Dad advice needed. Question 1

well, I aint in 7th grade anymore..........my punch back then was about as powerful as a fly landing on a wall. but now I got the 5 point palm exploding heart technique down pat. that's real, ask @SmashTime , he'll tell ya.
 
Bryan it's a serous problem in this country, bullying. Much of it is online on social sites causing kids to resort to suicide. As for your boy, you sound like a wonderful Dad and support your son. Definitely make the school aware that they're failing. More parents need to do this. Teachers/Administrators are in charge and supervise kids so they need to be aware and held responsible. A lot of good advice so far, but it is very difficult to come up with a solution.

Your son needs to understand that hitting back in self-defense is ok. As others have said, you'd be surprised what happens after one hits a bully. Often the bully and your child become friends. I really had no fights growing up but it was a different time. But I remember one neighborhood bully that taunted and picked on me almost daily when I was in 6th grade (course I was 18 in 6th grade) but one day I guess I had enough, and punched the kid. One punch. The Bully never bothered me again. Point being most bullys will lay off if you give it back to them. I hope it doesn't come to that with your son, but it may.

Good luck man.
 
My daughter was bullied by a boy in the 6th grade. Since she was already a head taller than the boy, I asked her if she could win the fight. She was confident she could. I gave her permission to engage the fight the next time she was bullied. I also told her to tell the kid that after she whupped him, she was going to tell everyone that she, a girl, beat her up. At that age, that is the nuclear option! A bully can't lose face like that! When the time came, she moved in for the battle and the kid ran away. End of problem....
 
My daughter taught in a couple of different high schools. One was the "not good" school and one was the "good" school. Different kids, different parents, different social class levels, different levels of expectation, but very similar problems. Kids are still kids and will cause problems wherever they are.

Part of the difficulties she ran into at the "good" school was that the kids had very different attitudes, whether they were entitlement attitudes or that they felt they could get away with things because of who they were or who their parents were. Not a problem at the other school, I think she actually enjoyed working with some of those kids better. Many of those kids were self-motivated because they wanted to get out of an abusive family situation, or they wanted to not have to live at their friend's house because mom or dad was on drugs, or whatever the deal was. Those kids had learned that they were the only ones who were looking out for them and they were using that to motivate themselves to achieve something better. The kids at the "good" school were nearly opposite of that; they were smarter, they had more expensive toys, and they didn't have to work for any of it.
 
I've raised one daughter who turned the other cheek her entire life and she's now in college and doing great. My second daughter is 14, and she won't take anything off of anyone and she struggles in life. There isn't a playbook since we're all different. You hear some people say they beat their kids because they were beat by their parents and that's all they knew. Personally I was beat by my Dad and I know how it feels, so I didn't do that to my kids. Everyone handles things differently.

From what you've told us about your son, he will be fine. He'll be a target early in life, but he'll learn ways to deal with things that most will never know. The best advice I could give is to avoid as many situations as he can. A bully wants an audience and they want you to respond. You getting involved may only make things worse. Of course if someone was hurting him physically, you'd want him to defend himself or for an adult to help him. Like I said, there's no rule book.
 
The problem is that he is so nice, he isn't going to fight back. You can't make him fight.

But you can confront the parents of the other kids. As an adult, you can put them into a position where you are defending yourself and kick the **** out of them if you know what I'm saying.

Nothing will cause a dad to correct his sons behavior like beating the snot out of him. Think about it - if your son was the bully and someone kicked your ass for it, you'd correct your son right?

I'm nervous about the same thing, but for different reasons. My son is not the super nice, always do the right thing kid and he loses his temper sometimes, but he is easily turned timid and he checks out. That makes me think he will be bullied too.
 
I went to private school from K-8th grade and I faced similar problems. We had bullies in the school, the school never did anything about them. I did retaliate a couple of times and it did work to some degree. Honestly, the age from where your son is through 14 or so were the worst years of my life. Well, 2007 sucked, but there is absolutely no amount of money or anything that could get me to relive those childhood years. They just sucked. But being an adult is great, I really am happy here.

