Dad advice needed. Question 1

Cavorter said:
Why? Because this is an aviation forum and the vast majority of those giving their "expert" opinion (including you) are not really qualified. OP is free to do whatever he wants. I still maintain my opinion that I am concerned for him and his kids if this is his goto place for advice of this nature.
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I've found PoA to be one of the best sources of information on a variety of topics from parenting to boats and semi trucks. We have people from all walks of life and all different backgrounds from all over the world with an incredible variety of experiences. I've rarely found people to claim themselves "experts" on these topics, but rather share their experiences, opinions, and knowledge. When deciding a course of action, getting a multitude of opinions can help you downselect the correct one.

Of course, asking my mother what to do can have its benefits. It will tell me what I should NOT do as a parent.
 
Cavorter said:
Why? Because this is an aviation forum and the vast majority of those giving their "expert" opinion (including you) are not really qualified. OP is free to do whatever he wants. I still maintain my opinion that I am concerned for him and his kids if this is his goto place for advice of this nature.
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It's as good of a place as any. Anything useful to add, or just here to show everyone the giant stick up your ass?


calberto said:
  1. Ignore the bullies completely. Bullies feed off of reactions. If your kid stays stoic avoiding any reaction it depletes all of the fun for the bullies. I used to get so angry when people would do/say things to me that I'd blow up and yell at them. It was pathetic, and I'm sure it was hilarious to my assailants. As soon as I took that "blow up" reaction from them they quit messing with me.
  2. If your son is relatively calm, then have him feed off their jeers and make it fun for everyone. I've read about the funny crap your son says, (he's got your sense of humor for sure), and I bet he could pull this off eventually.
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1. Always works, but ya gotta have thick skin and a decent amount of confidence to stand there and take it without expression. It sounds like this is part of what his son struggles with.

2. Also tends to work. But, while it might keep you safe from the bullies, it can backfire in other ways. When you're always making fun of yourself to keep others from making fun of you, your self-esteem can take a pretty big hit. It's no mystery why so many comedians battle depression. Many of them became comedians, not because they were born funny, but as a coping mechanism for stuff like this. To double it up, they start existing behind this smokescreen/safety wall of self-deprecating humor which only reinforces the notion that they aren't good enough just the way they are... only when they are making people laugh at their own expense.

Sadly, in cases like this, the only real thing that can keep a kid safe is having confidence. But it's so hard to build that up when you are always being shot down.


SixPapaCharlie said:
So we met w/ the director of the program and learned that our son is one of many this kid has hit.
The kid actually hit a teacher. The school called the kid's dad in and dad said "Well that teacher sort of resembles my older daughter and they never get along so I can see why he would do that" So he is being raised by an idiot.

This kid and 2 others are apparently problems to a lot of other kids and a lot of other parents have brought it to the school's attention. The school has told the parents of all three that the kids will be removed from the program if there is another incident. That's good I guess. We still have to work on some things that fall into the "how not to be a target" category.
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If this has been going on for a while, I doubt they intend to do much about it. If possible, have them put in writing their intentions to remove the kids if there is another incident. Then hold them to it when the inevitable next incident occurs.
 
My grand daughter at the age of 6 was trying to sit down on the bus. No one would give her a seat. She to is trained in self defense. When she tried to sit down this older girl got in her face. My six year old grand daughter put her down with a black eye. Guess who got suspended.....

But I find it really funny you post this here. Read some of my posts on this forum and I am your son...Now if you do not get this point I feel for you.
Tony
 
Cajun_Flyer said:
It's as good of a place as any. Anything useful to add, or just here to show everyone the giant stick up your ass?
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So do you have anything based on logic or argument to back up your statement that it is "as good as place as any", besides taking the opportunity to insult me? You know, one of the symptoms of someone who knows they have no intellectual response is they resort to cheap insults like that. A fairly pathetic insult at that. Maybe try again? I will give you a do over this time.
 
Everskyward said:
Adults acting like... um, children. Kinda ironic for this thread. ;)
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Sorry, I am the friend who sticks up for my other friends when a bully enters the scene - even an internet bully. I'll behave and/or take any further interactions out to the train tracks behind the football field ;)
 
Cavorter said:
So do you have anything based on logic or argument to back up your statement that it is "as good as place as any", besides taking the opportunity to insult me? You know, one of the symptoms of someone who knows they have no intellectual response is they resort to cheap insults like that. A fairly pathetic insult at that. Maybe try again? I will give you a do over this time.
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Naaa, I kinda liked her original response, since you appear to be the ONLY one in this 5 page thread questioning the OP's choice of venue. When you have a problem, before you consult an 'expert' *most* people discuss it amongst their friends. Even their internet friends.

