the same to his tormentor’s Aluminum plane. Not sure the story is true, but I can certainly appreciate it.


And, by the way, the estimate from the mechanic who did the prebuy on that Cessna 185 to fix all of the structural issues including reskinning the stabilizer after fixing the broken ribs inside and cleaning out the corrosion and making sheet metal repairs? $40K. Aluminum planes have their issues also...



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Well, the fabric on my airplane is 29 years old, and it is still in great shape. I know of many Vikings built in the 70’s with original fabric, and they are also in great shape. Of course, one should hangar a fabric plane, but airplanes in general benefit from being hangared. The real key to a long life is to fly them often. I’m no more concerned about the fabric on my plane than I would be with corrosion on an aluminum plane; the key to both is proper care. And if the plane is hangared, the proper care isn’t onerous at all. No different really from an aluminium plane.

Remember that many of the most fun airplanes being built today, Carbon Cubs, Wacos, Pitts, Great Lakes, Citabrias, Champs, Decathlons, Maules, etc. all have fabric covering.

A story also about fabric. In 1966, my father tried his hand at being a Bellanca dealer. He bought and sold one at a loss and gave that up; he was a much better engineer than salesman. As part of the sales kit from the factory, however, was an interesting little demonstration kit. It was a box with one opening covered in doped aircraft fabric and the other side covered in a piece of aluminum aircraft skin. There was also a golf ball sized ball bearing. The demo involved dropping or throwing the ball bearing at both sides. No damage at all to the fabric side, the ball bearing just bounced, but the aluminum side was covered in dents. When I was in my 30’s, we found that 30+ year old demo box which had been stored in his attic for decades, and he demo’d it for me. The ball bearing still bounced high off the fabric, and still dented the Aluminum. Fabric is pretty tough stuff.

There’s a, possibly apocryphal, story about someone making fun of a Viking owner about his fabric plane. The viking owner supposedly took a bowling ball and bounced it off the side of his plane and then offered to do the same to his tormentor’s Aluminum plane. Not sure the story is true, but I can certainly appreciate it.

The fabric itself is rarely the problem when it comes to the synthetic coverings. The real problem seems to be the paint that is used on it. The older the paint is, the more brittle it seems to be, and some paint systems are worse than others. If a person is ok with a bunch of cracks in their paint or patches you can keep an old cover job going for a long time, although it won’t be pretty. The big deal is that the fabric needs some protective coating on it so it remains in good shape.

The flexibility of fabric is nice, but it has its limitations too. My aforementioned fabric job (ironically, it was on a different type of Bellanca) was due to the airplane sitting outside during a hail storm (similar to your ball bearing sales kit). Paint was missing and what remained was so badly broken up it wasn’t worth even considering trying to fix.

Long story short, there is no best solution and all I see is fabric airplanes costing more than metal to properly maintain in the long run. Especially with most fabric jobs being 30+ years old these days.
 
I've always had a thing for the Viking. I ended up with a Comanche 250 but was also looking at Vikings as an options. I was not swayed with what people think about the wood wing. They are incredibly strong. Just get a pre-buy! If I had to choose between a Viking or a 182, I'd choose a Viking!! They are very unique and I love the ski tube. I wish my Comanche had one.
 
Here are a few numbers for comparison purposes. I am a 150 hr PPL and currently own a PA28-180. I have a complex endorsement and 47 hours in a Beech Sierra. Currently my insurance runs about $700 for 45K hull value. I wasn't really looking but recently ran across a very nice Debonaire that could be bought right. I asked for an insurance quote from my current broker and they came back with almost $3,000 for 70K hull value. They said if I got an instrument rating and 500 hours total time it would go down to $2,000. A the current rate that i fly I could get to 500 hrs in about 5 years. Guess I'll stick with the Cherokee

That rate is high. I just got a student pilot insured in a Mooney 231 (turbo, complex and HP) with a $150k hull value for $3k. He did not have a complex nor high performance endorsement at the time.
 