I have a theory about life that if your childhood is truly super happy, you'll probably be an unhappy adult. Conversely those who had more challenging childhoods have better adulthoods. None of that helps your kid now, but it's true. You know this, I know this (I don't know if hearing it from a 3rd party would help, but I'm glad to share my story with him).

Changing schools would be a good idea, but if you can get him away from the bad kids by taking him out of certain programs, then that's a good start. My problems were in private school rather than public so I disagree that getting out of public school is in itself a solution, but if he's in a toxic environment, changing that environment will probably help. There's also a lesson here, since you want to teach him to get out of toxic environments when he's in them (relationships, jobs, etc.).

However trying to teach him not to put stock into what others think of him is really key. This is a hard lesson to learn, but is important. Are there other activities that you can put him in with better kids? Perhaps with different circles outside of school? I was involved in several activities at church (kids choir, became an acolyte in high school, and also played pipe organ from ages 10 through graduating HS). Those provided me with a separate circle of friends. This was helpful for me. A lot of times I think it's easy to feel that your ONLY circle is school. Obviously he's really generous and caring, are there activities he can participate in that harness that and will get some recognition from other groups/friends?

You said he just won't end up hitting anyone, but maybe trying to teach him John Wayne's advice "Don't start a fight, but if you find yourself in one, I suggest you make damn sure you win." Maybe watch some old John Wayne movies with him?

Mostly I'm sorry that your son has to go through this. Been there done that, and it sucks. My mom was no help at all, so your son has that going for him - a great support network with some excellent parents. I'm sure that we'll have to deal with this with our kids at some point once they're in school, and honestly it's the part I am really dreading, especially having been through it as a kid. But my wife was a tough farm girl and didn't have those issues, so I'm hoping the kids got those genes. I really had to learn to stand up for myself.
 
SkyHog said:
But you can confront the parents of the other kids. As an adult, you can put them into a position where you are defending yourself and kick the **** out of them if you know what I'm saying.

Nothing will cause a dad to correct his sons behavior like beating the snot out of him. Think about it - if your son was the bully and someone kicked your ass for it, you'd correct your son right?
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Sounds like a great way to end up in jail for assault.
 
chances are the bully parents won't give a crap.
What if you called the cops and had them do a report for assault, include a pic of your kids face. I suppose they will contact the bully parents. Maybe it'll convince the other parents to chat with bully kid. Other options of private school, self defense are still on the table.
 
To all who are advocating punching back, you need to recognize the reality. Plenty have stories of where they stood up to the bully and the bully backs down. But that isn't always, and probably not even mostly the reality. There are bullies who are the bigger kid and punching back might not end with the storybook tale. Fighting, for me, was very common growing up but there were some fights that got horrifically violent. Two of the most violent ones I witnessed were in the 4th and 5th grade. One kid was hospitalized and out for over a month and the other was one of the more violent scenes in my memory. Thinking of those still churns my stomach. There were similar occurances in high school. I have a family member who got in very serious trouble fighting for a video when the other kid got knocked out and hospitalized. And that was just goofing around being silly.

My point is that advising a 9 year old to go fight back is foolish counsel in today's environment. There are times to stand up to the bully but the blanket advice of fighting back may do more harm than good. This is time for dad to step in and ensure that it stops. If that doesn't work, the poor kid needs to be moved.
 
SkyHog said:
Nothing will cause a dad to correct his sons behavior like beating the snot out of him. Think about it - if your son was the bully and someone kicked your ass for it, you'd correct your son right?
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Nope, if your son has a violent behavior it likely comes from their environment, typically the parent(s). If the child is that way, good chance the mother or father displays many of the same character traits and so they wouldn't retaliate against their kid, they'd go back to the parent who confronted them.

Usually kids who bully have had some type of life event occur, whether it be a death in the family, a divorce etc., which has driven them to be the way they are. Chances are if the kids are screwed up their parents are the same way.

Remember, the apple doesn't fall too far from the tree.
 
BTDT, survived. And by survived, I sucked it up until college, then my life really began. Mom was in depression most of her life, and dad was a workaholic, so neither did anything to help. C'est la vie. I've never been back to a high school reuinion, could care less as that part of my life is a total write-off.