Bryan, I know some people who know some people with baseball bats, you know, if it comes to that...
 
Been thru this in grade school myself. My brother was an animal and took no crap. Mom wanted me not to fight so I was warned not to. Kids figured it out and started wailing on me. After a particularly bad few days dad took me down the cellar and showed me how to punch. I told him I would get in trouble he told me not to worry about it and he would take care of it. Sure enough one of the bullies cornered me the next day and hit me. I unleashed a punch straight to his nose and blood splattered everywhere. The kid started crying, a teacher came over and told me to go play and took the kid away. I never heard another word about it. This kid was a slow learner so I had to wail him a few times. But others saw this and the bullying stopped. It's really the only way to stop it especially at that age. I had a few more fights up to high school. Won most of them lost a few but once the bully realised they were going to get hit back it stopped. One or two times it would be 2 or 3 on 1. In those cases I had to wait and get the leader alone. They were rarely that tough by themselves and I would remind them their buddies would not be around all the time. I stopped fighting by high school as people seemed to become more reasonable, getting hit hurt a lot more and it was much easier to de escalate. Most of the reprobates flunked out by then too. Bryan, I would tell your son not to allow himself to be hit again and if someone tries again to take him out.
 
Cajun_Flyer said:
Sorry, I am the friend who sticks up for my other friends when a bully enters the scene - even an internet bully. I'll behave and/or take any further interactions out to the train tracks behind the football field ;)
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When someone is being an internet bully here on the site, please ignore them and/or report them. Escalating the situation is exactly what they want you to do, and why they troll.
 
Everskyward said:
When someone is being an internet bully here on the site, please ignore them and/or report them. Escalating the situation is exactly what they want you to do, and why they troll.
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Correct. But that in no way compares to getting punched in the face by a bully.
 
Everskyward said:
But the same type personalities are in play.
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Your argument is that bullies and those who fight back against them are the same type of personalities? I disagree.

One is doing it to just be a jerk and, usually, because they are extremely insecure. The other is simply trying to defend themselves or another person. Running off and telling the teacher is all well and good, but you see how far it's gotten Bryan and other parents. Agreed that ignoring is usually the best option, but even that sometimes doesn't cut it (in real life, at least - much easier on interweb forums).
 
Cajun_Flyer said:
Your argument is that bullies and those who fight back against them are the same type of personalities? I disagree.
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That's not what my argument was.

I was making the point that internet bullies and real-life bullies probably have similar personalities.

My tactic would be to ignore both of them. Fighting back may be fine if you know you can beat them, but I was physically small as a kid, as I am now.
 
Everskyward said:
That's not what my argument was.

I was making the point that internet bullies and real-life bullies probably have similar personalities.

My tactic would be to ignore both of them. Fighting back may be fine if you know you can beat them, but I was physically small as a kid, as I am now.
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Gotcha. I misunderstood you, sorry.

I was scrawny and awkward growing up. I could have never taken anyone on. Since I was kind of weak physically, I had to counter that by becoming strong mentally and emotionally. Middle school was tough. High school got better for a while, but then kinda bad again at the end (mostly physical harassment by boys). Unfortunately it wasn't until college that my skin really thickened. It wasn't a gradual thing, though. I remember the day exactly.

I was a waitress and I sucked at my job, mostly because I was always being **** on (yeah, i know that just got filtered out) by everyone I worked with because I was quiet and passive. Not good traits in the restaurant industry. So I was always a wreck when I was there. The cooks were the worst of the bunch. Apparently they thought I was hot, so when they weren't talking down to me, barking rudely at me, etc, they were showering me with perverted comments.

One day I went back in the kitchen to make a couple salads for some customers when one of them screamed out, "Oh, let's see how she screws this one up! hahahaha" then another responded, "But at least her tits are gonna look good while she does it! hahaha" Couple waiters smirked and the busboy joined in on the laughter. I don't know why I chose that day at that time to snap, but I definitely, definitely, definitely snapped.