I owned a Super Viking for 5 years quite a while ago. Got my instrument, commercial, CFI and CFII in that airplane. Good instrument airplane. Flew it from the L48 to Alaska and back 3 times. As others have said, the control feel is excellent, the cabin is snug. I had an expensive issue about the 3rd yr of ownership, a fuel cell developed a leak inside the wood wing (airplane had about 1600 tt ). But, random mx problems happen to all aircraft. I was a little disappointed in speed vs. fuel flow with the one I had. I traded it for a C185 and was amazed at the Cessna's lifting ability, cabin size and speed on the same HP/fuel flow. The Viking was faster than the 185, but not by that much. Annuals were considerably cheaper with the fixed gear.
 
They are very unique and I love the ski tube. I wish my Comanche had one.

One came up for sale on the Delphi forum a couple of months back and someone else posted the plans, STC, 337, or something related to it. Might be worth a look.
 
The Viking has a beautiful harmonious control "feel," that none of the other above airplanes have.

182’s are great, but they fly more like an SUV or family sedan. The Viking is a Ferrari.

^^^ What they said ^^^

Some of the things that have been mentioned earlier about astronomical Viking insurance premiums and treacherous crosswind handling characteristics are just nonsense. Having said that, though, there is no doubt that the Viking is a more complex airplane than the 182. To be operated safely and efficiently, it will in fact demand a higher level of care and airmanship than will the simpler airplane.

Member "jimhorner" has done an outstanding job of debunking some of the common myths about the Viking. We Viking owners are enthusiastic about our planes, but still recognize that others may have mission requirements -- cabin volume, boarding/unboarding entry ease, simpler systems, etc. -- that outweigh the performance, handling qualities, and ramp appeal of a Viking.

No car -- or airplane -- is ideal for every owner. Many (most?) people are going to be perfectly happy driving SUV's, family sedans, and C-182's. A few pilots, though, will never be satisfied unless they fly a Viking.
 
The super Viking is a really neat aircraft with a following. I do agree that it wouldn’t be the best choice for first time ownership. Also, if I were to buy one under any circumstances I would want to see very detailed history as to storage and damage. There are just too many metal airplane choices to have to settle on an aged wood aircraft. If I were convinced that it had no damage and always stored in a dry climate I might be interested. One more thing. A hangar neighbor had one and loved it. He said though in the event of power loss, it had the glide ratio of a washing machine.

My $0.02,
 
...Also, if I were to buy one under any circumstances I would want to see very detailed history as to storage and damage. There are just too many metal airplane choices to have to settle on an aged wood aircraft...

My $0.02,

I see no difference in this regard as to how I would approach a metal airplane. Aged metal airframes can have lots of problems of their own.
 
The difference between a Viking and a Skyhawk is you’ll hear Viking owners talk about great airplanes they are. Pilots who don’t fly Skylanes (like yours truly) will still talk about what great airplanes they are. Speaks volumes to me, but YMMV.
 
a wood structure is a different ball game! Make sure the people involved are knowledgeable of the sport. History is important.
 
The super Viking is a really neat aircraft with a following. I do agree that it wouldn’t be the best choice for first time ownership. Also, if I were to buy one under any circumstances I would want to see very detailed history as to storage and damage. There are just too many metal airplane choices to have to settle on an aged wood aircraft. If I were convinced that it had no damage and always stored in a dry climate I might be interested. One more thing. A hangar neighbor had one and loved it. He said though in the event of power loss, it had the glide ratio of a washing machine.

My $0.02,

Why not a good choice for first time ownership? I own a Super Viking, and it was my first plane. I was a relatively low time Private pilot when I purchased it. I have had ZERO issues with the plane related to the wood, fabric, or paint. Yes, there are lots of metal airplanes out there. Many of them are aged. Many of them have corrosion issues. Wood is not something to be scared of. With a good prebuy, there’s absolutely no issues with buying a wood plane. You do know, don’t you, that when the wings of a Viking were made, the _entire_ wing structure was dipped into a preservative?

If you leave a wood/aluminum airplane out in the elements without flying it regularly and properly protected, it will get wet, and there is a possibility that the wood/aluminum will rot/corrode. See what I did there? Both types of planes are subject to deterioration, just of different types. When buying any plane, a thorough prebuy by a qualified mechanic who knows the type is a MUST. Assuming the prebuy is good, either type of plane, metal or wood will give the new owner many years of successful ownership. Of course, any used plane will also give the owner lots of experiences with avionics issues, engine issues, etc., but there is no reason to stay away from an airplane just because it is made from wood.