Try to help him, tell him he's loved, do what you can. What worked for me was going to college far away, at total life reset. Maybe not private school, but maybe a magnet school, those schools tend to be filled with a better cut of kid, certainly more in line with your son's values. Whatever it is, don't stop trying.
 
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SkyHog said:
Not if you make it self defense. If the kids are this way, so are the dads.

Give them the chance to start it and you can finish it
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Like I said, sounds like a good way to end up in jail for assault. Even if you win the case, you still end up in jail and have that on your record. No thanks. Plus you're also assuming you win the fight. I wouldn't place that bet on myself, and I doubt Bryan would place that bet on himself, either. Confronting the parents by itself isn't a bad idea, but your method is.

Bill Jennings said:
BTDT, survived. And by survived, I sucked it up until college, then my life really began. Mom was in depression most of her life, and dad was a workaholic, so neither did anything to help. C'est la vie. I've never been back to a high school reuinion, could care less as that part of my life is a total write-off.

Try to help him, tell him he's loved, do what you can. What worked for me was going to college far away, at total life reset. Maybe not private school, but maybe a magnet school, those schools tend to be filled with a better cut of kid, certainly more in line with your son's values. Whatever it is, don't stop trying.
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Agreed. My high school was a magnet school. I got punched in the face once early freshman year. One of my best friends was a Siberian who was in Fight Club (literally) and he "had a talk" with the kid who punched me. Nobody laid a finger on me the remaining 4 years.

Going to college far away helped as well. Going to a magnet high school and getting out of private school helped (again, a total reset with new friends - it also helped that everyone was starting that high school fresh).
 
Your son is 9yo and you are on question #1...good job.

I have a 14yo son. I understand your son knows karate, and I support self defense, but as you know, some 9 yo are 70 lbs and others are 125 lbs already. If your son needs to defend himself, hopefully it's fair and other "friends" of the bully don't step in and make the scene ugly.
 
Man, not being a parent, I don't have much for you. I don't think private school is the answer. You cant put your kids in little bubbles to protect them (making the assumption that a private school is a bubble) and expect them to come out self sufficient in the long run. Private schools just have entitled bullies raised by entitled parents instead of regular bullies.

The karate classes are ok, but after watching a couple of my (step) granddaughter's classes,, I'm not sure the kids or the instructors take it too seriously any more. Even some of the 'upper' belts had really poor technique and absolutely no power. I appreciate the tradition and the respect aspect, but what they were teaching wont work in the real world. If youre looking for a more self defense aspect wrestling, judo, or jujitsu are far better. You cant fake those and it prepares you for real hands-on contact with another human being.

I was kinda the 'sensitive, timid' kid in school so I know where he is coming from. Unlike you, my father was no real help. He was an old-school cop and didn't have much sympathy for sensitivity. I got over it at some point. I think I'm still somewhat sensitive but I WILL punch you in the face if you need it.

Keep doing what youre doing. Stay on the school for support. Youre doing a great job in spite of how it feels.
 
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I was a painfully skinny, unathletic kid with thick glasses, in other words, a bully magnet. In addition to being bullied at school I had an older sibling who bullied me at home, so I got it coming and going. I've done a lot of thinking over the years as to what the best way to respond to that sort of abuse would be, and I think that there are a couple of things you can try. First, your son needs to understand some people are just jerks, and there's nothing he can do about their behavior other than to make it unrewarding to make him their victim. It sounds like he wants to be accepted in this after school group, but he really needs to let go of that idea, because that gives them power over him, and the more he cares, the worse they will treat him. There seem to be a lot of guys who think that resorting to a fight is the best way to deal with a bully. If you can administer an @ss whooping, that may very well work, but if the end result is that you get beaten up, you've just made things worse. Instead, he needs to develop a sharp tongue. If someone mouths off to him, he needs to be able to respond in kind.

He needs to find acceptance somewhere else. Is there something else he's interested in that you can get him involved in? You said he's good at karate, can he get more involved in that, or is there something else he's interested in? It would be helpful if it was something cool like BMX or kart racing. That's really what kids are looking for, acceptance in a group, and if he gets that somewhere, he'll be more self confident and less interesting to bullies. The less he cares about what they think, the less power they have over him.