It was glorious! :)

I don't remember what I said exactly, but I remember staring them each down as I went on my tirade, and I remember all of their shocked, confused and somewhat proud of me facial expressions. It worked, too. The jokes stopped, my coworkers started respecting me (though I never respected them) and I actually got better at my job. At least until I quit a few months later.

I guess I should have a higher tolerance for jerks and, instead of calling them out for having sticks up their backsides, just ignore them completely. But I really stopped giving many damns a long time ago and sometimes it's good to call those kind of people out.
 
Take my comments as a grain of salt as I don't have kids but here it goes. I see a lot of young parents these days blaming schools or teachers for everything. Let's be honest, they can't see everything and react to everything. I have one friend who's kids are WILD! They get away with everything because in her words "they are just kids". Every time the school send a letter home or puts one of the kids in detention or time out she flips out all over facebook on the school. Back to the topic, kids are smart they do bad stuff when they know they aren't being watched. If I was in the same situation I would either move my kid to a private school with smaller class sizes, or figure out how to help them fit in better and not be harassed. If they elected to stay in the school and couldn't find a way to fit in, I would teach them how to kick butt. Bullying will never stop and will only get worse the more attention you bring to it. The only way it's stops is to get caught, get your butt kicked or embarrassed, or to learn how to not let it bother you. More often then not if you play along or ignore it they will stop getting a rise out of them.
 
About a year ago, maybe two, I was working with a woman that's also a special needs teacher in a middle school. The students she has to work with tend to be violent. Not all of them can control themselves. She's been in situations where she's been physically hit, punched, grabbed, whatever. She said she's not allowed to do much about it, if she touches the students she could get fired if the parents find out. She is allowed to protect herself, but that can be hard to do without touching the student. Even pushing the kid away could be viewed negatively. She and her previous Principal went around and around on that issue. Her new Principal told her to do whatever she needed to do for her own protection, and if there was ever a problem his report would show that she never touched the kid.

I couldn't do it.
 
Matthew said:
About a year ago, maybe two, I was working with a woman that's also a special needs teacher in a middle school. The students she has to work with tend to be violent. Not all of them can control themselves. She's been in situations where she's been physically hit, punched, grabbed, whatever. She said she's not allowed to do much about it, if she touches the students she could get fired if the parents find out. She is allowed to protect herself, but that can be hard to do without touching the student. Even pushing the kid away could be viewed negatively. She and her previous Principal went around and around on that issue. Her new Principal told her to do whatever she needed to do for her own protection, and if there was ever a problem his report would show that she never touched the kid.

I couldn't do it.
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Sounds like a tough job. I hate to point this out, but it's a very different scenario than what's being discussed, and anyone going into that job knows it's coming.

We have a pediatric psych Doc (female) who's a close family friend. Normal societal rules don't apply much in the psych ward. If they did, most of the patients would be imprisoned.
 
denverpilot said:
Sounds like a tough job. I hate to point this out, but it's a very different scenario than what's being discussed, and anyone going into that job knows it's coming.

We have a pediatric psych Doc (female) who's a close family friend. Normal societal rules don't apply much in the psych ward. If they did, most of the patients would be imprisoned.
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I know it's different, but in some ways it's the same. The school, the parents, the district, and the lawyers, all seem be be involved in such a way that nobody has the sense to just say, "Wait a minute, this kid hits people and we let it go on?"
 
Everskyward said:
That's not what my argument was.

I was making the point that internet bullies and real-life bullies probably have similar personalities.

My tactic would be to ignore both of them. Fighting back may be fine if you know you can beat them, but I was physically small as a kid, as I am now.
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Here I thought the internet bullies were the small kids.....No? o_O
 
Matthew said:
I know it's different, but in some ways it's the same. The school, the parents, the district, and the lawyers, all seem be be involved in such a way that nobody has the sense to just say, "Wait a minute, this kid hits people and we let it go on?"
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Very different. Districts don't get more money for bullies... they do get more money for special needs kids.

In a twisted way, your friend's job probably ceases to exist if the crazy kids didn't try to hit, bite, scratch, and kick her every day.

That's the opinion of the psyche doc anyway... she jokes that it'd be hard to get paid if her patients weren't crazy.

Me, I've hung out with too many ER nurses over the years and have their sense of humor now. "Oh look! We've got a biter! And you know what that means! Welcome to the restraints there, chief!"
 
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Cajun_Flyer said:
It's as good of a place as any. Anything useful to add, or just here to show everyone the giant stick up your ass?

Agree with all of this.