And regarding your washing machine glide ratio, think about this a bit before posting something, heard from a friend, that is such utter nonsense. The plane has quite low drag. It’s a retract for goodness sake. No wheels hanging out until just before landing, and the wings are super slick without all those rivets a metal plane has. If anything, one would expect its glide ratio to be better than something like a 182 which has the gear hanging down all the time, those big ole wing struts with lots of interference drag, and lots of rivets on the plane to increase the drag. And, that is, in fact, true. Below is the graph from the POH. The Super Viking book glide ratio is a little better than 10:1. An AOPA article ( https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2011/february/01/proficient-pilot gives the glide ratio of a 182 as 9.3:1. Both are close enough that in the real world, piloting technique will be a bigger factor.

ac4a8e5c5594a3e3b4b84b58c029c7cc.jpg


To try to be crystal clear here. I’m not saying that the 182 is a bad plane at all. I’ve got a fair number of hours in one, and it performed its mission well for me. It may be the perfect plane for the OP. What I am trying to do is correct all of the negative, uninformed, miss-information being put out out there about the Viking by people who really don’t have the facts. Vikings aren’t for everyone. But if someone is interested in a Viking, they shouldn’t be put off by the fact that Vikings are not built from Aluminium. Get a prebuy, on any potential purchase, and go from there.





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The difference between a Viking and a Skyhawk is you’ll hear Viking owners talk about great airplanes they are. Pilots who don’t fly Skylanes (like yours truly) will still talk about what great airplanes they are. Speaks volumes to me, but YMMV.

Not quite sure what point you are making here is. You’ve got Vikings, Skylanes (182s), and Skyhawks (172s) all in here. However, let me see if I can try to address what I think you are saying. Appologies in advance if my interpretation isn’t what you are saying.

I think that you are saying that pilots who haven’t flown a Skyhawk(172) or a Skylane(182) neverthless still say that they are great airplanes, and that Viking pilots are the only ones who talk about how Vikings are great. And you conclude from this that there must be something wrong with either Vikings or Viking pilots or both? Again, my sincere appologies if that isn’t the point you are making. I may be reading your post completely wrong.

For the record. I think Skyhawks and Skylanes are very fine aircraft. My dad taught me to fly in his 1962 Cessna 172D, the very first airframe with the rear window. I have many fond memories in that plane. I started my instrument training in 172’s. A 172 is a fine plane. They are common, used ones are fairly cheap, most mechanics are familar with them, they are great for training students, and they have a host of other redeeming qualities. They do have some downsides, however, when compared to some other types such as Bonanzas, Mooneys, 182’s, and, yes, Vikings. A 172 is pretty slow. (I cruise at what is the 172’s redline speed). They also can’t carry a whole lot of payload compared to other types.

I also have time in Skylanes. They are also great planes for their mission. Faster and more powerful than a 172 with more payload. Perhaps not as useful as a trainer, but a great first plane for a Private Pilot who wants to use the plane for travel either alone or with the family. Able to handle higher density altittude airfields. Nothing wrong with a 182. It is a bit pedestrian in its handling, and it tends to be nose heavy, but that’s okay.

I disagree with your implied assertion (again, if that is what you were implying) that the only pilots who have good things to say about Vikings are Viking pilots. Look, the Viking is not nearly as common as a 172 or a 182. Many people haven’t been exposed to one. However, those who have, either by getting a chance to fly one, or by talking to people who have, are almost always positive about them. In a similar fashion, there aren’t that many Mooney or Bonanza drivers out there when compared to the number of people who fly 172/182s. That fact doesn’t make Mooneys or Bonanzas bad planes. It just means that there are a lot fewer pilots who have direct experience with those planes when compared to the pilot population who has direct experience with 172s and 182s. Most folks who do fly a Mooney or who know someone who does, are positive about the plane’s speed, efficiency, and other qualities. Like Viking pilots, they are also pretty honest about the issues with the somewhat cramped cockpit.