As far at that private vs public school thing goes, I went to both, and I got far worse in private school than in public. Private school cliques tend to be very insular, and if you're not part of one by early elementary school your chances of being accepted into one are pretty low. Also when I lived in the southern part of the country the bullying was a lot worse than when in the northern part.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
You said he just won't end up hitting anyone, but maybe trying to teach him John Wayne's advice "Don't start a fight, but if you find yourself in one, I suggest you make damn sure you win." Maybe watch some old John Wayne movies with him?
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Nah. A real man will show his son Gladiator movies. Uh huh, that's right.

 
SkyHog said:
As an adult, you can put them into a position where you are defending yourself and kick the **** out of them if you know what I'm saying.

Nothing will cause a dad to correct his sons behavior like beating the snot out of him. Think about it - if your son was the bully and someone kicked your ass for it, you'd correct your son right?
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I hope this is some kind of false bravado, because your idea contributes to the problem. It certainly doesn't resolve it. The tough guy attitude is for the immature and those who are incapable of handling their problems in an adult fashion.
 
FormerHangie said:
Instead, he needs to develop a sharp tongue. If someone mouths off to him, he needs to be able to respond in kind.
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That's a good point and something that has served me well in a number of environments.
 
mscard88 said:
I usually got in trouble for that, especially my HS football coach, and later a Chief Pilot lol. And then here a few times, getting banned by y'all! ;) :D
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The trick is knowing WHEN to use it. ;)
 
Oh, Lord, you sure can string some words together. My heart was breaking for both you and your kiddo.

My approach to that kind of thing is similar to yours. If you start something, then you and I have a problem. If someone else starts something, then I fully expect you to finish it. You're also spot-on about kids and parenting in general. It goes back to the Baby Boomers not wanting to be the hard-@sses their parents were, but their parents were that way because of the crap they had just gone through. So I blame all this on Hitler.

Y'all are in Northwest ISD, right? It really is a good a good school district. You're going to find turds everywhere, and it's a fine line between letting the kids learn how to navigate the turd minefield of life, and jumping in to rescue them. When talking with the school, definitely shoehorn the "bullying" word as often as you can get it in. That's one of the trigger words that makes school administrators run around like a Benny Hill intro.

Private school isn't always the answer, but I can tell you it was for us. My wife is a HS teacher, and I often said "I didn't like teenagers when I was one. I sure as hell don't like them as an adult!". But when we ended up at this school, I saw some really cool things happening. At the school football games, the HS kids were high-fiving the younger kids, and stopping to ask them how their year is going. They were speaking respectfully to each other and to the adults. I literally stopped watching the game and just watched these kids in utter amazement. I also saw entire classes of kids turn on a kid that was trying to bully and pick on someone. If you have an administration that cares, then they have a lot more latitude to take care of problems.

Wish you guys weren't so far north. Sounds like mini-6PC would be a great addition to our little school. Sadly, it probably will take him bowing up and punching someone to get the bullies to lay off.

Good luck to you guys!
 
Seems like one takeaway is that a lot of us pilots were bullied as kids.
 
Matthew said:
And NOW look at us, driving trucks, rebuilding tractors, arguing about BBQ, ...
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Yep, we're all grown up. ;)

Goes back to what I said about people who have difficult childhoods often have the best adulthoods.
 
Unfortunately, "knowing karate" and knowing how to fight are two separate things. If the kid isn't a fighter at heart, self defence training isn't going to do a whole lot. I have been fortunate not to have had to deal with those issues from the standpoint of a parent.

But as a kid, I was the white kid in a nearly all black junior high school, and this was not in a kumbaya happy neighborhood. Needless to say I learned to fight. But you can't fight every battle. When knives and iron pipes come out, or you are outnumbered or outclassed, you GTFO.

I don't have any solid advice for 6PC, other than his son is in a bad environment and it's probably best to get him out. I've seen action as an Infantry soldier, and without a doubt that time in junior high was worse.
 