1. Always works, but ya gotta have thick skin and a decent amount of confidence to stand there and take it without expression. It sounds like this is part of what his son struggles with.

2. Also tends to work. But, while it might keep you safe from the bullies, it can backfire in other ways. When you're always making fun of yourself to keep others from making fun of you, your self-esteem can take a pretty big hit. It's no mystery why so many comedians battle depression. Many of them became comedians, not because they were born funny, but as a coping mechanism for stuff like this. To double it up, they start existing behind this smokescreen/safety wall of self-deprecating humor which only reinforces the notion that they aren't good enough just the way they are... only when they are making people laugh at their own expense.

Sadly, in cases like this, the only real thing that can keep a kid safe is having confidence. But it's so hard to build that up when you are always being shot down.




If this has been going on for a while, I doubt they intend to do much about it. If possible, have them put in writing their intentions to remove the kids if there is another incident. Then hold them to it when the inevitable next incident occurs.
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I'm so sorry you are faced with something like this. I wish I could give you some outstanding advice, but I can't.

I would bet that a young man with such a great family will get through this tough time.
 
We are pulling the kids from this program next month.
Dad Question 2 coming soon.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
We are pulling the kids from this program next month.
Dad Question 2 coming soon.
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Very unfortunate Bryan, I'm generally not litigious, but I'd consider it in this case were I you, I'm willing to bet your kid isn't the only one dealing with this. No one should have to put up with this.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
We are pulling the kids from this program next month.
Dad Question 2 coming soon.
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Not surprising given the response this far.

Agree with the comments of considering taking this up the ranks. The school is basically betting that the bully's parents will cause more trouble than you will.
 
Bryan, our children are the most precious things in our lives. We want to protect them, nurture, coddle and love them to no end . But, they have to grow up. The one thing we want them to do but also font want them to do. They will experience everything we did as children at the same time. Our fist reaction is to shield them from as much of it as we can. We also need to its step back and let them sort it out, let them make the choices and deal with the reprecussions. I have four children. 13,8,2,1 years old. They are all different and they have all experienced things that the others haven't. I have watched the two older ones, both boys, deal with bullies. Right in our neighborhood. I just sat back and let the cards fall as they may, children are rubbery both in body and even more so in mind. Children have amazing powers when they are around other children and if you remember your youth, they have a way of sorting things out.
When we step in as parents like in this case, we are trying to protect them and shield them. There is a limit that we should set for ourselves. If we make too much out of it then they will replicate this as well. As a parent, it is best sometimes to ask them about it, ask them how they feel or how they are going to handle it and leave it up to them to bring to us how much of a hurdle this may be. If we keep pushing and pushing them they will replicate this. I have to keep telling myself that my child is not the only one, that the school has to look after many children and cannot always be holding my child's hand.
Children just want to be children, they do not have the same feelings stat we do, they do not worry like we do, they do not care about many of the things that we consider. They want to be children, much of this is finding their place in the world around them, some find it to be sports, some ride bikes or skateboards and some want to harass others. We need to respect this as this is how the child kingdom works. Your son will be just fine, he will learn from this and he will use this as a way to grow. You have talked to him much about this I can tell but take a step back and look at the bigger picture. Think of this for a minute, it is like a baseball team, some are going to be catchers, some pitchers, some will be able to play right field or shortstop. Not every one can play second base, not everyone can be the star hitter. Somewhere on that field there is a position that he will fit in and be able to play that will continue to the team and make the team Better.
I hope the best for you and your family, I really do. Give the kid a big high five for us. Remember, life will go on and everything will work out in the end.
 
Acrodustertoo said:
Bryan, our children are the most precious things in our lives. We want to protect them, nurture, coddle and love them to no end . But, they have to grow up. The one thing we want them to do but also font want them to do. They will experience everything we did as children at the same time. Our fist reaction is to shield them from as much of it as we can. We also need to its step back and let them sort it out, let them make the choices and deal with the reprecussions. I have four children. 13,8,2,1 years old. They are all different and they have all experienced things that the others haven't. I have watched the two older ones, both boys, deal with bullies. Right in our neighborhood. I just sat back and let the cards fall as they may, children are rubbery both in body and even more so in mind. Children have amazing powers when they are around other children and if you remember your youth, they have a way of sorting things out . . .
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When I hear all that, I understand where you're coming from. However, I'm also reminded of Edmund Burke's famous words: "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." There's no reason to sit idly by while your kid (or anyone else's) deals with daily torment at the hands of others. If the bully is problem, be a f**cking adult and correct it. If that's by broadcasting it all over social media, drawing up a lawsuit with the bully's parents/school, or by teaching your kid to go full-on ape**** on the bully, so be it.
 