I could go on. Bottom line, I think maybe the reason not much good is heard about Vikings is that the Viking fleet is relatively small. That, combined with the fact that the plane is not constructed in the same way and from similar materials as to what the vast majority of pilots are used to and with the tendency for many people to want to give an opinion, any opinion, uninformed or not, tends to give the Viking a bad rap.

Eek, wood? That little airplane is made from wood? And covered in cloth? Doncha know wood rots!? And cloth? Heck fire, my tee shirt’s made outta cloth, and them things don’ last but a few years. You stay way from those Vikings, thay’ll just fall apart on ya any day now... Give me a nice strong airplane made out metal. Them things will last forever.

Balderdash. A well cared for plane, metal or wood, fabric or metal skinned, will last a long, long time. A poorly cared for airplane, metal or wood, will suffer an early demise.

My Viking is 29 years old, has a wood wing, fabric covered fuselage, flies at 200mph, is incredibly responsive and fun to fly, and looks like it just came from the factory recently. It’s in great shape, and I expect to get many, many more years of service from it.

There’s nothing wrong with the 182, or the Bonanza, or the Mooney, or the Cirius, or the Viking, or the 172, or the Cherokee, or ... The key for the OP is to find a plane which meets his mission, is affordable to him, and has been well maintained as determined by a good prebuy.









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I am nominating Jim as our official Bellanca ambassador. His thoughful and diligent response to all of the posts is a tribute to the passion we Bellanca owners (aka "lovers") have about our airplanes. I bought my first Bellanca in 1975 as a very low time pilot. 40+ years later I still consider the flying characteristics superior to any other single engine aircraft out there. They don't serve every mission, but they are a strong, worthy aircraft, unappreciated by many which is ok with me.
 
Why not a good choice for first time ownership? I own a Super Viking, and it was my first plane. I was a relatively low time Private pilot when I purchased it. I have had ZERO issues with the plane related to the wood, fabric, or paint. Yes, there are lots of metal airplanes out there. Many of them are aged. Many of them have corrosion issues. Wood is not something to be scared of. With a good prebuy, there’s absolutely no issues with buying a wood plane. You do know, don’t you, that when the wings of a Viking were made, the _entire_ wing structure was dipped into a preservative?

If you leave a wood/aluminum airplane out in the elements without flying it regularly and properly protected, it will get wet, and there is a possibility that the wood/aluminum will rot/corrode. See what I did there? Both types of planes are subject to deterioration, just of different types. When buying any plane, a thorough prebuy by a qualified mechanic who knows the type is a MUST. Assuming the prebuy is good, either type of plane, metal or wood will give the new owner many years of successful ownership. Of course, any used plane will also give the owner lots of experiences with avionics issues, engine issues, etc., but there is no reason to stay away from an airplane just because it is made from wood.

And regarding your washing machine glide ratio, think about this a bit before posting something, heard from a friend, that is such utter nonsense. The plane has quite low drag. It’s a retract for goodness sake. No wheels hanging out until just before landing, and the wings are super slick without all those rivets a metal plane has. If anything, one would expect its glide ratio to be better than something like a 182 which has the gear hanging down all the time, those big ole wing struts with lots of interference drag, and lots of rivets on the plane to increase the drag. And, that is, in fact, true. Below is the graph from the POH. The Super Viking book glide ratio is a little better than 10:1. An AOPA article ( https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2011/february/01/proficient-pilot gives the glide ratio of a 182 as 9.3:1. Both are close enough that in the real world, piloting technique will be a bigger factor.

ac4a8e5c5594a3e3b4b84b58c029c7cc.jpg


To try to be crystal clear here. I’m not saying that the 182 is a bad plane at all. I’ve got a fair number of hours in one, and it performed its mission well for me. It may be the perfect plane for the OP. What I am trying to do is correct all of the negative, uninformed, miss-information being put out out there about the Viking by people who really don’t have the facts. Vikings aren’t for everyone. But if someone is interested in a Viking, they shouldn’t be put off by the fact that Vikings are not built from Aluminium. Get a prebuy, on any potential purchase, and go from there.





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As. To the glides like a washing machine comment, the issue is less about the glide ratio, as stated it is actually pretty similar to a 182, the difference is it occurs at 102mph (80mph for 182). Also the manual states to pull the prop back to low RPM in the event of a power failure. With the prop forward it is probably more like 5:1 glide ratio. Either way it will take significantly less time to get to the ground in a Viking that it will in the 182, even if it glides about the same distance.