You can read the comments section of most internet sites and realize that there are plenty of adult bullies. These people are raising children who hear what they are saying.
 
Sometimes I fought, sometimes I didn't. The best protection against bullies is to have friends. If a bully approaches gather your friends. Unfortunately just about everyone gets bullied. There is no one solution. With kids that age, I think fighting back is ok. They rarely actually harm each other. The Karate idea is a good one. Underneath, bullies are chickenshits...

Best solution is to get some boxing gloves and helmets and let them box each other. They do that, and they'll never fight at school again.
 
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Sac Arrow said:
I've seen action as an Infantry soldier, and without a doubt that time in junior high was worse.
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As much as I boast on our little school and how impressed I am with the elementary kids and HS kids ... my oldest son is in middle school, and middle school just sucks, no matter where it is.
 
Bryan with a Y,

Step back and realize that bullying has been a problem since Christ was a corporal. You saw it, your dad saw it, your grandad saw it etc, etc. So it shouldn't come as a surprise that your son is now experiencing it. Here's another tip, your son's children will see it as well. Private school isn't going to change that, moving to Minnesota isn't going to change that. What was the line in the movie A Christmas Story? I paraphrase but it was something like, "if your aren't a bully, your part of the multitude of those being bullied." Right now you are seeing it as a parent, this is new to you and you may feel as if you'll let your kid down if you don't do something about it.
You can only control you and yours. Talk to you kid about it. Ask HIM what he would like you to do after you go over the options with him such as talk to the school officials, talk to the bully's parents, talk to the bully. I'm willing to bet that he won't go for the last two options. It has been said and I believe this that bullying is for people who have no confidence at all. Remember that bullies are scared of you because you have something that they don't. Don't let a bully's words affect you because they are the ones needing confidence, not you.
Finally, what is he going to karate classes for? Discipline and defending himself right? Give him permission to put all that money you're spending of classes to good use - as a last resort and AFTER of course you've spoken to the school and given fair warning.

I was bullied at school. This big kid got hit by a paper wad in the gym thrown by someone I was sitting with. The bully came up to me since I was the smallest and asked who threw the paper wad. I told him that I wasn't going to tell him. This went on for three days until one of his minions warned me that the bully was going to be at my locker and if I didn't tell him who threw the paper wad, he was going to kick my arse. Sure enough, I got to my locker and there he was. He said, "Becker, I'm only going to ask you one more time. Who threw the paper wad?" All I got out was, "I'm not going.." when WHAM, he hit me in the left eye and broke my glasses. A teacher was three feet away when it happened and she grabbed both of us by the collar and dragged us to the principle's office. This was back in the day of corporal punishment which I believe still should be allowed but that's a different debate. I'm droning on here but the bully got three licks and suspended for three days. I got my glasses paid for and admiration for not telling who threw the paper wad. That was 36 years ago and I'm still standing.

This too, shall pass.
 
I should probably mention the point of the karate was never to solve a sort of fighting a bullying problem. We want both of our kids to be doing things that are athletic so that exercise is always a part of their life. My son tried lots of sports but nothing really stuck. the karate seems like a good idea because in addition to being healthy we also wanted confidence. He is like a duck on water with karate and oftentimes he goes up and actually teaches the class so it build some confidence as far as public speaking and having to carry himself in a manner where he is in somewhat of a leadership role at times and it's working very well. I agree 100% the karate class really isn't going to prepare him to fight and anyway. All they do is kick while wearing lots of pads. They don't teach the children how to throw punches or wrestle or anything that you might need an actual fight.

The administrator of the program I spoke to yesterday was supposed to call me first thing this morning it's 10:30 and I've heard nothing. She's about to get her ass ripped.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
The administrator of the program I spoke to yesterday was supposed to call me first thing this morning it's 10:30 and I've heard nothing. She's about to get her ass ripped.
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She's a chicken shet Bryan. Get her!
 
I agree that dealing with bullies is a natural part of growing up. My concern is that he thinks he can or even should do something to make a bully like him. Classic enabling behavior. You son isn't being bullied because he is doing something wrong or there is something wrong with him. There's something wrong with the bully. Make sure he knows that.
 
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