I agree. I am all for letting them sort some things out. We try not to be helicopter parents. We let them roam the neighborhood and ride their bikes and do all the things that we did with some minor limitations. And I generally ask them how they want to solve their problem. This is been an ongoing thing that doesn't seem to be getting resolved. So there comes a point where you step in and I think we're at that point.
 
SoonerAviator said:
When I hear all that, I understand where you're coming from. However, I'm also reminded of Edmund Burke's famous words: "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." There's no reason to sit idly by while your kid (or anyone else's) deals with daily torment at the hands of others. If the bully is problem, be a f**cking adult and correct it. If that's by broadcasting it all over social media, drawing up a lawsuit with the bully's parents/school, or by teaching your kid to go full-on ape**** on the bully, so be it.
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The wonderful world of kid-dom!

ps. how did ape**** not get oppressed?
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I agree. I am all for letting them sort some things out. We try not to be helicopter parents. We let them roam the neighborhood and ride their bikes and do all the things that we did with some minor limitations. And I generally ask them how they want to solve their problem. This is been an ongoing thing that doesn't seem to be getting resolved. So there comes a point where you step in and I think we're at that point.
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Is the problem at the school or outside of it? There is always the option of grabbing that little puke by the throat and ringing his head off of a lamp post !

Our oldest boy is a bit quiet and not a outgoing type, he is very gentle and easy going. I have had to step in once and grabbed the little puke to let him know what would eventually happen if he didn't cease being a clown. Then I had at our boy with even more explicit warnings about what he should have done.
It is unfortunate but it happens. I have no problem protecting my family and all that comes with it, if the law sees it other ways then it will pay off to be a Mason.

I am sorry you are having to uproot the child Bryan. You should not have to reroute your lives for one little prick.
 
Acrodustertoo said:
As a parent, it is best sometimes to ask them about it, ask them how they feel or how they are going to handle it and leave it up to them to bring to us how much of a hurdle this may be.
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That's fine in the beginning, but once you see a pattern it's time to get involved. If not, the kids can suffer long-term psychological issues. It's not like when we were kids where parents usually said "kids will be kids" and just let us solve our problems. These days, the bullying seems more cruel and brutal. And the kids seem to be more sensitive/emotional/"weak-minded" and not able to handle it. Maybe that's just my biased point of view as a parent. You definitely need to put more pressure on the school administrators. If they don't help, go to the Board of Ed. It should not go past that, but next there's Congressman or woman, they can put a lot of pressure on the public schools.

These days, they bully with text messages and insta-gram. I wanted to take away my daughters' cell phones but my wife thinks they need phones for emergencies. And we noticed that one of my daughters fell into a weird "depression" and we had to get her counseling. The counselor said that she had an extreme fear of being bullied which was always on her mind prevented her from concentrating in school. Once I brought the counselor's report to the school and mentioned a lawsuit for failure to provide a safe learning environment, the bullying stopped almost immediately. The school can stop bullying but they choose not to due to laziness.

My daughters were bullied at various points in grade school. Like somebody said, with girls it's not physical but cruel verbal and emotional abuse. We spoke to teachers but that usually got us nowhere. Once we escalated it to the administrators, it was usually squashed pretty quickly. Remember, these principals don't want to lose their cushy 6-figure job, so they will usually put a stop to it. I have an older step daughter who is very small and looks really young "looks like a chipmunk but is tough as a tiger". She's 4'10" maybe 85 lbs and joined the wrestling team. She took down this "huge"(next to her) 140 lb girl one day. She got picked on once, when she moved to the new school, but after she left the girl in a bloody mess in the lunch room, she never had problems again. My youngest (in 6th grade) is still having a bully push her after school once in a while. My step daughter says that next time, she'll take care of it.

Last thing that I would do is to pull my kids out of a program or disrupt their education due to some other kids.

Last resort out of desperation is like these guys:
http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/article9106298.html
http://metro.co.uk/2016/11/03/fathe...n-nose-after-attacking-him-at-school-6231607/
http://dailycaller.com/2014/06/03/t...kid-for-bullying-his-9-year-old-autistic-son/
 
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