Brian
 
I have only a few hours in each; personally, I really like the Viking.

However -- it's smaller inside; if a roomy cabin matters, the 182 wins there. Also, you'll want to put the Viking in a hangar; the fabric surfaces won't like being in the sun all the time (I'm in Tucson; might be less a factor where you are). I had a chance to buy a Viking and I passed because the cabin size wouldn't have worked for the family, but I kinda wish I had gone for it.

But the Viking is just cool. :)
 
[...] The Skylane will power out of just about anything, including unimproved strips. It is the only aircraft I know of in which you can fill the seats and the tanks and be good to go.

My Cherokee-235 is also good with full seats and tanks both. One of the reasons I bought it instead of the Viking (and also I'm 6'4") --- it just fit the mission better all around. Also, I was a pretty new pilot then, and the Cherokee seemed a more forgiving choice for someone still pretty green. But the Viking was really fun. :)
 
I've looked into those but they seem a bit pricey though..

Compared to a 182? Not much difference, especially if you go with earlier models. Plus, they are faster, burn the same or less gas, and have the same load hauling ability. Plus, the option of doing a club cabin like a Bo.
 
I'll pile on with the Viking guys. I'm in a Viking partnership with 4 others. I absolutely love the airplane. It flies great, has a great useful load (~1100lbs), carries plenty of gas (79 gallons), makes a respectable speed (~160ktas, depending on weight, temp, etc) on 14.5gph LOP, and has been pretty easy to maintain (no worse than a metal airplane). The idea that it's not a good "first" airplane is simply baseless. Our Viking is no more difficult to maintain than an all-metal airplane; in some respects it's easier (fewer corrosion issues to worry about, for one).

On the insurance front, when my partnership bought the airplane 3.5 years ago, a couple of the partners were low-ish time with somewhat low retract time. Insurance premiums, of course, are based on the lowest time guy. Our lowest time guy had about 300 total, under 10 high performance and no retract time. The premium was $1700 for the year, with 5 named pilots. The low time guy had to get 10 hours of instruction in the plane and an IPC. That's it. So the idea that insurance is "expensive" or "hard to get" is also based on misinformation.

The main "downside" to the Super Viking is the cabin and baggage space. It's a great 2 adult airplane, a serviceable 3 adult airplane, and a somewhat uncomfortable 4 adult airplane. Baggage space on the early models is also somewhat small because the battery is under the baggage compartment floor, which raises the floor up a decent amount. Recently, we put 4 adult men in the airplane and flew it from Kansas City to northern Florida; I don't necessarily need to do that again. But with just 2 adults and bags, it's a great long-distance airplane; my wife and I have flown ours from KC to Florida several times. I'll admit that I also own a Twin Bonanza

The 182 is also a great airplane, but it's slower and doesn't fly nearly as nice. Nothing wrong with them at all, there's a reason they're super popular. But I prefer to go as fast as I can afford.
 
If I needed 160kts and comfort for 4 adults, it's probably a Commander 114 or PA24. If you need 2 adults and 160kts, the Mooney fits the bill. Three adults/160kts is probably where the SViking fits in. The 182 probably doesn't fit in unless you need 4 adults/heavy hauling (over 1,100 useful) but are okay with 140kts or less without going turbo; or need back country capability.

The Bo/207/210/PA32-series get thrown in once additional speed, pax, or baggage are needed.
 
If I needed 160kts and comfort for 4 adults, it's probably a Commander 114 or PA24. If you need 2 adults and 160kts, the Mooney fits the bill. Three adults/160kts is probably where the SViking fits in. The 182 probably doesn't fit in unless you need 4 adults/heavy hauling (over 1,100 useful) but are okay with 140kts or less without going turbo; or need back country capability.

The Bo/207/210/PA32-series get thrown in once additional speed, pax, or baggage are needed.

Mooney Js have plenty of useful load for 3 Adults .
 
One came up for sale on the Delphi forum a couple of months back and someone else posted the plans, STC, 337, or something related to it. Might be worth a look.

Delphi as in the 90s dial up thing?!
 
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